Mourning Cloak Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 What I find shocking is how many people don't do their homework before they go abroad for medical school, or decide to take that leap and move to a new country. Research first, then if you like your odds, go ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 What I find shocking is how many people don't do their homework before they go abroad for medical school, or decide to take that leap and move to a new country. Research first, then if you like your odds, go ahead. Quite true I am afraid - sometime people are pushed a bit with the help of parents I guess (someone is paying for this) Still at the cost of it you would think a lot more work would be going into the prep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcard Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 What I find shocking is how many people don't do their homework before they go abroad for medical school, or decide to take that leap and move to a new country. Research first, then if you like your odds, go ahead. I can't speak for other IMGs, but I myself chose to study abroad for a combination of reasons and did do my research and was well aware of the hardships involved in returning to Canada. I personally do not expect it to be an easy ride. Some of my classmates - especially those whose parent(s) is/are practicing doctors in Canada - however, do expect to 'be at the same level as CMGs' which is surprising given that they should have more insight into this system. What I was trying to elucidate in my earlier post was the gaping discrepancies in what Carms/MCC state as requirements from IMGs (which is fine - if you come from abroad you should be prepared to jump through some hoops) and what the reality is for a successful match as an IMG (ie: someone who followed all the rules and cleared all exams required may be snubbed over someone who...well didn't.) I realize that life is unfair and this doesn't make Cdn IMGs special, but its just frustrating for an IMG like me -who wants and would LOVE to work in rural Canada, but can't, because recent immigrants (not CMGs) (who are not well versed with Cdn culture and have language barriers) are picked to fill those rural spots, sign an ROS and split the minute they fulfill their obligations. Then why even have all those rules in place for IMGs, if you're just looking for a ready-made doc fr a foreign country to fulfill your needs rather than trying to help train a Cdn IMG. Easier said than done, I know....but I'm just trying to point out the discrepancy. Alright, that's enough rambling for now. In any case, I guess someone has to be at the 'bottom of the barrel' so CMGs can feel good about their 'level'. You're welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icewine Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I can't speak for other IMGs, but I myself chose to study abroad for a combination of reasons and did do my research and was well aware of the hardships involved in returning to Canada. I personally do not expect it to be an easy ride. ++ I knew what I was getting into when I came to Australia for school, and I certainly don't expect to be treated the same as Canadian grads when it comes to matching. I think most of my Canadian classmates would agree as well. This is the biggest bunch of bull**** I've read in life, IMG's get the absolute screw-over, if they're ever allowed to compete fairly on merit against canadian medical grads instead of under the protectionist system in place right now CMG's will really start getting it in the match. Not sure about this. I think IMG's (incl. CSA's) would get shafted even more if the match were open to IMG's and CMG's equally. I reckon PD's would be inclined to choose CMG's over IMG's, everything else being roughly equal, and especially in competitive specialties. At least in the parallel match IMG's have dedicated spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloh Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 This is the biggest bunch of bull**** I've read in life, IMG's get the absolute screw-over, if they're ever allowed to compete fairly on merit against canadian medical grads instead of under the protectionist system in place right now CMG's will really start getting it in the match. Imagine the depressing state of affairs for the IMG I live with who interviewed for 1 neuro spot here, had 4 neuro recommendation letters, off the chart board scores, was a researcher at the Cleveland Clinic, has multiple publications in gastroenterology. He got rejected, but if he had been a cmg, every person interviewed for the spot plus more would have gotten spots, plus a lot fewer people would have applied. I don't think you have a proper conceptualization of the average IMG, they're not your buddy who went to Australia for med school because they couldn't get in here, they're born in countries where they don't nearly have the opportunities you do, travel to canada or the us, go through immigration hell, work as security guards for 5 years while they write all their exams, deal with prejudice and bias in the selection process... (a certain school only takes neuro img sub-specialty apps from people from a certain country etc.) 1-800-get-care Because I have none to give you. Our system sets aside ~10% of spots for IMGs - that is plenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 1-800-get-care Because I have none to give you. Our system sets aside ~10% of spots for IMGs - that is plenty. I lol'd hard at this Hahahah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renin Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Did you not match into what you wanted? Or just not matched into anything..I thought once you get into med school, it's all easy breezy.. The biggest lie. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I cant imagine applicants to non-competitive programs who can tolerate a geographic region are all that stressed for CaRMs though.. Yeaa...some people take vacations during CaRMS interview period and do all sorts of cool international electives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Yeaa...some people take vacations during CaRMS interview period and do all sorts of cool international electives. Ha! That would be fun. Too bad I always seem to be drawn to more competitive specialities. I hear neurology(?) just have everyone meet in one place and interviews people that way (or everyone doesn't have to fly all over the place). Anyone know if that is true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 You're probably thinking of the other neurology (i.e. urology). "All interviews will be conducted at the Urology Fair in Toronto at the University Club, Saturday, February 4, 2012." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven1984 Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 The only thing easy breezy in medical school is to be able to sleep with women in your medical class. Dont fall into people's lies. Could you elaborate on that? I have found that it is not quite so easy breezy to be able to sleep with women in my medical class... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 So I was reading this thread and didn't really know that much about the whole IMG deal. Can anyone explain the initial rationale in reserving IMG spots in the first round? I am totally for equal and fair competition, i.e. may the best CMG/IMG take any spot, family med or specialty. What I'm not getting is why there needs to be RESERVED spots for IMG's especially in very competitive spots. Is that basically making the assumption that ANY IMG who matches to those spots is automatically considered better than any CMG who could've wanted the spot in first round? If IMG's are truly by merit as good, then why do they need reserved spots? By merit alone, they should be able to impress enough to beat CMG's into a spot. So I guess if I'm just wondering whether this just saves the government money in the long run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 To my knowledge I doubt that the programs are 100% required to take an IMG for those spots. I think it is at the discretion of a program to accept a CMG for an IMG spot in the first round, provided that the CMG is ok with the slavery contract that comes with it. Unless you're going for ROAD and your only option is an IMG spot, don't take an IMG spot. Oh really? That's very interesting, has that happened in the past? There really is no real difference in the training, IMG and CMG residents functionally exactly the same way except for the 4 month verification process. But I guess there is ROS for IMG's. But how would that be executed, i.e. how would the CMG know they were being given a IMG spot? Do they get notified by the program pre-match day? The logistics wouldn't really work....which means they probably just take IMG or leave it open (Which is risky for program too since there may not be enough CMG's left over). So in a sense, they are kind of being required to take IMG's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebouque Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 That's how I understand it. Program X has 4 spots, one of them being an IMG spot. I think that it means that they wouldn't normally accept more than 1 IMG into their program, but they don't have to accept any. Therefore, it can either be 3 CMG + 1 IMG, or 4 CMG (or maybe more IMGs if the program gets very few applicants). It doesn't make sense that a CMG gets an IMG spot with a ROS, a CMG simply matches, period. However in Qc there's no such thing as IMG reserved spots (they just compete with CMGs) to my knowledge. Now there's a mighty judgement coming, but I may be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Well on CaRMS websites, a lot of specialties have Approximate quota for CMG and approximate quota for IMG which makes me feel that they are indeed separate streams and you can't start moving CMG's into the quota specific for IMG's. And based on personal anecdotes, I've never heard of CMG's getting the IMG spots first round. So it doesn't make sense for the program NOT to make use of the IMG spot (like of course there will be good candidates worldwide, why not make use of more residents). Which brings me back to my original question, why are there these reserved/extra IMG only spots instead of just adding more CMG OR IMG spots where the best person takes the spot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dokrbb Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 well, from what I understood I would say that this separate streams are applicable to the first Iteration only, in order to give some hope to IMGs that apply, instead they have to sign the ROS, for the second iteration it seems that all remaining spots are without the ROS, and even though the CMGs and IMGs are in the same stream, I don't want to guess how the evaluation at this stage is going on... answering to your question... - the government politics about the IMG integration seems to force some programs to post a few spots separately for this category, in order to keep some statistics about 10-12% places (theoretically) reserved to them... where is the advantage ? .....each year apply some 1500 IMGs, multiply by 700-900$ on average, and you will get one reason, and after all, some 200 IMGs would be accepted, ... and all these 1500 IMGs know these statistics very well, still each of them would think she/he would be in these first 200s - ... continue to answer to your question, programs are forced to post on they site this quotas for IMGs , but they are not forced to complete them with IMGs on first Iteration (just thought about the only spot posted for Cardiac surgery up to this year ); for some programs would be better to wait the second Iteration, and even without an ROS get in a CMG, why keep the spot for CMG? ... few of they reasons would be the language barrier for IMGs, different system of study and approach to the patient (that would take more time for IMGs to get addapted) - at least these are the reasons they speak more often about btw, I'm an IMG who asking direct questions to CMGs have gotten just scanty explanations about the admissions process for IMGs, so... 50 % of my conclusions could be subjective, another 50% - false feel free to comment on my comments, would be glad to change my point of view on this matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedPen Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 However in Qc there's no such thing as IMG reserved spots (they just compete with CMGs) to my knowledge. Now there's a mighty judgement coming, but I may be wrong In QC, IMGs can only apply in the second round unless granted express permission from the university which never happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I think IMG spots do get filled just from personal observations and those residents rarely have language barrier problems (in specialties, in family medicine, I do have to say there are sometimes more language barrier problems - and no I'm not trying to imply anything, just personal observations) because they're from Canada originally and sometimes have family members who are physicians at that school and know the system quite well. But yeah now that you say it like that, I'm sure the application fees are quite nice for the school/feds/whoever gets into it. I don't necessarily find anything functionally wrong with this system right now, but it makes me question why IMG's need to be "forced" back in this way and why they can't just compete on their own merit. Right now, many schools favor their own applicants for programs and have hidden quota ranges. How would everyone feel if suddenly someone gave extra CMG spots but enforced that they must come from School X or out of province schools? Seems absurd, eh? Not that far of an analogy. There is a reason why those schools think it benefits their programs to pick their own medical students, and there is also a reason why programs like CMG's over IMG's. Does that mean all CMG's are better or all home-school med students are better? No, but there's usually a reason and if we can respect why schools prefer their own med students without imposing quotas on them, why allow IMG quotas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedPen Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 No, but there's usually a reason and if we can respect why schools prefer their own med students without imposing quotas on them, why allow IMG quotas? Why allow IMG quotas? Because CMGs need to have a job after they graduate with $100 000+ in debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dokrbb Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Why allow IMG quotas? Because CMGs need to have a job after they graduate with $100 000+ in debt. even if I'm an IMG... That's pretty true, wouldn't be able to not agree on this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebouque Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 In QC, IMGs can only apply in the second round unless granted express permission from the university which never happens. Well it sure isn't true for some programs since I've interviewed with quite a few IMGs this cycle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Why allow IMG quotas? Because CMGs need to have a job after they graduate with $100 000+ in debt. With that argument, wouldn't the IMG need a job even more than the CMG with their $200 000+ debt? Why give them a spot where they can't find a job? Put the IMG spots in family and psych if we're going by the job argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dokrbb Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 In QC, IMGs can only apply in the second round unless granted express permission from the university which never happens. right, completly forget about this, in QC, the IMG quota is a particular one, because they require you to pass all three exams , to obtain your equivalence, and by presenting the official letter from CREPUQ to apply for the same places as CMG but still, you are allowed to apply for the first Iteration, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedPen Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Well it sure isn't true for some programs since I've interviewed with quite a few IMGs this cycle Things must have changed! How is interview season going for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedPen Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 With that argument, wouldn't the IMG need a job even more than the CMG with their $200 000+ debt? Why give them a spot where they can't find a job? Put the IMG spots in family and psych if we're going by the job argument. Because the system is designed in a way where supply = demand. If someone wants to go out of the system as an IMG, then it's not the system's problem to ensure they are taken care of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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