2nd Iteration

[justletmein]

Quick question:

 

Can you enter the 2nd iteration even if you have matched?

 

I thought that once you matched you were contractually obligated to show up on July 1, but someone was telling me that you could still apply for open spots in the second round...

[NLengr]

You are contractually required to go where you are matched.

[Lactic Folly]

Perhaps they meant after completing a year of residency, in which case there is the possibility of applying in the 2nd round, and if you match, not renewing your current residency contract.

[justletmein]

thx guys i was pretty sure they were misinformed, but wanted to be sure.

[rmorelan]

Perhaps they meant after completing a year of residency, in which case there is the possibility of applying in the 2nd round, and if you match, not renewing your current residency contract.

 

hmm that is interesting! - so this contacts are only for initially one year long?

[Lactic Folly]

At our school, yes, our contract is renewed yearly, along with College licensing, hospital privileges, CMPA renewal, and PGME registration.

[justletmein]

Yes, you can. The loser round is open to residency divorcees.

 

You are contradicting everyone else...

 

It is important to know whether this is true or not.

It may determine whether I end up ranking a relatively undesirable program (knowing that I can back out if something better comes up in the 2nd round) or taking my chances of going unmatched.

 

 

 

edit -- from carms website -- looks like if you match 1st round you are ineligible

 

The second iteration is available to all applicants who meet one or more of the following descriptions:

 

1. Applicants who submitted a rank order list for the first iteration but went unmatched;

2. Applicants who participated to any degree in the first iteration but discontinued participation*. Please note that applicants who meet this description must e-mail CaRMS at help@carms.ca before the applicant rank order list deadline and request to be moved into the second iteration application pool. Otherwise, the applicant will be required to pay a fee to be moved after the first iteration rank order list deadline;

3. Applicants who are only eligible for the second iteration, based on the provincial criteria found here: http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_prov_e.shtml

[justletmein]

thanks, that's what I thought...

 

In the end, I guess we just have to stick to the simple advice they have been feeding us since the beginning of this process: "Rank only the programs you would be willing to attend"

[justletmein]

Of course, if they don't rank a backup, they might not match, which is the professional equivalent of leprosy.

 

Hehehe.... Well, you have to play with the hand you're dealt.

[rmorelan]

I love that advice. It's such BS.

 

The reality is that a lot of people who are say gunning for rads or plastics or what have you really don't want to attend any programs that are not rads nor plastics. Of course, if they don't rank a backup, they might not match, which is the professional equivalent of leprosy.

 

well what would getting something you cannot stand be then? I still won't put something down I wouldn't be willing to ever do - you would be stuck with it for life (well until you did a lot of work at least). They may not want family but they are still willing to do it if they have to (I hope )

[NLengr]

The reality is that if you didn't match the first time applying to a program, and they have spots left over, that means they didn't rank you at all. I find it highly unlikely they would take you in the second round to fill a spot if they detested you so bad they didn't even put you on the programs rank list.

 

The other reality is that if you are applying for something competitive, then you need to have a back up you can at least tolerate. Or some other plan for your future. Unfortunately not everyone will get their competitive specialty of choice. And things are gonna get tighter at the Royal College adjusts various residency spots to make up for graduate surpluses (see Ortho in Canada etc.)

[rmorelan]

The reality is that if you didn't match the first time applying to a program, and they have spots left over, that means they didn't rank you at all. I find it highly unlikely they would take you in the second round to fill a spot if they detested you so bad they didn't even put you on the programs rank list.

 

Yeah that is probably true. I guess there is still no actual harm in applying to them a second time though(?) - if I understand this algorithm.

[Lactic Folly]

The reality is that if you didn't match the first time applying to a program, and they have spots left over, that means they didn't rank you at all. I find it highly unlikely they would take you in the second round to fill a spot if they detested you so bad they didn't even put you on the programs rank list.

 

Have heard one instance of this actually working out for someone. No idea about the story behind it though.

[Lactic Folly]

Another workaround: increase the number of reentry training positions.

[NLengr]

Another workaround: increase the number of reentry training positions.

 

Problem is we already have many specialty residents graduating without jobs, we don't need more. In fact, there are quite a few areas where we need to reduce the number of positions. You would have to open up those spots in fields with shortages + jobs, for example psych, not in things like plastics or Ortho.

 

General license is the way to go.

[Renin]

Problem is we already have many specialty residents graduating without jobs, we don't need more. In fact, there are quite a few areas where we need to reduce the number of positions. You would have to open up those spots in fields with shortages + jobs, for example psych, not in things like plastics or Ortho.

 

General license is the way to go.

 

Well, I don't think pushing everyone into family medicine or psych is the way to go. I think psych deserves residents who actually want the program, just as there are people who want plastics or ortho. It's not the dumping ground of all the other specialties just because there are jobs when you graduate.

[tooty]

Have heard one instance of this actually working out for someone. No idea about the story behind it though.

 

would've been very interesting to know the details. it's definitely something i would explore if i entered the fail round.

 

as an aside we should all refer to the '2nd iteration' as the 'fail round' from now on.

[rmorelan]

would've been very interesting to know the details. it's definitely something i would explore if i entered the fail round.

 

as an aside we should all refer to the '2nd iteration' as the 'fail round' from now on.

 

Ha - you want to make those that somehow don't match in the first round feel even worse

 

I wonder if it worked out somehow like this - the schools want their residency positions filled - the extra worker is very valuable after all, and someone has to manage call - you cannot just pile it all the remaining residents are there are rules about max call etc. So all the people you wanted initially to come effectively turn you down by going to somewhere else. You are left with a choice of person X or basically no one so you back over the discard pile.

 

I have also seen position that weren't available in round one suddenly become so due to some circumstances (someone left for instance) after the first round closed and the hospital never interviewed people for it in the first round.

 

All of this is pretty rare of course - i still think the best advise is the one given to us from our student affairs office - assume there is no second round and put everything into your first round application The second round is just too messy.

[BlackJack]

Ha - you want to make those that somehow don't match in the first round feel even worse

 

I wonder if it worked out somehow like this - the schools want their residency positions filled - the extra worker is very valuable after all, and someone has to manage call - you cannot just pile it all the remaining residents are there are rules about max call etc. So all the people you wanted initially to come effectively turn you down by going to somewhere else. You are left with a choice of person X or basically no one so you back over the discard pile.

 

I have also seen position that weren't available in round one suddenly become so due to some circumstances (someone left for instance) after the first round closed and the hospital never interviewed people for it in the first round.

 

All of this is pretty rare of course - i still think the best advise is the one given to us from our student affairs office - assume there is no second round and put everything into your first round application The second round is just too messy.

 

Don't depend on the second round. It sucks. We should go general. I would much rather be doing that then going nowhere in my GD residency.

 

Fail round is an appropriate term IMO. Just like those who fail to get into medical school end up doing something else, those that fail to get the residency of their choice end up doing something else.

[NLengr]

Well, I don't think pushing everyone into family medicine or psych is the way to go. I think psych deserves residents who actually want the program, just as there are people who want plastics or ortho. It's not the dumping ground of all the other specialties just because there are jobs when you graduate.

 

At the same time putting people into specialties where there are no jobs is also a terrible thing. Simply put we shouldn't be putting people into residencies if they don't expect there to be enough jobs to let graduates work when they graduate. That's much worse in my opinion. You have just wasted 5+ years and huge amounts of effort, not to mention the financial costs.

 

The fact of the matter is that we need to be upfront to EVERY medical school applicant that you need to be willing to do general practice. They need to know going in that not everyone will turn out to be a plastic surgeon/derm/optho. At the same time we reinstate the general practice system so that all grads can work as a GP. Then we increase the ease with which GP's can re-enter into CaRMS.

 

The Canadian Medical System needs to have a serious talk with itself about the distribution of manpower, residencies and jobs.

[aaronjw]

curious about the job aspect for some areas of medicine. Did some research for a paper I was writing looking at issues of wait times in priority areas (so not across the board at all facets) but it seems as though for we are investing more in putting physicians in the field.

 

But I guess just because that doesn't necessarily mean there are actual jobs (not call, locums) for them to practice in?

 

chart is % change from 2004-2010

[moo]

This is why I much prefer the US system of matching. You have the transitional residency year (and essentially two matches run at once) where, if you don't get your number one choice, or if you go unmatched for the main residency match, you can still at least have a spot to do a one year transitional internship year so you can apply for the more competitive specialty again.

 

Provincial colleges will never go for the one year internship training to be licensed as a GP. BC did away with that a couple years ago, and they were the last place in Canada where you could get a "GP license" (albeit you needed TWO years of training). Now you NEED either CCFP or FRCPC certification to get any sort of a license, which is bunk.

 

I quite enjoyed working alongside psych and rads residents moonlighting in walk in clinics back three years ago. Not anymore. The system is too rigid nowadays and does not allow for any fall back plans. Jobs are scarce in my specialty, but we're lucky in that 2 of the 5 years of training can be in Family Med and I urge all who go into our specialty to do the CCFP training as a backup. Finding a job in a location where I'm willing to work (and that is very limited) is more stressful than studying for the Royal College exams.

 

As for matching into second round: all prior year grads can match into second round. BB is right... if you hate your program, you can apply to second round and match.

 

My advice for all med students is just rank family med as backup. If location is important to you, rank FM (or similarly other easy specialty to get into... but watch out, you may need to demonstrate your interest in that specialty, if not they won't rank you at all) in location of choice as back up (you should be able to get in, unless you have done zero FM electives or are applying to a competitive FM program like UT or UBC) and then transfer after 6 months - 1 year. Much easier to transfer from same institution to same institution so that's why I say location is important.

[rmorelan]

 

My advice for all med students is just rank family med as backup. If location is important to you, rank FM (or similarly other easy specialty to get into... but watch out, you may need to demonstrate your interest in that specialty, if not they won't rank you at all) in location of choice as back up (you should be able to get in, unless you have done zero FM electives or are applying to a competitive FM program like UT or UBC) and then transfer after 6 months - 1 year. Much easier to transfer from same institution to same institution so that's why I say location is important.

 

what could you transfer into? Family is a 2 year program and everything else is more. I thought(?) that you really only had hope of transferring into a program that has the same number of years so the funding is matched.

[Lactic Folly]

Perhaps in instances where the funding is tied to the position, not the trainee (so in essence taking a spot away from someone else).

[rmorelan]

Perhaps in instances where the funding is tied to the position, not the trainee (so in essence taking a spot away from someone else).

 

sure but that sounds like some unlikely "musical chairs" thing would have to happen for you to transfer so some resident would have to drop out. Can't saw relying on something like that sounds good! or am I missing something?