Just a Thought About Prestige

[cclawfjj]

Comparing strictly mean MCAT scores isn't fair. Canadian medical schools have higher standards in terms of GPA. Then again, American Medical Schools take quality of undergrad institutions into account when interpreting GPA (3.4 from Princeton/Stanford/MIT vs. 4.0 from an obscure top 200 University), so this further complicates things

[calmodulin]

Comparing strictly mean MCAT scores isn't fair. Canadian medical schools have higher standards in terms of GPA. Then again, American Medical Schools take quality of undergrad institutions into account when interpreting GPA (3.4 from MIT vs. 4.0 from an obscure top 200 University), so this further complicates things

 

Canadian matriculants have higher GPAs because the way our universities grade, often based on uniform cutoffs (ie 85% is always an A, 90% always an a+, etc), permits a lot more people to have near-perfect GPAs compared to how American universities grade, which are often based on actual bell-curving, which can actually be really brutal and really lessen your chances of getting a 4.0 GPA. Often a high-80es will only net you a B+ if the class has a lot of people getting 90+, because that's how bell-curving grading is. That's why the average matriculant GPA even at schools like Harvard are only something like ~3.80 even though their average MCAT is like a ~36.

[A-Stark]

GPA tells you whether someone can memorize and spit back. MCAT tells you whether someone can actually think outside the box and fast. That is why you have 4.0 students in Canada who have a hard time getting even a 33 on the MCAT.

 

You do realize that not all of us did biology degrees? The type of "thinking" outside the box or otherwise on the MCAT is pretty limited compared to writing final exams in Real Analysis, PDEs, or International Relations Theory.

 

Anyway, I'd have done better than a 32 on the MCAT had it not been 6 years between my first year chemistry and physics classes and writing the damn thing. If only I'd known that taking a year of organic was going to be well beyond what's needed for that test.

 

I'd also mention that, in light of the emphasis on preparing for the USMLE Step 1 during pre-clerkship in the States, rote memorization skills would be pretty important. It's not like learning obscure pathology descriptions helps on think "outside the box".

[niceshrp]

I gotta agree with calmoudulin... I went to one of the Ivys in the US and there are REALLY cut-throat, ambitious, and intelligent pre-meds in the US. The feeling I get is that Canadian medical schools are not really looking for the brightest and most ambitious or creative thinkers but more compassionate, humane, and morally sound students (don't get me wrong though, I am not saying Canadian premeds are not bright, but simply US premeds are more ambitious and are more driven to achieve things during the undergrad years).

 

Hence more weight is given to interviews in Canada in order to see whether the candidates could empathize with other people and show moral reasoning vs US school systems that emphasize GPA, MCAT, and research heavily.

[LittleDaisy]

The Canadian med schools do emphasize a lot on the humane side of a doctor, MMI is a great way to detect a person's intellectual and moral image. For ex, the MMI varies from 50-80% for each Canadian med school..SOmetimes, students with the best grades, best C.V and best accomplishments do not get in due to their poor performance at an interview. It is odd that the prestige of Can. med schools matter not so much to applicants, I know so many people who would turn down the most 'prestigious" med school for a med school with a program they like the most or a med school closer to home:p Probably because there are only 14 med schools across Canada (max of around 2000 students per year) and the content taught and the way of teaching do resemble across the nation.

 

I hope that the U.S system would change in the previous years...Would you really care if you doctor had a 34 MCAT or a 36 MCAT, or if he or she went to Harvard or an obscure 200 top universities?...or would you care more if he or she is compassionate, has a good sense of judgment and who is well-adapted? Anyway, it is just my personal opinion:)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I gotta agree with calmoudulin... I went to one of the Ivys in the US and there are REALLY cut-throat, ambitious, and intelligent pre-meds in the US. The feeling I get is that Canadian medical schools are not really looking for the brightest and most ambitious or creative thinkers but more compassionate, humane, and morally sound students (don't get me wrong though, I am not saying Canadian premeds are not bright, but simply US premeds are more ambitious and are more driven to achieve things during the undergrad years).

 

Hence more weight is given to interviews in Canada in order to see whether the candidates could empathize with other people and show moral reasoning vs US school systems that emphasize GPA, MCAT, and research heavily.

[apache]

wow, that's an awesome story, thanks for sharing!

 

Asian parents. Prestige prestige money money. I can relate to that, big time. Both of my parents were physicians and their biggest wish was that I study medicine. Except it was for all the bad reasons. Prestige, money, security, being 'better than others'. I found it especially repulsive and shallow. The worst thing was that they never mentioned anything about the love for the profession itself, probably because they didn't love it at all to begin with. Probably because they only saw it as a tool to obtain the 'good' lifestyle. In my case, what they did backfired wildly. I rebelled against the whole academic system. I left school at 19 and started drifting through life, finding odd jobs here and there, living by the day, partying, being a 'bum', being the ultimate black sheep of the family, the 'shame' of the family. Many years later, my mother passed away, God bless her. The last time I saw her, I could see how disappointed she was in me. Following her death, I fell into depression. In order to to understand what I was going through, I began to look into psychology books. It sparked in me the love for sciences and research, saving me from depression in the process. On a whim, I decided to enroll into university, in the psychology program, at age 32, simply because I wanted to know more about what I was reading. Finally, I was going to school for the right reasons. It reflected on my grades, which were stellar. During those years, my interest for the medical profession grew. I finished my psyc program, applied to med, and got in, at the ripe age of 36.

 

Sorry to tell you the story of my life, and for slightly hijacking the thread. But I just think it's a good example of the damage that parents can do when they communicate shallow values to their children. In my case, the damage came in the form of wasting a huge chunk of my life rebelling against the system. I realize that I turned it around in the end, but those years I will never get back. I don't want to blame my parents. Maybe it is I who reacted in the wrong way. Still, their approach contributed to it.

 

Parents, especially asian parents, don't do that to your children.

[calmodulin]

I hope that the U.S system would change in the previous years...Would you really care if you doctor had a 34 MCAT or a 36 MCAT, or if he or she went to Harvard or an obscure 200 top universities?...or would you care more if he or she is compassionate, has a good sense of judgment and who is well-adapted? Anyway, it is just my personal opinion:)

 

Of course not. The Canadian medical education system is exceptionally strong and (for med school) is governed by the same set of LCME regulations that govern US MD schools, so the doctors coming out of either country's system are of the same calibre.

 

The point was that it is simply very naive to say that the standard Canadian med applicant will 'get into a top-tier American school', because people here haven't really seen just how competitive (stats+CV wise) premeds can become. Of course coming out, they will end up having matching competencies as clinicians because of the rigor of either country's med schools.

[apache]

yeah, the best doc i ever had trained in the ireland

 

The way I see it, there is such a doctor shortage in most locations, at least in the field I am interested in, that people will probably just be glad to have a doctor. If some patients do care, they are welcome to go elsewhere - I doubt I will have trouble finding enough patients to keep myself afloat.

 

Personally I know where my doctors went to medical school but I don't really care about it. I know they are good docs because of how they have treated me and that's what matters.

[medaholic]

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise: prestige matters.

 

There's a reason why going to Harvard is more impressive than going to USask. The educational quality probably isn't very different, but the prestige is.

 

I would disagree with brooksbane. Forget chasing the prestige and what other people think. Do things for yourself. Do the right things and not just the showy things.

 

After working with so many medical students, residents and staff physicians from different backgrounds and institutions, I couldn't care less where they did their schooling. What's much more important is how good of a doctor they are, are they kind and compassionate to their patients, are they excited to teach, are they a good role model.

 

The the OP, the problem might also be that your parents live in the GTA. Move around a bit, see more of Canada. See how people practice medicine in different cities. I think you would be amazed at the quality of physicians in many places. It's good for you in the long run.

[SharkLvr]

The Canadian med schools do emphasize a lot on the humane side of a doctor, MMI is a great way to detect a person's intellectual and moral image. For ex, the MMI varies from 50-80% for each Canadian med school..SOmetimes, students with the best grades, best C.V and best accomplishments do not get in due to their poor performance at an interview. It is odd that the prestige of Can. med schools matter not so much to applicants, I know so many people who would turn down the most 'prestigious" med school for a med school with a program they like the most or a med school closer to home:p Probably because there are only 14 med schools across Canada (max of around 2000 students per year) and the content taught and the way of teaching do resemble across the nation.

 

I hope that the U.S system would change in the previous years...Would you really care if you doctor had a 34 MCAT or a 36 MCAT, or if he or she went to Harvard or an obscure 200 top universities?...or would you care more if he or she is compassionate, has a good sense of judgment and who is well-adapted? Anyway, it is just my personal opinion:)

 

In my view, that's a difficult comparison to make between a Canadian medical medical school and a top-tier American one. Canadian schools all try to produce a wide mix of doctors to meet the country's physician needs. Each school here aims to send 50%+ of their grads to primary care. The mission of one of these top tier American schools is quite different. Most of them aren't out to produce community physicians to serve your local district - these schools specifically aim to produce doctors that will go on to become research heavyweights, policy leaders, international figures (and ultimately bring in more funding and esteem to the institution, which these schools need since they're not run by the government). All types of doctors are no doubt important, but in light of this it's quite understandable why one type of school may put more emphasis on soft skills while others may be more GPA/MCAT/research/accomplishment focused. Schools tailor their admissions criteria to fit the breed of doctors they hope to produce.

[niceshrp]

In my view, that's a difficult comparison to make between a Canadian medical medical school and a top-tier American one. Canadian schools all try to produce a wide mix of doctors to meet the country's physician needs. Each school here aims to send 50%+ of their grads to primary care. The mission of one of these top tier American schools is quite different. Most of them aren't out to produce community physicians to serve your local district - these schools specifically aim to produce doctors that will go on to become research heavyweights, policy leaders, international figures (and ultimately bring in more funding and esteem to the institution, which these schools need since they're not run by the government). All types of doctors are no doubt important, but in light of this it's quite understandable why one type of school may put more emphasis on soft skills while others may be more GPA/MCAT/research/accomplishment focused. Schools tailor their admissions criteria to fit the breed of doctors they hope to produce.

 

Precisely.

[AtomSmasherXVIII]

Yes, all schools turn out "competent" physicians in Canada. But to say that because of this, all Canadian schools are exactly equal in terms of prestige, is a SUPER FAIL. All accredited US medical schools turn out "competent" physicians, yet a clearly defined tier system still exists there.

 

Nobody is saying that schools with less prestige create inferior physicians. But schools with more prestige open up more future career opportunities. Look at the CARMS match rates. Students from ****ty schools like U of M, U of S, and MUN mostly match into FM. Students from good schools like U of T, UBC, and McGill have higher match rates into ROAD/PRS/ENT/Uro.

 

Prestige matters. If you think otherwise, you are delusional, or one of those annoying "community" types.

[GaganS]

Go where you want to, not where your parents want you to go.

[thebouque]

ç

 

Nobody is saying that schools with less prestige create inferior physicians. But schools with more prestige open up more future career opportunities. Look at the CARMS match rates. Students from ****ty schools like U of M, U of S, and MUN mostly match into FM. Students from good schools like U of T, UBC, and McGill have higher match rates into ROAD/PRS/ENT/Uro.

.

 

Really ? I'm not sure you're chances of matching into competitive specialties is increased if you go to McGill, UofT or UBC.

[KennethToronto]

Really ? I'm not sure you're chances of matching into competitive specialties is increased if you go to McGill, UofT or UBC.

 

Absolutely right. But what people don't appreciate is your location for undergrad medicine can have an impact on where and what you do residency. This has nothing to do with prestige, but other factors including the 'shadow curriculum', accessibility, classmates etc.

 

In short, most people are happy with any acceptance. For those fortunate enough to have multiple offers, go where you'll be happiest (city, proximity to family etc).

[jerkstore]

Med schools know all this stuff is just undergrad. Nobody cares about undergrad prestige, there is no undergrad prestige it's all the same, and yes as you said putting people at a disadvantage because of location would be BS. All they care about is that you are a hard, balanced worker who has some introductory (in most cases) science knowledge, which will be tested on the MCAT. All that stuff about prestige starts at the graduate level, and medical schools know this.

[AtomSmasherXVIII]

Really ? I'm not sure you're chances of matching into competitive specialties is increased if you go to McGill, UofT or UBC.

 

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2012R1_MatchResults/17_Match%20Results%20of%20Canadian%20Graduates%20by%20Medical%20School%20and%20Discipline_en.pdf

 

% of class matching into ROAD:

 

Crap schools:

 

MUN: 11.2

U of M: 11

U of S: 15.4

NSOM: 0

 

Good schools:

 

U of T: 9.5

McGill: 11.6

UBC: 9.9

 

I am reconsidering my original position.

[Lactic Folly]

Common mistake to confuse the quality of the school with the popularity of the location for those who are not from the region.

[lloyder34]

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2012R1_MatchResults/17_Match%20Results%20of%20Canadian%20Graduates%20by%20Medical%20School%20and%20Discipline_en.pdf

 

% of class matching into ROAD:

 

Crap schools:

 

MUN: 11.2

U of M: 11

U of S: 15.4

NSOM: 0

 

Good schools:

 

U of T: 9.5

McGill: 11.6

UBC: 9.9

 

I am reconsidering my original position.

 

Not sure how the class sizes match up, but I'm guessing the "good schools" (at least UT and UBC) have much larger class sizes than MUN, UofS etc, so maybe absolute numbers might help your position. I think its a moot point though, match rates don't drastically differ across the board.

[rogerroger]

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2012R1_MatchResults/17_Match%20Results%20of%20Canadian%20Graduates%20by%20Medical%20School%20and%20Discipline_en.pdf

 

% of class matching into ROAD:

 

Crap schools:

 

MUN: 11.2

U of M: 11

U of S: 15.4

NSOM: 0

 

Good schools:

 

U of T: 9.5

McGill: 11.6

UBC: 9.9

 

I am reconsidering my original position.

 

Caution, these are possibly misleading stats which can be skewed by class size. What would be interesting would be the number of applicants at a given school for ROAD vs successfully matched to ROAD for the same given school... I am pretty sure the raw numbers are out there on CaRMS. Maybe someone with more free time could calculate it...

[NLengr]

Also ROAD isn't a grouping of all the most competative specialties, Optho and Derm are extremely competative but rads and anesthesia are only middle of the pack competative for the competative specialties.

 

Plus people are examining one year of data with no statistical analytic methods. The numbers thrown around here are meaningless.

 

Also Atomsmasher is basically a troll anyway.

[Lactic Folly]

I would still urge students to go to Toronto or UBC over others. The opportunities there are greater than at, say, NOSM.

 

Just to play devil's advocate - it may be easier to stand out as a big fish in a small pond than vice versa. It's more difficult to compare Dean's letters between schools, so one's accomplishments may appear more impressive on their own than when compared with those of similarly high-achieving classmates from the same school.

 

Having ample opportunity for electives and summer research will offset any disadvantage in terms of local connections.

[Lactic Folly]

More devil's advocate:

 

You make a good point, but I still think if you go to a large school its easier to set up electives at their departments than if you're from the other side of the country. We've all experienced the UBC electives application process.

So if you are from UofT, it's easier to set up an elective at UofT? I'll buy this, but doubtful that it confers any advantage to setting up an elective at UBC, for example, compared to students from schools other than UofT.

 

Not to mention larger schools have more departments. If you want derm, I hope you didn't go to U of M or MUN. Not to say its impossible, but its close.

Agree with this point. However, not impossible if you have enough elective time to become known and better liked than the home crowd.

 

Big schools also tend to have the big names in each field, so letters from them will be "worth more" than letters from equally competent yet less famous docs from smaller schools, or from community hospitals.

The academic milieu in Canada is close-knit. All the program directors in my specialty meet and collaborate. Likewise, all the chairs in my specialty form their own committee. Chances are, the academics (even from smaller schools) will be known by someone on the interviewing committee... your point is more true for community docs.

 

I'll also add that some people who write many letters, although they are in prominent positions, are busy and may write in a form-like fashion. Relative obscurity of letter writers may be overcome by providing many glowing, specific letters from unrelated referees from different areas... the consistency of the message becomes convincing.

 

It's all P/F anyway, and as far as I know Dean's letters are uniformly gushing with non-criticism, so the only thing programs have to go on come app time is your presence and letters of reference from people in that field.

Some Dean's letters are fairly useless, but there are schools that include a wealth of narrative comments from every rotation, and more tellingly, ratings of relative below/average/above averageness for clerkships, which can easily be compared among students from the same school to obtain a sense of class standing.

 

Big schools just have more opportunities by virtue of the fact that they are big.

Big schools also have more students competing for the same opportunities. See threads about applying to summer enrichment programs as a UofT medical student - I didn't realize the process was that formalized (it was the same for medical students as for undergrads at my alma mater), although I suppose it makes sense given the size of the classes.

[NLengr]

Really, all that matters come application time is your performance at that school on elective. It trumps everything.

[Lactic Folly]

Agreed on most points:

 

What I was saying here is that if you went to UBC you could get an elective. If you did not go to UBC, getting an elective was a more unlikely task than winning the Lotto 6/49. Hot schools in popular locations have a lot of people gunning for elective time. If you go to one of these schools, you either get your foot in the door for electives before everyone else, or you do the rotation in your clinical years which would obviate the need for a separate elective.

 

I do not think that being able to get a clerkship at one's own school contributes a great deal to the home school advantage. It's more about being able to establish those connections from day one and maintain them throughout the school year - arranging observerships, doing summer electives, working on research, and dropping by to say hello every so often. Those who become part of the department in this way during medical school really have no need for an elective in clerkship. As an aside, I'm not sure that every UBC program cares whether someone has done an elective with them anyway.

 

Some programs within the same field in Canada do not respect each other very much, and this goes for the docs that work within those programs. Such close-knit groups aren't all kumbaya - there are hierarchies. UofT and UBC are often on top.

 

By the same token, your bigwig supporter may not be popular at every school.

 

The fact that there is so much variation in Dean's letter information makes the information somewhat moot.

 

Well, I think if there are multiple students from the same school, there is always the possibility that their Dean's letters will be compared side to side.