what's a "Good" evaluation

[Knovecc]

Can anyone tell what is an average "good" evaluation like? I mean not excellent/stellar ones, but not mediocre ones either ---- let's say at the 50th percentile of clerks/residents

 

here's from what I saw:

 

In the grills:

NOTHING under expectation, 50-70% items at expectation (or average), 30-50% above expectation (or above average)

 

In the writing comments:

some nice words for the "strength" comment

the "to be improved" comment is absolutely left blank

 

So yeah, from what I saw, if you have ANYTHING mentioned "to be improved", your eval is essentially screwed ---- I don't mean failing, but for sure you're behind like 80-90% of your peers, and will likely be a red flag down the road in carms

 

and if every single item is only "at expectation" (let alone anything below), it can be considered a pretty bad one too

[Mandibular]

Can anyone tell what is an average "good" evaluation like? I mean not excellent/stellar ones, but not mediocre ones either ---- let's say at the 50th percentile of clerks/residents

 

here's from what I saw:

 

In the grills:

NOTHING under expectation, 50-70% items at expectation (or average), 30-50% above expectation (or above average)

 

In the writing comments:

some nice words for the "strength" comment

the "to be improved" comment is absolutely left blank

 

So yeah, from what I saw, if you have ANYTHING mentioned "to be improved", your eval is essentially screwed ---- I don't mean failing, but for sure you're behind like 80-90% of your peers, and will likely be a red flag down the road in carms

 

and if every single item is only "at expectation" (let alone anything below), it can be considered a pretty bad one too

 

 

What about evals where you have "at expectation" in all the grills ans in the final global grill, it says "passes expectation"?

 

Also, where did u get this info from?

[justletmein]

everything you just wrote is BS.

Im not even sure why you started this thread.

 

Also, "grills" is not the translation for "grille" although it gave me an early morning laugh. so thank you.

[Partyboy]

Can anyone tell what is an average "good" evaluation like? I mean not excellent/stellar ones, but not mediocre ones either ---- let's say at the 50th percentile of clerks/residents

 

here's from what I saw:

 

In the grills:

NOTHING under expectation, 50-70% items at expectation (or average), 30-50% above expectation (or above average)

 

In the writing comments:

some nice words for the "strength" comment

the "to be improved" comment is absolutely left blank

 

So yeah, from what I saw, if you have ANYTHING mentioned "to be improved", your eval is essentially screwed ---- I don't mean failing, but for sure you're behind like 80-90% of your peers, and will likely be a red flag down the road in carms

 

and if every single item is only "at expectation" (let alone anything below), it can be considered a pretty bad one too

 

The grills !!! lol

 

I'm sorry but your post is not accurate. It's ridiculous lol. Did you just start clerkship ? Relax. Don't freak out. You're probably going to get grilled in some evals anyway.

[Knovecc]

Mandibular:

I'm from a francophone university too, we don't have a final single ticking box that evals you either "above" or "at" or "below" expectation

 

justletmein:

I hope what I wrote is bs, but this is what I see around me. By accident, I peeked the eval sheets of some other ppl. I swear that I essentially saw NOTHING in the "to be improved" writing comment, and the "least generous" I ever saw is like only (!) 30% boxes are checked as "above expectation"

 

you can judge me however you want, but instead of saying it's bs, or asserting i'm a troll, please just give me some examples of a "normal", "good" eval from an average clerk/resident.

 

Thank you

 

partyboy:

well no I'm not a new clerk, but i just put everything i saw around me here. If you'd like, you can give me an example of how an average good clerk's eval is like.

[Lactic Folly]

Preceptors vary in how generous they are with the tick boxes.. comments are more useful, as is the overall picture from all your evaluations.

[rmorelan]

Preceptors vary in how generous they are with the tick boxes.. comments are more useful, as is the overall picture from all your evaluations.

 

Not sure if it is the same at all schools but at Western in the end all that matters is the comments. Those are what shows up on your Dean's letter here. The rest never appears anywhere.

[Knovecc]

so how bad is it to have ANYTHING put down on the "to be improved" writing comment?

[rmorelan]

so how bad is it to have ANYTHING put down on the "to be improved" writing comment?

 

this is where the entire subjective nature of CARMS kicks in - short answer is "who knows?"

 

Depends on what you need to improve on (or what they think you need to improve on), depends on what program you are applying to, depends on the people reviewing your application.....

 

everyone always looks for sure answers in the game (same with applying to med school in the first place). Natural I think plus reinforced by the types of people that generally apply to medical school in the first place (science types like clear answers). Trouble is CARMS is a job interview process - it has subjective written all over it.

[thebouque]

Not sure if it is the same at all schools but at Western in the end all that matters is the comments. Those are what shows up on your Dean's letter here. The rest never appears anywhere.

 

Not the same at all at other schools. The rest of the eval (high pass, pass, borderline etc) definitely shows up.

[rmorelan]

Not the same at all at other schools. The rest of the eval (high pass, pass, borderline etc) definitely shows up.

 

interesting The entire point of the pass/fail system was to get rid of that sort of thing. I wonder what the distribution is overall across the country on this?

[Lactic Folly]

I heard that Western students get to choose which comments go on the Dean's letter, and as such end up with only a few lines at the bottom of the document (correct me if I'm wrong). As such, this renders the Dean's letter at Western of less utility compared to many other schools, some of which include full detailed comments from every rotation, and/or bar graphs of clerkship numerical evaluations in comparison to other students.

[rmorelan]

I heard that Western students get to choose which comments go on the Dean's letter, and as such end up with only a few lines at the bottom of the document (correct me if I'm wrong). As such, this renders the Dean's letter at Western of less utility compared to many other schools, some of which include full detailed comments from every rotation, and/or bar graphs of clerkship numerical evaluations in comparison to other students.

 

yeah that is true - we only have 3 of our 6 comments put on our dean's letters. We get to choose which three - we have 6 core blocks in clerkship (family, psych, sugery, peds, ob/gen, and internal)

 

Which schools have those sorts of numerical comparisons etc? Certainly makes the playing field uneven if schools are doing different things

[psychoswim]

interesting The entire point of the pass/fail system was to get rid of that sort of thing. I wonder what the distribution is overall across the country on this?

 

Until this year, clerkship had letter grades at UdeM! Now it's pass/fail but I think there's high pass and variations still.

[Lactic Folly]

Which schools have those sorts of numerical comparisons etc? Certainly makes the playing field uneven if schools are doing different things

 

Perhaps numerical comparisons was an inaccurate thing to say - but some schools (I believe UBC and Toronto) do give an idea of whether a student was at expectations or above expectations for each clerkship rotation, so it's possible to compare two students from the same school and see that one scored consistently above average and the other, mostly average.. I suppose the relative advantage of having such a Dean's letter depends on which student you are!

[rmorelan]

Perhaps numerical comparisons was an inaccurate thing to say - but some schools (I believe UBC and Toronto) do give an idea of whether a student was at expectations or above expectations for each clerkship rotation, so it's possible to compare two students from the same school and see that one scored consistently above average and the other, mostly average.. I suppose the relative advantage of having such a Dean's letter depends on which student you are!

 

Sure but I am surprised it isn't more standardized I guess. In theory now weaker students at Western will have an advantage over weaker students at say Toronto, and the reverse with better students - it is hard not act on information you are presented with.

[Mandibular]

Mandibular:

I'm from a francophone university too, we don't have a final single ticking box that evals you either "above" or "at" or "below" expectation

 

justletmein:

I hope what I wrote is bs, but this is what I see around me. By accident, I peeked the eval sheets of some other ppl. I swear that I essentially saw NOTHING in the "to be improved" writing comment, and the "least generous" I ever saw is like only (!) 30% boxes are checked as "above expectation"

 

you can judge me however you want, but instead of saying it's bs, or asserting i'm a troll, please just give me some examples of a "normal", "good" eval from an average clerk/resident.

 

Thank you

 

partyboy:

well no I'm not a new clerk, but i just put everything i saw around me here. If you'd like, you can give me an example of how an average good clerk's eval is like.

 

Are you sure about this? There's a final box with "limite / comforme/ superieur / depasse / exceptionel" on top of your final comments. this is what appears on the deans letter for each of your rotations

[Knovecc]

Are you sure about this? There's a final box with "limite / comforme/ superieur / depasse / exceptionel" on top of your final comments. this is what appears on the deans letter for each of your rotations

 

I'm from UdeM, we didn't have that "grand final" eval - but as psychoswim indicated, things might have changed now

 

for my cohort, it's inferieur/conforme/superieur for each item

 

we don't have "limite" nor "exceptionnel" - though I know Laval may have them

[Knovecc]

Perhaps numerical comparisons was an inaccurate thing to say - but some schools (I believe UBC and Toronto) do give an idea of whether a student was at expectations or above expectations for each clerkship rotation

 

anyone knows what the % of students gets ticked "overall above average" for any given rotation?

 

I feel like lots of trainees do (like 50%) - although it's sometimes indicated "above average (top 10%)" - which makes a mere "at expectation" look so bad

[Lactic Folly]

I'm sure that would be quite dependent on your preceptor/rotation.

[Lactic Folly]

Evaluations, while subjective, still need to be based on some objective facts to be credible. I think it's more important to not be disliked on a personal level, as my gut feeling is that it's less likely for someone to put their reputation on the line by coming up with glowing anecdotes for a mediocre student, in comparison to bestowing unenthusiastic and lacklustre comments on someone who rubbed them the wrong way. If you get along decently with your preceptor and perform decently, you should be fine.

[rogerroger]

I hear you and sympathize...

 

The lack of meaningful evaluations within medical education is one of the greatest problems in the field in my opinion.

 

With the amount of time and resources spent on educating trainees it is shocking at how little attention is paid to the evaluating process... The popular evaluation methods used are archaic and have limited real evidence behind them...

 

Just glance at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21607744

 

Unfortunately for us current trainees there is a lot of work that needs to be done in this area... Other professions are light years ahead of medicine in this regards. With this said, I encourage you and other like minded people to cease the bull by the horns and talk about this problem and advocate for yourself to the powers that be. I sincerely believe that much of the change which has to inevitably occur will be initially driven by trainees themselves. From the limited changes I have seen in student evaluation throughout med school this has always been the case.

 

This is also an area ripe for research.

[thebouque]

I hear you and sympathize...

 

The lack of meaningful evaluations within medical education is one of the greatest problems in the field in my opinion.

 

With the amount of time and resources spent on educating trainees it is shocking at how little attention is paid to the evaluating process... The popular evaluation methods used are archaic and have limited real evidence behind them...

 

Just glance at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21607744

 

Unfortunately for us current trainees there is a lot of work that needs to be done in this area... Other professions are light years ahead of medicine in this regards. With this said, I encourage you and other like minded people to size the bull by the horns and talk about this problem and advocate for yourself to the powers that be. I sincerely believe that much of the change which has to inevitably occur will be initially driven by trainees themselves. From the limited changes I have seen in student evaluation throughout med school this has always been the case.

 

This is also an area ripe for research.

 

 

I agree, as far as undergraduate medical education is concerned. However, the evaluation process is a lot more strict and organized for specialties (specific requirements, royal college examinations).

[Jochi1543]

How subjective are evals? Well, let's see. One preceptor gave me 5s on almost everything; then s/he saw the comment saying "If you give the student a rating of 5, please use the space below to explain each rating of 5 given to the student." The preceptor then sighed and changed all of these 5s to 4s because s/he didn't feel like wasting time on writing a novel.

[Lactic Folly]

If it's any consolation, the impression obtained from straight 5s without comments versus straight 4s without comments probably doesn't differ that much..