CCFP-EM competitiveness

[geetar2112]

I've seen the carms stats for the +1 emerg 2012 match, and I'm hoping to get an idea of what they actually mean from someone in the field.

 

For example, 60% of applicants from FM at UWO went unmatched to an EM +1; Queen's and Toronto also had 40% unmatched. Those numbers seem scary. The match rate for most schools seems pretty low.

 

But how hard is it actually to get a +1 year if you are willing to put in the work to become competitive and apply broadly? Do a lot of those applicants who went unmatched not apply broadly enough? i.e. do they take the approach that they'll just apply to the +1 at their home school, and they're ok with the fact they may not get a spot?

 

I guess I'm wondering...if you go the FM route with the ultimate goal of being an emerg doc, how realistic a chance do you actually have to get the +1 (not considering the re-entry option).

 

Thanks

[geetar2112]

Thanks for the reply.

 

I know the stats say it might be harder to get into the +1EM than the FRCPC, but I'm just wondering about how meaningful those stats are.

 

How many of those unmatched +1EM applicants were just half-heartedly throwing in apps to a couple of nearby schools with the approach that there's nothing to lose? This would inflate the perceived difficulty of getting a spot. Versus how many of these applicants are actually serious and competitive with a demonstrated interest in emerg?

 

I know there's no way to get this kind of data, but just a general idea from someone who's recently gone through the process would be helpful.

 

Also, is there any way to go back and do the +1 residency year after practicing FM for a few years, without having to go through a ROS agreement?

[Real Beef]

I am only a MS1 but have anecdotally heard that there is a significant percentage of +1 EM applicants who 'throw' their applications in and who have not prepped an EM-centric application and thus skew the stats. Though we may never know what the odds of a strong and well thought out EM application rest assured it is better than the stats suggest.

 

One question I do have which may be answerable is which +1 EM positions have ROS contracts. I didnt think many had such a thing attached to it but I keep hearing about this ...?

 

I know the Dalhousie U has an R1 direct entry into a 3 year family medicine + EM (2+1) which is in rural NB and has a return of service attached. But I wasnt aware of any post-FM +1s that had a ROS contract.

 

Beef

[Dany]

Just don't go to Quebec with CCFPEM. You get paid less for doing the same amount of work as FRCP.

 

I guess we can do our CCFPEM in QC while practising elsewhere... like living in Gatineau and working in an ER in Ottawa

[geetar2112]

I am only a MS1 but have anecdotally heard that there is a significant percentage of +1 EM applicants who 'throw' their applications in and who have not prepped an EM-centric application and thus skew the stats. Though we may never know what the odds of a strong and well thought out EM application rest assured it is better than the stats suggest.

 

One question I do have which may be answerable is which +1 EM positions have ROS contracts. I didnt think many had such a thing attached to it but I keep hearing about this ...?

 

I know the Dalhousie U has an R1 direct entry into a 3 year family medicine + EM (2+1) which is in rural NB and has a return of service attached. But I wasnt aware of any post-FM +1s that had a ROS contract.

 

Beef

 

That is reassuring to hear. The raw stats indeed are pretty daunting.

 

The ROS I'm referring to applies to fam docs who've been practising for a bit and want to go back for the +1. As far as I'm aware, this ROS is the only way to go back for a +1 EM once you're out of the residency system (in Ontario). But I'm hoping there are other options I haven't heard of.

[Real Beef]

That is reassuring to hear. The raw stats indeed are pretty daunting.

 

The ROS I'm referring to applies to fam docs who've been practising for a bit and want to go back for the +1. As far as I'm aware, this ROS is the only way to go back for a +1 EM once you're out of the residency system (in Ontario). But I'm hoping there are other options I haven't heard of.

 

The ROS after practicing as an FM is an additional factor I didnt know about ... so thanks.

 

We have two EM residency program information sessions coming up .. one for CCFP-EM and one for the Royal College EM ... Feb 4 & Feb 11/13. I will pose that question to the presenter of the CCFP-EM session, if they have anything to do with the residency selection/ application review process. Otherwise I am our school's EM student club prez on the East campus so I can send a quick question to the CCFP-EM program director to see if he can shed any light on this question. I dont mind bugging him ... it'll just reinforce with him I am interested in the program (which I am) or that I am annoying and overly eager (which I am)

 

 

Beef

[geetar2112]

The ROS after practicing as an FM is an additional factor I didnt know about ... so thanks.

 

We have two EM residency program information sessions coming up .. one for CCFP-EM and one for the Royal College EM ... Feb 4 & Feb 11/13. I will pose that question to the presenter of the CCFP-EM session, if they have anything to do with the residency selection/ application review process. Otherwise I am our school's EM student club prez on the East campus so I can send a quick question to the CCFP-EM program director to see if he can shed any light on this question. I dont mind bugging him ... it'll just reinforce with him I am interested in the program (which I am) or that I am annoying and overly eager (which I am)

 

 

Beef

 

Thanks Beef, any info is always appreciated.

[irondoc]

Hello,

 

I have just gone through this process this year. It seemed like ALOT of people were applying this year. There were definitely people out there that only applied to one or two schools, but there were quite a few that applied to many schools in and out of province. Several of my friends from med school applied, as did many people from my residency program (U of T)...4/15 residents at my hospital alone!

 

I spoke with the old program director at U of T (Dr Letovsky) and he said that people who applied broadly had a >85% chance of getting in somewhere....didn't specify what broadly meant though. I know for sure of one person who didn't get in but she only applied to one school. Most people that I know who applied got in somewhere, albeit maybe not their first choice.

 

This year there were around 60-120 applicants per school (anecdotally). You can take a bit of comfort in knowing that there is alot of overlap as many people do apply broadly.

 

If you want to strengthen your application, make sure you show interest and get strong reference letters. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Working with program directors is great but not necessary. Try and do electives at the schools you plan on ranking highly to increase your chances of getting an interview.

[Dany]

Hello,

 

I have just gone through this process this year. It seemed like ALOT of people were applying this year. There were definitely people out there that only applied to one or two schools, but there were quite a few that applied to many schools in and out of province. Several of my friends from med school applied, as did many people from my residency program (U of T)...4/15 residents at my hospital alone!

 

I spoke with the old program director at U of T (Dr Letovsky) and he said that people who applied broadly had a >85% chance of getting in somewhere....didn't specify what broadly meant though. I know for sure of one person who didn't get in but she only applied to one school. Most people that I know who applied got in somewhere, albeit maybe not their first choice.

 

This year there were around 60-120 applicants per school (anecdotally). You can take a bit of comfort in knowing that there is alot of overlap as many people do apply broadly.

 

If you want to strengthen your application, make sure you show interest and get strong reference letters. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Working with program directors is great but not necessary. Try and do electives at the schools you plan on ranking highly to increase your chances of getting an interview.

 

Thanks Irondoc

very useful info indeed

[Dany]

Just a little heads up about FM/EM application in 2013 match for the class 2014-2015:

seems that the application number is increasing exponentially, while the total number of spots is the same (if not cut in one or two schools)

For example, I was told that Memorial had 56 applicants last year, vs ~75 this year competing for the same 4 spots. So they interviewed 35-40 people. I was told by the assistant director (who was a graduate from the program himself) that, back in 6 years, there were only 4 applicants for 2 spots.

 

Ah the good old days... why's everything getting harder and tougher:(

[justletmein]

I have to tell you that while there are many serious applicants, the numbers are boosted by tons of people applying to 1 or 2 schools "just to see what happens"... They are sometimes unsure of what they really want and aren't ready to "rule out" a 3rd year in EM.

 

So yes, the FM/EM match is competitive, but I think the numbers are misleading.

[BoyInTheBubble]

I have to tell you that while there are many serious applicants, the numbers are boosted by tons of people applying to 1 or 2 schools "just to see what happens"... They are sometimes unsure of what they really want and aren't ready to "rule out" a 3rd year in EM.

 

So yes, the FM/EM match is competitive, but I think the numbers are misleading.

 

If you are interested in the extra EM training, consider it difficult...because it is competitive. Assume that all of the applicants are very skilled.

 

Even if they are only "a little bit" interested, they might still have a better application than you. Furthermore, it's easy to justify (to programs) that you are only interested in X, Y or Z location since many residents have a family established by this point. So only applying to a cluster of regional programs, says they don't want to move around the country - it doesn't say anything about the quality of the applicant.

 

You may think the numbers are misleading, but that doesn't make it "easier" and it would be silly to underestimate your peers.

 

If you think there is something you can do to make your application better, and are debating whether or not to do it, ask yourself if you'll be ok with not getting the position and if you'll regret not doing it.

[steve1234]

Question: I saw somewhere that it says to do your electives in EM if you want to be a competitive applicant for the CCFP+EM program. JUst to make sure, is that referring to fourth year electives in your undergrad med studies or electives in the FM residency (if that exists). Lol im a CC3 so trying to decide what electives to do.

Thanks!

[rmorelan]

If you are interested in the extra EM training, consider it difficult...because it is competitive. Assume that all of the applicants are very skilled.

 

Even if they are only "a little bit" interested, they might still have a better application than you. Furthermore, it's easy to justify (to programs) that you are only interested in X, Y or Z location since many residents have a family established by this point. So only applying to a cluster of regional programs, says they don't want to move around the country - it doesn't say anything about the quality of the applicant.

 

particularly because by this point a large number of people have settled to some degree - there is likely to be increasing geographic restraints over time. They are also applying to likely the very schools they would be known the best and thus likely the most competitive (one would hope )

[Dany]

Question: I saw somewhere that it says to do your electives in EM if you want to be a competitive applicant for the CCFP+EM program. JUst to make sure, is that referring to fourth year electives in your undergrad med studies or electives in the FM residency (if that exists). Lol im a CC3 so trying to decide what electives to do.

Thanks!

 

It's really the EM rotations (mandatory or elective) during FM residency that really count. And yes, you definitely get elective time during FM residency.

And of course, you still have to do well in every single other rotation as your FM program director will have to write you a letter and an assessment form, and he/she has access to ALL your residency rotation evals.

 

All the English FM/EM programs don't care about your medschool performance and don't ask any report from it.

Two of the French FM/EM programs (UdeM, Laval) ask you to send all your med school rotation evals

 

hope it helps

[LeBronto2019]

UAlberta: "Candidates should have a proven interest in Emergency Medicine -- please note that a well-rounded candidate is usually preferable to one who has done only Emergency Medicine electives."

 

So clearly it shouldn't just be only EM for everything you do. Balance is best, but prove yourself and interest in EM. I know one person who did rotations in rural med, global health, etc., and showed that his interest in EM stemmed from helping less privileged (which EM would face a lot of) as well as that he wanted a broad-based family practice in rural Alberta so FM/EM would be beneficial in a small community.