A follow-up to the dating thread, with a different twist

[mcater2006]

Dear premed101'ers:

 

In the process of looking for upcoming LMCC II study groups, I got side-tracked into catslover's med and dating thread. I was originally gonna post this as a reply to that thread, but then my personal situation is so different and the questions I am going to ask so unrelated to the original thread that I think a wholly new thread would be more appropriate.

 

I guess I am one of those very very very lucky few people in the medical profession who has come to the realization that I am exactly where I want to be in my life, and that I want nothing more in my life and is 200% happy with everything that I already have, and can see a clear way towards my eventual destination which is the RIP stone.

 

To show you that I'm not just BS'ing, let me show you my life right now: I am a happy first year resident in psychiatry at a great Canadian university. My RESIDENCY (a time of great misery to many in our profession) is actually chill right now, bordering on the lifestyle of an attending (with a 1:12-14 call ratio). I have near zero debt thanks to my parents and my coop undergrad program. I don't worry about job prospects because I don't care about the location or remuneration of my work. And ours is one of those few specialties with more jobs than residents.

 

The only thing that bothers me right now, as you might have guessed from my saying this post is related to catslover's med and dating thread, is the relationships. When I said that I am "one of those very very very ... RIP stone", I meant that my cerebral cortex, my rational and higher brain has already worked out fully the logic of why it makes sense for me to remain single for the rest of my life and, more importantly, to never father any children. But two problems continue creeping up in an otherwise very harmonious life and cause me trouble:

 

1. My reptilian brain (hypothalamus, pons, etc), "lower" brain, further backward in the evolutionary line, still gets turned on by the hot (as per my aesthetics) girls that I come across in my life. This is normally not a problem for me as 99.99% of those girls ignore me, so I ignore them. But in 0.01% of the circumstances the said hot girl will introduce herself, without my consent, to me, and then will go on to say some very intimate things to me and sending me false messages. And then my reptilian system gets revved up and I get very worked up over the said hot girl. She will turn out to be an attention whore in the end, there will be a nasty fallout and I will be left worrying about the possibility of having a law-suit brought against me. I even had to remove my facebook account entirely after a recent encounter of the kind during one of my off-service rotations, it was NOT a pleasant experience. Buddhism teaches me to imagine hot girls as a pile of skeleton, so far it hasn't worked very well. When I see hot girl my biochemical cascade gets going. So unless Google invents a new glass that superimposes images of octogenarians over the face of everyone I don't see a good solution to this.

 

2. This problem is much more serious than the first one -- my parents keeps pushing girls on me, in the hope that their genetic material will be passed on to future generations. This drives me ABSOLUTELY NUTS! And to make the problem worse I can't talk to them about this. I can't be like, "hey dad, got a minute? I need to talk with you." And he goes, "Sure son, what is it?" And I'm like, "Dad, I don't think I can be a dad myself, ever. I saw how much effort you put into raising me so that I can become who I am today. And I don't think I can, or am even willing, to put in that much effort myself. So that if I were to have a daughter she will grow up to be a hooker and if I were to have a son he will grow up to be a drug addict. Besides I have much better things to do with my life than child-rearing." And he will be like, "Ok son, I respect your decision, as long as you thought it through".

 

The actual conversation will be like, "I will cut off all support for your medical school right now!" while I was in med school, and "Is it too much to ask of you to just give us a grandchild??!! Maybe two??!! We have put you through med school!" now that I am a resident. And my guilt complex is such that I actually feel very very very indebted to my parents for all the hard work they put into raising me. I am willing to get them big house, fancy cars, anything they want that is within my earning potential in the future. (I've already made my dad POA of my bank account, he has free reign over my earnings). But I JUST have 0 motivation to help them pass on their genetic material. (Maybe I will mention the possibility of sperm donorship to them sometime in the future... hmm...) Yet that seems to be their #1 priority/design for me right now. Which is actually not that surprising considering their cultural background.

 

So for each of the girl that they push my way, I have to figure out the girl, and then using what I know about her, manipulate my parents into losing all taste for that girl due to a supposed "fundamental incompatibility in life values between girl and my parents" (a very useful tatic is to tell my parents that the girl insists that I should spend more time with my children than I do with my parents) that I will paint to them. And then I will be let off the hook until the next girl comes along. I've sabotaged about 10 girls this way, and the brain drain involved with each act of sabotage is driving me nuts!

 

So I am curious to know if any of you out there also has similar experiences with your parents, who have done such a great job of parenting and raising us to become physicians that now the whole thing is starting to backfire on us. And of the tactics that you have used to keep your peace of mind, at the same time keeping peace with your parents.

 

mcater2006

[Amadeus89]

Yeah, I don't think your genes are suitable to be passed on...

[ralk]

Sounds like you're a normal human being who's trying really, really hard to pretend that you're not. It's normal to be attracted to attractive girls, and to be a bit flustered when you get a chance to pursue a relationship with one. It's normal not to want to do what your parents want you to do. It's even normal to not want to have kids.

 

However, rather than simply accept those sentiments, you're trying to run from them using pseudo-logical reasons as justification that your actions are somehow correct in an undeniable, objective sense. Those feelings are personal and subjective; trying to convince yourself otherwise leads to the mental mind games you're putting yourself through now.

 

There is no purely logical reason to be single forever; there are reasons to be single and reasons to be in a relationship, but the tradeoff between those reasons is based on what you value out of your life, and whether a relationship will, on the whole, help or hinder with those goals. What you value is up to you and is subjective, so the decision to be in a relationship or not is subjective as well.

 

How you deal with women you are attracted to also follows from those subjective goals. You say you don't want a relationship, yet appear to have pursued some and, when they haven't worked, you've done the classic thing that guys do when they're having trouble with women: you blame the women. Ok, you've also added blaming a part of your brain that you can mentally separate yourself from, but the end result is the same - it's not your fault, it's someone or something else's. This is cognitive dissonance at its most basic level. You've convinced yourself that you don't want a relationship, but when the chips are down, you act as if you do, so you invent flimsy reasons as to why these contradictory facts can occur simultaneously. At the end of the day, you have to decide - if you don't want a relationship, remember the reasons why and don't pursue (or let yourself be pursued by) those few women you find attractive. If you are unable to do this, then your reasons for not wanting a relationship are clearly insufficient. In this case, accept that you actually do want a relationship and start finding ways to make one work.

 

How you approach your parents is, again, going to flow from your subjective values and life goals. This is a more complex situation, where you'll have to balance off your desire to remain on good terms with your parents with a lot of other competing wants and needs in your life. However, once again, resorting to excuses like "I will make a bad parent" isn't going to help - it's probably not true (at best it's a self-fulfilling prophecy), but mainly it's an attempt to avoid the fundamental conflict; that what you want in your life is different from what your parents want in your life. If you don't want kids because of how they'll affect your life and your goals, admit those reasons, express them to your parents, and act accordingly. Right now you're lying to your parents, yourself, or both, in an attempt to avoid this conflict which can't be avoided without pure capitulation.

[Gmaarom]

Dear premed101'ers:

 

... my cerebral cortex, my rational and higher brain has already worked out fully the logic of why it makes sense for me to remain single for the rest of my life and, more importantly, to never father any children

 

But two problems continue creeping up in an otherwise very harmonious life and cause me trouble:

 

1. My reptilian brain (hypothalamus, pons, etc), "lower" brain, further backward in the evolutionary line, still gets turned on by the hot (as per my aesthetics) girls that I come across in my life. This is normally not a problem for me as 99.99% of those girls ignore me, so I ignore them. But in 0.01% of the circumstances the said hot girl will introduce herself, without my consent, to me, and then will go on to say some very intimate things to me and sending me false messages. And then my reptilian system gets revved up and I get very worked up over the said hot girl. She will turn out to be an attention whore in the end, there will be a nasty fallout and I will be left worrying about the possibility of having a law-suit brought against me. I even had to remove my facebook account entirely after a recent encounter of the kind during one of my off-service rotations, it was NOT a pleasant experience. Buddhism teaches me to imagine hot girls as a pile of skeleton, so far it hasn't worked very well. When I see hot girl my biochemical cascade gets going. So unless Google invents a new glass that superimposes images of octogenarians over the face of everyone I don't see a good solution to this.

 

You clearly want to have a good relationship with an attractive lady (as anyone would, unless they have schizoid personality disorder or something).

 

Your problem seems to be that you can't actually attract women (because of lack of looks, poor personality, poor confidence, lack of "game" and charisma, poor social skills, serious anxiety issues, or medical issues or a combination of the aforementioned). As result of your long-standing virgin status, you probably contract a severe case of "one-itus" when any attractive lady gives you the time of day, which never leads to a good outcome (as you alluded to above).

 

So you've developed a defense mechanism to deal with these negative emotions - you've given up hope on being able to get that hot chick, and you're trying to rationalize this with faulty "logic." Of course, deep down you know that you'll never be truly happy without a meaningful relationship and sex-life.

 

I don't think you should give up. Looks aren't everything (as long as you're not hideous or disfigured). You're going to be doctor (which is a huge plus). And you can improve other aspects in order to make yourself more attractive to women.

 

2. This problem is much more serious than the first one -- my parents keeps pushing girls on me, in the hope that their genetic material will be passed on to future generations.

 

Not wanting to have kids (especially at the very start of your residency) is perfectly normal. You shouldn't let your parents force you to do something you don't want to do.

 

Not wanting to get married is normal as well. I think people should experiment with many different partners before "settling down." I cringe at people who marry the first person they date or have sex with. Ultimately 50% of marriages end in divorce. In fact getting married as a future physician is generally an unwise thing to do (unless you're marrying someone with equal or greater income than you and/or you sign a good pre-nup).

 

Again, this is not to say you shouldn't try to play the field. Who knows, maybe you'll eventually fall in love and want kids some day when you're in your mid 40s or something.

[mcater2006]

Dear ralk:

 

So I take 2 points away from you:

 

1. I should abandon my pseudo-logical reasons and instead adapt my actions and feelings as personal and subjective values with no reasons, they just "are", and I am to take them at an axiomatic level.

 

2. That I should realize that my problem #1 is actually an instance of the age-old "sour grapes" problem. I should realize that everything that has happened to me is due only to weakness of my mind, and my cognitive dissonance. That I have no one to blame but myself. That blaming women for everything is a despicable and cowardly act done by misogynistic and sexist men.

 

I will agree with your above two points, and will try to modify my thinking patterns accordingly so that I will think in the right way in the future. However, swallowing all this criticism has been very difficult, like Buckley's, it tastes awful, but I hope it works.

 

I still don't quite get your point about my problem #2.

 

mcater2006

[mcater2006]

Dear Gmaarom:

 

I like your use of the word "one-itus". I looked it up in urban dictionary and have a rough idea of what it is. I will try to modify my thinking and behaviour accordingly in the future to prevent myself from falling into the trappings of one-itus.

 

thanks,

 

mcater2006

[Pink Tulip]

Having no kids means nobody will take care of you when you're old and in a wheelchair. It means you'll be in a retirement home sooner and nobody will visit you because most likely your friends will die off, but maybe you'll be first who knows. It's a very lonely life after your 60s and 70s when you get too old to work a lot and taking care of yourself by yourself becomes a hassle. Say hello to early retirement in a home, it's very likely you'll end up there first.

 

PS: maybe if you tried not pursuing hot girls and instead talked to average girls you will find they may be much less dumb and selfish. You've probably only talked and pursued gold diggers, which is why you get into problems (ps all of them are super hot). A good tip is not telling them you're a doctor until way later if you want to pursue a relationship. Pretending you're poor and seeing if they actually like you before letting them actually know saves a lot of hassle and keeps the gold diggers far away.

[Nietzschean Superman]

I only skimmed through your post and I already hate you.

 

I think the big issue here is not that you don't want to be with someone...I think it's that no one would want to be with you. Think about it, Dr. Phil.

[dazzle]

For all the bashing you've been getting (some of it is helpful criticism), I just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading your OP. Your responses to the comments were dignified as well.

[shady]

I only skimmed through your post and I already hate you.

 

^ ouch. I wouldn't say I hate him. Nothing wrong voicing one's opinion on this forum

 

I'm no psychiatrist, but if I were to hazard a guess I would say OP you sound more like someone who wants a relationship than not. It seems to me that you are trying to justify a position you are in that you clearly don't like. Kind of like a coping mechanism to deal with the fact that you are single.

 

I apologize if you don't like this or if it seems offensive to you. But since you posted on a public forum asking for our opinions, I am giving you mine

[Renin]

That's a pretty sweet call ratio for R1. Good job.

[inthesticks]

[ralk]

Dear ralk:

 

So I take 2 points away from you:

 

1. I should abandon my pseudo-logical reasons and instead adapt my actions and feelings as personal and subjective values with no reasons, they just "are", and I am to take them at an axiomatic level.

 

2. That I should realize that my problem #1 is actually an instance of the age-old "sour grapes" problem. I should realize that everything that has happened to me is due only to weakness of my mind, and my cognitive dissonance. That I have no one to blame but myself. That blaming women for everything is a despicable and cowardly act done by misogynistic and sexist men.

 

I will agree with your above two points, and will try to modify my thinking patterns accordingly so that I will think in the right way in the future. However, swallowing all this criticism has been very difficult, like Buckley's, it tastes awful, but I hope it works.

 

I still don't quite get your point about my problem #2.

 

mcater2006

 

Heh, I was a bit harsh, and for exactly the reason your state - it's really hard to change how to look at things. Just to respond to the point 1 in this post, it's not that you should have no reasons for your preferences on relationships, etc., but rather that those reasons will be personal, not objective. As you can tell by some of the reactions in this thread, very few people are be swayed by your attempts to rationalize your views from a non-personal or value-based standpoint; they ring pretty hollow, and even offend some people. More importantly, your actions suggest you haven't convinced yourself, and that's what has led to a bit of an internal conflict.

 

As to my point about problem #2, I'll be honest, it's a more complex issue and I was getting tired; I didn't have time write out a full response with the appropriate nuance. For the time being, I'll simply leave you with a question on that front: what kind of relationship with your parents do you want, and what are you willing to put up with to maintain that relationship?

[shady]

Wait a minute, why don't OP and Renin date?

 

She hates men who make little money because she makes a lot. He hates gold diggers. Both in Alberta right? Both in psych. So much in common

 

/iamthebestmatchmakerever

[mcater2006]

PS: maybe if you tried not pursuing hot girls and instead talked to average girls you will find they may be much less dumb and selfish. You've probably only talked and pursued gold diggers, which is why you get into problems (ps all of them are super hot). A good tip is not telling them you're a doctor until way later if you want to pursue a relationship. Pretending you're poor and seeing if they actually like you before letting them actually know saves a lot of hassle and keeps the gold diggers far away.

 

I have come to that realization since I started med school. The problem is that the incidents in my problem #1 happen (i.e. gold diggers saw me for the first time) while I am on duty at the hospital, so there was no way for me to cover up my real identity. I have already known nurses to act that way so I am immune to their advances. However incidents in my problem #1 happened with other allied health care professionals, whom I have not been as guarded about. Since problem #1 I have learned to keep huge guards up the moment I step into the hospital.

[NutritionRunner]

Having no kids means nobody will take care of you when you're old and in a wheelchair. It means you'll be in a retirement home sooner and nobody will visit you because most likely your friends will die off, but maybe you'll be first who knows. It's a very lonely life after your 60s and 70s when you get too old to work a lot and taking care of yourself by yourself becomes a hassle. Say hello to early retirement in a home, it's very likely you'll end up there first.

 

I think that's a pretty lousy and selfish reason to have children! My husband and I have made a conscious decision not to have children. I'm not worried about the fact that I won't have anyone to "look after me" when I'm older, as I personally think that is the worst possible reason to have children. My husband and I have carefully planned for our retirement, and if we end up living in a retirement home, well, so be it. We're doing our best to live healthy, active lives, and while we know that's no guarantee of lifelong health, it does improve the odds. We hope to be active into our 90s, much like three of my husband's grandparents. If not, oh well.

 

Besides, having children is no guarantee they'll look after you when you are older. Even if you raise your children "right," they may still decide not to look after you or care for you when you are elderly. Or they may not be able to, for a whole variety of reasons (they could be mentally or physically disabled, they could live far away, they could marry someone who doesn't like you, etc.) As a volunteer who works with elderly individuals, I can say that, sadly, there are plenty of older individuals who have children who never come and visit them.

[mcater2006]

Having no kids means nobody will take care of you when you're old and in a wheelchair. It means you'll be in a retirement home sooner and nobody will visit you because most likely your friends will die off, but maybe you'll be first who knows. It's a very lonely life after your 60s and 70s when you get too old to work a lot and taking care of yourself by yourself becomes a hassle. Say hello to early retirement in a home, it's very likely you'll end up there first.

 

I can't imagine my patients/clients taking care of their parents. If anything their parents might have to take care of them. Imagine if I had kids like that!

[mcater2006]

For all the bashing you've been getting (some of it is helpful criticism), I just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading your OP. Your responses to the comments were dignified as well.

 

Thanks for your compliment.

[mcater2006]

I'm no psychiatrist, but if I were to hazard a guess I would say OP you sound more like someone who wants a relationship than not. It seems to me that you are trying to justify a position you are in that you clearly don't like. Kind of like a coping mechanism to deal with the fact that you are single.

 

I guess you are right in that I want a relationship. However I have struggled with this dilemma for a very long time:

 

The people that are "ugly" are not "ugly" due to any fault of their own, but rather due to the genetic makeup of their parents. So I perceive that if I were to go after "hot" people, it would be really unfair to the "ugly" people. So that if I were to eventually marry, I would have to marry an "ugly" person so that it will sit well with my conscience. However the "ugliness" will be passed on to our children, significantly curtailing their future potentials in our society which places so much on looks. I want to give my children best of everything.

 

Hence my dilemma. Until this dilemma is resolved I cannot see myself getting involved with any relationships in any real sense of the word.

[mcater2006]

That's a pretty sweet call ratio for R1. Good job.

 

Thanks for your compliment! I loooooooooooooove my school! mcater2006

[mcater2006]

As to my point about problem #2, I'll be honest, it's a more complex issue and I was getting tired; I didn't have time write out a full response with the appropriate nuance. For the time being, I'll simply leave you with a question on that front: what kind of relationship with your parents do you want, and what are you willing to put up with to maintain that relationship?

 

I guess you (like a Zen master) have made me realize the answer to my own question is already in my OP: that I am willing to put up with everything short of actually going ahead to start a family that my parents have designed for me.

[Pink Tulip]

I have come to that realization since I started med school. The problem is that the incidents in my problem #1 happen (i.e. gold diggers saw me for the first time) while I am on duty at the hospital, so there was no way for me to cover up my real identity. I have already known nurses to act that way so I am immune to their advances. However incidents in my problem #1 happened with other allied health care professionals, whom I have not been as guarded about. Since problem #1 I have learned to keep huge guards up the moment I step into the hospital.

 

Tip #2: date and meet people outside of healthcare. Just because you're a doctor doesn't mean you have to date someone who takes are of people too. Dating at the same workplace is messy anyways. Find a hobby then find some girls who share that hobby (I know easier said than done). I feel bad that girls keep advancing on you when you don't want it, it's actually not that easy to get away from all the time and can mess things up where you are. Let it be known in your workplace that you have no interest in datin and then just look elsewhere. Someone will pop up eventually.

 

Also for the kids: it's really only a North American tradition to leave your parents in the dust and to fend for themselves. I have family and family friends in Europe or from there and they all take care of their parents. Most of the grandparents live next door so it's not like they have to watch over them 24/7 yet and it's easier on the child. It's a valid reason for having children and not having them means you are potentially losing out on it. I pointed it out because OP didn't seem interested in the other reasons why people typically have children.

 

I've already told my dad he can be my personal chef and I'll stroll him around in his wheelchair with a keg attached. You try getting a nurse in a retirement home to do that for you.

[mcater2006]

Wait a minute, why don't OP and Renin date?

 

She hates men who make little money because she makes a lot. He hates gold diggers. Both in Alberta right? Both in psych. So much in common

 

/iamthebestmatchmakerever

 

Sadly I am not in Alberta. Besides I feel so much kinship with everyone here that it would be like incest for me to date Renin.

[NutritionRunner]

I guess you (like a Zen master) have made me realize the answer to my own question is already in my OP: that I am willing to put up with everything short of actually going ahead to start a family that my parents have designed for me.

 

Why can't you just be honest with your parents? Tell them that, right now, you aren't looking for a long term relationship and that you aren't ready to start a family.

[mcater2006]

Why can't you just be honest with your parents? Tell them that, right now, you aren't looking for a long term relationship and that you aren't ready to start a family.

 

That will break their hearts, I don't want to break their hearts. They have been good parents to me. Even though their own marriage has failed.