Multiple electives at one school

[JimmyDD]

Hello,

 

I am currently applying for 4th year electives in a surgical subspecialty. I am interested in a particular program and I am thinking of doing two 2 week electives at this program. Would having 2 electives at this location (not my home school) vs. 1 elective at all other schools be viewed in a negative light by the other school come CaRMS? I have heard some say this is an obvious indication that I have a preference for that program and this would hurt my chances at other schools. Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

 

Thanks!

[BK47]

Obviously they might think you would have a preference for somewhere else but I doubt it would be a deal breaker, provided you're a strong applicant for what is (presumably) a competitive surgical subspecialty (whichever one you're applying to...)

[APYYT]

Do you think doing this (what the OP said) would be a deal breaker if it came down to 2 applicants for another school? Or on the other hand, could it be a positive if it cane down to 2 applicants for the school you did 2 electives in?

 

hmmmm lots to consider

[Lactic Folly]

I would wager the schools are more interested in whether you did an elective at *their* school, i.e. if you did not visit their school and you did two at another school, it would likely hurt more than if you also did one elective at their school, in which case their impression of you would trump that of your electives schedule.

[Larrivee]

What about if you do 2 electives at your home school... Is that understandable by other programs because your home school is kind of the "default" or does it automatically imply that you are most interested in your home school?

[Lactic Folly]

What about if you do 2 electives at your home school... Is that understandable by other programs because your home school is kind of the "default" or does it automatically imply that you are most interested in your home school?

 

No, I don't think it implies that automatically. It's certainly cheaper and logistically easier to do more electives at your home school in most cases.

[bloh]

Programs don't give a **** about this sort of stuff.

 

They are ranking you on the basis of how good a candidate you are and that's how they will rank their list. They aren't going to put you down on the list just because you've made it somewhat clear that you favour other programs of the same discipline.

[APYYT]

Programs don't give a **** about this sort of stuff.

 

They are ranking you on the basis of how good a candidate you are and that's how they will rank their list. They aren't going to put you down on the list just because you've made it somewhat clear that you favour other programs of the same discipline.

 

I've heard from interviewees that it does make some difference (ie if you're from the east coast and want to interview in BC, you should do AT LEAST one elective there since you want to show interest in moving across the country, why you want to be there etc etc)

[bloh]

I've heard from interviewees that it does make some difference (ie if you're from the east coast and want to interview in BC, you should do AT LEAST one elective there since you want to show interest in moving across the country, why you want to be there etc etc)

 

That has nothing to do with the original topic/question.

[burrb]

Programs don't give a **** about this sort of stuff.

 

They are ranking you on the basis of how good a candidate you are and that's how they will rank their list. They aren't going to put you down on the list just because you've made it somewhat clear that you favour other programs of the same discipline.

This is absolutely wrong.

 

The smaller the program, the more they care about where you did your electives and your interest in a specific program. In fact, within one subspecialty, programs will talk to each other and find out each others rank lists for mutual benefit.

 

If a field is small and competitive, do electives at every school you may even be slightly interested in getting into. If you heavily favour one particular school, throw more eggs in that basket, but it comes at a cost of potentially falling a few spots lower on the lists of other programs. However if you truly stand out above the pool of other applicants, you'll be high up on any list.

[burrb]

What about if you do 2 electives at your home school... Is that understandable by other programs because your home school is kind of the "default" or does it automatically imply that you are most interested in your home school?

Depends. If 2 of your 3 referees are also from your home school you will be labelled as gunning for your own school, and this may not be advantageous. On the other hand if you have done 6 weeks at one school and do not choose to use a reference letter from there, this will bring up questions as to why.

[keith_015]

Depends. If 2 of your 3 referees are also from your home school you will be labelled as gunning for your own school, and this may not be advantageous.

 

That is complete crap. Some schools such as my own start electives late, as in beginning in October. That really gives you really 6 weeks to prove yourself for reference letters before submitting CaRMS. And if you didn't do well?...

 

I sure did well for getting interviews broadly with all my referees being from my home school, aside for a select specialty I applied to with a referee from another school.

[bloh]

This is absolutely wrong.

 

The smaller the program, the more they care about where you did your electives and your interest in a specific program. In fact, within one subspecialty, programs will talk to each other and find out each others rank lists for mutual benefit.

 

If a field is small and competitive, do electives at every school you may even be slightly interested in getting into. If you heavily favour one particular school, throw more eggs in that basket, but it comes at a cost of potentially falling a few spots lower on the lists of other programs. However if you truly stand out above the pool of other applicants, you'll be high up on any list.

 

So what you are suggesting is that programs will purposefully rank a BETTER CANDIDATE lower on their rank list because that candidate may or may not have a preference for another site for a million other reasons?

 

No I think by logical reasoning, you are absolutely wrong. Every candidate has a preference and everyone knows this, but it still doesn't change the fact that programs want to work with whoever they consider the best applicant.

[Lactic Folly]

So what you are suggesting is that programs will purposefully rank a BETTER CANDIDATE lower on their rank list because that candidate may or may not have a preference for another site for a million other reasons?

 

No I think by logical reasoning, you are absolutely wrong. Every candidate has a preference and everyone knows this, but it still doesn't change the fact that programs want to work with whoever they consider the best applicant.

 

I think this is correct inasmuch as you are referring to the ranking stage; however, perceived candidate preferences may come into play more during initial screening, when limited interview slots are being allocated.

[burrb]

That is complete crap. Some schools such as my own start electives late, as in beginning in October. That really gives you really 6 weeks to prove yourself for reference letters before submitting CaRMS. And if you didn't do well?...

 

I sure did well for getting interviews broadly with all my referees being from my home school, aside for a select specialty I applied to with a referee from another school.

Interviewing broadly means nothing. A lot of smaller programs interview everyone anyway lol. If you interviewed broadly for like, you know, family medicine, well welcome to the norm.

 

Also you have 6 weeks of pre-CaRMs elective time..? That is messed up.

[burrb]

So what you are suggesting is that programs will purposefully rank a BETTER CANDIDATE lower on their rank list because that candidate may or may not have a preference for another site for a million other reasons?

correct. It's not as clear cut as that, but if a candidate has family in a particular city and shows great interest in a particular program as a result, they will be ranked higher for that program (than they may merit) and slightly lower for others. This only applies to very small programs.

 

No I think by logical reasoning, you are absolutely wrong. Every candidate has a preference and everyone knows this, but it still doesn't change the fact that programs want to work with whoever they consider the best applicant.

Not everyone has a preference for location. The smart folks do electives everywhere and don't show significant favouritism. Unless of course you're a superstar amongst superstars, then I suppose you can do what you want and you'll be ranked very highly regardless.

 

My whole point is that where you do your electives and from whom you get your reference letters from matters a lot. don't think that you can show favouritism by spending all your time with one program and expect the programs to not show favouritism as well. It's not all about who's better, unless you're significantly better.

[bloh]

correct. It's not as clear cut as that, but if a candidate has family in a particular city and shows great interest in a particular program as a result, they will be ranked higher for that program (than they may merit) and slightly lower for others. This only applies to very small programs.

 

 

Not everyone has a preference for location. The smart folks do electives everywhere and don't show significant favouritism. Unless of course you're a superstar amongst superstars, then I suppose you can do what you want and you'll be ranked very highly regardless.

 

My whole point is that where you do your electives and from whom you get your reference letters from matters a lot. don't think that you can show favouritism by spending all your time with one program and expect the programs to not show favouritism as well. It's not all about who's better, unless you're significantly better.

 

Again, it has zero merit and no one cares where you have family. Everyone has family. A program won't rank you above a better candidate to feel sorry for you so you can be close to your grandma. It does not matter.

 

They have to put up with you for 5 long years.

They rely on you.

Your grandma plays zero part in the process.

 

Candidates are ranked based on merit. And then they let applicants rank list decide how much family matters to them.

[keith_015]

Interviewing broadly means nothing. A lot of smaller programs interview everyone anyway lol.

 

Ask ER and IM applicants around the country how important that was this year.

 

 

If you interviewed broadly for like, you know, family medicine, well welcome to the norm.

 

Way to insult anyone applying to family medicine. Not all places give automatic interviews and applicants still have to earn interviews.

[burrb]

Again, it has zero merit and no one cares where you have family. Everyone has family. A program won't rank you above a better candidate to feel sorry for you so you can be close to your grandma. It does not matter.

 

They have to put up with you for 5 long years.

They rely on you.

Your grandma plays zero part in the process.

 

Candidates are ranked based on merit. And then they let applicants rank list decide how much family matters to them.

 

Candidates are NOT rankly solely based on merit. Programs are VERY interested where you family is. If you're from BC and you did half your electives out west and your wife and child are in Vancouver and you're trying to convince the panel you want to come to Ottawa for plastic surgery, that WILL count against you, unless you are absolutely godly. I don't really care if you believe me or not, it's moot now anyways.

[burrb]

Ask ER and IM applicants around the country how important that was this year.

I was an IM applicant. I got all my interviews and I think it means diddly. My whole point was targeted towards smaller programs anyway.

 

 

 

 

Way to insult anyone applying to family medicine. Not all places give automatic interviews and applicants still have to earn interviews.

I also applied to family medicine. I wasn't being insulting in saying that many family medicine programs basically hand out interviews like candy. Their process is different -- interview everyone who applied but weed them out with their file afterwards. How is that insulting?

 

Edit: Welp, I've made keith_015 very nervous for match day it seems. I'll stop now lol.

[bloh]

Candidates are NOT rankly solely based on merit. Programs are VERY interested where you family is. If you're from BC and you did half your electives out west and your wife and child are in Vancouver and you're trying to convince the panel you want to come to Ottawa for plastic surgery, that WILL count against you, unless you are absolutely godly. I don't really care if you believe me or not, it's moot now anyways.

 

But you are wrong and no program will count it against that person. If they like you, they will rank you high and will let the applicants rank list decide the outcome. Why is logic being completely lost in the CARMs match algorithm? The program has nothing to lose by ranking you high and chance to lose a good candidate by making assumptions that may be wrong. There are no guarantees in Carms:

 

1. that applicant may genuinely not want Vancouver

2. that applicant may not get vancouver.

 

 

When it comes to smaller programs, most applicants don't get their first choice anyway so for programs to put someone good down on the list in lieu of a poorer candidate is absurd.

 

And it isn't a moot point because you're trying to make a case that the OP is ruining his chances across the country by doing a 2nd elective in one place.

[Lactic Folly]

Ok, I think you're both right, so I'll repeat here. If someone seems strong but with a geographic preference for the opposite side of the country, could it hurt their chances of getting an interview? Sure, if the program has more applicants than it can interview, and doesn't want to waste a spot on someone who is very unlikely to end up there.

 

But once the decision has been made to interview the applicant, the geographic preference becomes less important to ranking, because as you said, it is most logical for the program to rank according to desirability.

[Jochi1543]

Candidates are NOT rankly solely based on merit. Programs are VERY interested where you family is.

 

No, they are not. I spent like half my BC interview talking about how my husband is unable to leave AB for work reasons and how it would be so difficult to be separated, and then I matched to BC. Then my PD was wondering why I was having trouble adjusting, lol.

[keith_015]

I also applied to family medicine. I wasn't being insulting in saying that many family medicine programs basically hand out interviews like candy. Their process is different -- interview everyone who applied but weed them out with their file afterwards. How is that insulting?

 

You may think they all FM programs would have interviewed everyone, but I have heard from a number of classmates who weren't offered interviews at some programs, especially Western Canadian ones. That's why I am saying its not an automatic. Your experience may have been different, but don't assume everyone is walking in your shoes.

 

Edit: Welp, I've made keith_015 very nervous for match day it seems. I'll stop now lol.

 

I am the least bit nervous for Match Day. I'm sleeping well at night.

[JPicasso]

Some schools only give out interviews to the people who have done electives at their school.

 

For example, Ottawa anesthesia only interviewed people that did electives there this year. Same thing with UBC and Calgary.

 

This might not hold true all the time, but it's been consistent lately.

 

Certain specialties really like to see you do electives in their specialty. The electives basically tell the story. If you did 8 weeks of ophtho, 2 emerg for example... and you apply for emerg. Guess what? They already know you want to do ophtho and you're backing up with emerg.