Mcgill Med Program Put On Probation?

[武田信玄]

I believe Ottawa is, but they only have a few problems to address - not "two dozens"!.

LOL, karma sure is a bitch!

[oshaku]

Did McGill recently revamp their curriculum?

 

Also, probation does not equal loss of accreditation- students will still receive their MD as they have in the past. However, makes me wonder if this will affect the number of applicants to one of Canada's most reputable schools- Saskatchewan experienced something very similar, although they also changed some requirements, so that may be it.

 

Yes. McGill revamped their curriculum two years ago so a lot of the problems were about not having stats on various effects of the new curriculum.  It's also unfortunate with a lot of the McGill-affiliated hospitals moving to the new superhospital that logistics is a nightmare (another big chunk of the problem with the accreditation).

 

 

I don't think so, McGill doesn't really compete for the same candidates as other schools as its the only English speaking medical school in Quebec, it still is. 

 

It might have an impact on the 16 or so OOP students that McGill accepts each year but by and large things will not change. 

 

well, considering ~800 OOP applicants apply to McGill's 12 spots, even if the number of OOP applicants is halved, McGill will still have no problem getting the crème de la crème

[amichel]

Let me get this straight.

 

- nothing is wrong with academics. You heard me, the curriculum is fine.

 

I invite you all to look at the report.

Everything that's non compliant is either

1- too new, so we don't know yet

2- administrative stuff in nature.

 

The full reports and tentative plans are here. Please have a read rather than reading misleading b.s. journalism.

https://www.mcgill.ca/medicine/about/our-vision-mission-values/update-accreditation

 

Everybody who will study at McGill will get their MD, and will be eligible for residency.

Sask and Dal have been on probation too before. It never affected matching etc......

 

Also, say you have 10 days to do something. At day 8, you haven't reached all the objectives yet, but you still have 2 days left. ''journalism'' now is trying to say at day 8 that McGill might lose accreditation, which is misleading. McGill is on PROBATION. Probation means FULLY ACCREDITED, but needs to fix a few things.

 

Edit: probation happens all the time. Do not just simply read super biased articles written by journalists who don't even know what the hell it's going on.

Another example of probation of a residency program: http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/sante/201412/11/01-4827543-harcelement-a-ludem-le-programme-de-chirurgie-plastique-menace.php

Hmmm. I'm in complete agreement with you about not just trusting the news article, and that probation is not all that big of a deal.

 

However; I'm going to have to disagree that they are all related to the new curriculum or administrative.

 

To name a few things I think are more worrying:

Frequent work hour violations (I'm sure it happens everywhere but if you have a written policy you should probably stick to it)

Inadequate supervision of clerks (inability to reach on call attending)

Inadequate mental health services for students and student reluctance to access these services

 

There's more, but I've already forgotten. I'm sure they'll get fixed and it'll all be fine, I just don't think a characterization of the violations as trivial is fair.

[Sceptical]

Here's a few useful links regarding the accreditation status of McGill's Faculty of Medicine (i.e. the details). The faculty has decided to make publicly available the accreditation letter issued by the CACMS/LCME to the university.

"Faculty of Medicine addressing accreditation issues, Eidelman says"
http://publications.mcgill.ca/reporter/2015/06/faculty-of-medicine-addressing-accreditation-issues-eidelman-says/

Preliminary Action Plan Framework
https://www.mcgill.ca/medicine/files/medicine/cacms_2015_accreditation_preliminary_action_plan_framework.pdf

Accreditation Letter
https://www.mcgill.ca/medicine/files/medicine/2015_june_-_mcgill_-_full_survey_-_accreditation_letter.pdf

[Organomegaly]

Hmmm. I'm in complete agreement with you about not just trusting the news article, and that probation is not all that big of a deal.

 

However; I'm going to have to disagree that they are all related to the new curriculum or administrative.

 

To name a few things I think are more worrying:

Frequent work hour violations (I'm sure it happens everywhere but if you have a written policy you should probably stick to it)

Inadequate supervision of clerks (inability to reach on call attending)

Inadequate mental health services for students and student reluctance to access these services

 

There's more, but I've already forgotten. I'm sure they'll get fixed and it'll all be fine, I just don't think a characterization of the violations as trivial is fair.

 

I agree. Not all trivial

 

1) Lack of appropriate infrastructure at hospitals, including absent call rooms

2) Students not comfortable to report mistreatment due to perceived lack of confidentiality and follow-up

3) Issues with a learner unfriendly environment in the hospitals

4) Inadequate access to mental health or some health services in general at the Gatineau campus

5) Far less administrative attention at the Gatineau campus

6) Violations of workload policy in all clerkship rotations except family and psych

7) Inadequate supervision of clerks in surgery rotations

[LittleDaisy]

I agree with the inadequate supervision of clerks during call attending, it happened to a few people I knew in surgery. 

For the objectives of medical education, it is important that the faculty makes it clear to the students.

McGill is a great medical school with strong funding, I am sure that they will fix the issues brought up within the deadline. For those admitted to McGill, don't worry about it. The probation will truly help (IMO) the faculty to improve the issues addressed and to make the new curriculum more adaptable to medical students. 

Hmmm. I'm in complete agreement with you about not just trusting the news article, and that probation is not all that big of a deal.

However; I'm going to have to disagree that they are all related to the new curriculum or administrative.

To name a few things I think are more worrying:
Frequent work hour violations (I'm sure it happens everywhere but if you have a written policy you should probably stick to it)
Inadequate supervision of clerks (inability to reach on call attending)
Inadequate mental health services for students and student reluctance to access these services

There's more, but I've already forgotten. I'm sure they'll get fixed and it'll all be fine, I just don't think a characterization of the violations as trivial is fair.

[amichel]

I agree with the inadequate supervision of clerks during call attending, it happened to a few people I knew in surgery.

For the objectives of medical education, it is important that the faculty makes it clear to the students.

McGill is a great medical school with strong funding, I am sure that they will fix the issues brought up within the deadline. For those admitted to McGill, don't worry about it. The probation will truly help (IMO) the faculty to improve the issues addressed and to make the new curriculum more adaptable to medical students.

Yah for sure it will help! That's the point. Was just pointing out that there do appear to be some issues.

[Fleming]

Keeping all the programs across the country on their toes is precisely the reason why Canadian medical schools have the excellent reputations they do. The Canadian accrediting bodies' frequent monitoring of all the schools ensures each and every one remains strong. Particularly when a new curriculum is put in place, recommendations, such as those published in the report, are essential to guaranteeing that all the students continue to receive a top-notch education.

 

As UBC is also going through a curriculum renewal, I for one am glad that such new curricula are being monitored and will be excellent. I hope UBC's administrators go through this McGill report with a fine-toothed comb to verify that they've met all requirements that McGill fell short on.

 

As for McGill itself (a school I have great affection for, having spent 4 years there), they will be just fine. The school has been around forever, and will continue to be excellent long into the future.

[Organomegaly]

This is off topic , but how is your MD program 5 years Daisy

[LittleDaisy]

Ahahah yes, it is totally fine!

I study medicine in Quebec, so I was very lucky to get into medical school after 2 years of cegep (grade 12+ 1 year of science concentration, for 45- 50% of Quebec med students and the 50% remaining are bachelor students). So for cegep students, we need to do 1 year of premed year (for UdM and McGill). I am very happy that I was able to get into medicine after cegep, since I could not afford the luxury of doing a four year bachelor program, I still live on student loans and bursaries, and my parents couldn't really help further. 

 

For those worried about the McGill Med's approbation issues, I am sorry if I scared anyone today. I just happened to see this news over my social media and would like to share with the premed forum. McGill is a great medical school, it has such a nice strong medicine history tradition; I am pretty sure that the faculty will solve the issues brought up with delicacy. Just very glad that Canadian medical schools are constantly supervised by the accreditation committee, it really helps to make sure that all the Canadian medical students receive the best medical education (IMO)

This is off topic , but how is your MD program 5 years Daisy

[sultanator]

Not quite surprised by what's happening to McGill...

The program is still good; however, the school has been surfing on their name recognition and reputation for way too long and lots problematic issues have been swept under the rug and excused... Cuz you know ... It's McGill after all.

 

This probation is nowhere near as dramatic as the media make it look like but it's definitely a wake up call for McGill and most importantly a lesson in humility.

[Username92]

Here's a few useful links regarding the accreditation status of McGill's Faculty of Medicine (i.e. the details). The faculty has decided to make publicly available the accreditation letter issued by the CACMS/LCME to the university.

 

"Faculty of Medicine addressing accreditation issues, Eidelman says"

http://publications.mcgill.ca/reporter/2015/06/faculty-of-medicine-addressing-accreditation-issues-eidelman-says/

 

Preliminary Action Plan Framework

https://www.mcgill.ca/medicine/files/medicine/cacms_2015_accreditation_preliminary_action_plan_framework.pdf

 

Accreditation Letter

https://www.mcgill.ca/medicine/files/medicine/2015_june_-_mcgill_-_full_survey_-_accreditation_letter.pdf

 

Ahhhhh I recognise you now from the Class of 2019 group ;D

[Username92]

And from reading the whole report, the majority of the issue at hand really seems to be administrative - unfortunately, the whole story was overblown by our lovely montreal medias, who didn't even care about posting any of the files relevant to the problematic. More McGill bashing wouhou!

[amichel]

And from reading the whole report, the majority of the issue at hand really seems to be administrative - unfortunately, the whole story was overblown by our lovely montreal medias, who didn't even care about posting any of the files relevant to the problematic. More McGill bashing wouhou!

 

Hmm... I thought many of them weren't administrative at all.  Not sure if there are different reports floating around.  

[Username92]

Hmm... I thought many of them weren't administrative at all.  Not sure if there are different reports floating around.  

 

I'm using the one posted by Sceptical

 

A lot of things involving being aware of educational objectives, narratives assessments, curriculum mapping, speed of grades posting (lol), 3-4 about not visiting something something in Gatineau enough. Administrative fixes. Most of them were in the ''non-compliant'' section. 

 

Off course, considering McGill has started a new curriculum recently, some course content has been found to be lacking, some supervisions have been inadequate, etc. Most of them are compliant, with a need for monitoring. Not worried about those at all: new curriculum, new hospital: once the dust is settled, everything should be just fine 

[amichel]

I'm using the one posted by Sceptical

 

A lot of things involving being aware of educational objectives, narratives assessments, curriculum mapping, speed of grades posting (lol), 3-4 about not visiting something something in Gatineau enough. Administrative fixes. Most of them were in the ''non-compliant'' section.

 

Off course, considering McGill has started a new curriculum recently, some course content has been found to be lacking, some supervisions have been inadequate, etc. Most of them are compliant, with a need for monitoring. Not worried about those at all: new curriculum, new hospital: once the dust is settled, everything should be just fine

What about the more serious ones outlined above as well as the ones that are labelled "recurrent issues"

 

I totally understand wanting to be optimistic about your future school but you should be aware of the issues (that every school has) as well.

[amichel]

I'm using the one posted by Sceptical

 

A lot of things involving being aware of educational objectives, narratives assessments, curriculum mapping, speed of grades posting (lol), 3-4 about not visiting something something in Gatineau enough. Administrative fixes. Most of them were in the ''non-compliant'' section.

 

Off course, considering McGill has started a new curriculum recently, some course content has been found to be lacking, some supervisions have been inadequate, etc. Most of them are compliant, with a need for monitoring. Not worried about those at all: new curriculum, new hospital: once the dust is settled, everything should be just fine

What about the more serious ones outlined above as well as the ones that are labelled "recurrent issues"

 

I totally understand wanting to be optimistic about your future school but you should be aware of the issues (that every school has) as well.

[ralk]

Let me get this straight.

 

- nothing is wrong with academics. You heard me, the curriculum is fine.

 

I invite you all to look at the report.

Everything that's non compliant is either

1- too new, so we don't know yet

2- administrative stuff in nature.

 

The full reports and tentative plans are here. Please have a read rather than reading misleading b.s. journalism.

https://www.mcgill.ca/medicine/about/our-vision-mission-values/update-accreditation

 

Everybody who will study at McGill will get their MD, and will be eligible for residency.

Sask and Dal have been on probation too before. It never affected matching etc......

 

Also, say you have 10 days to do something. At day 8, you haven't reached all the objectives yet, but you still have 2 days left. ''journalism'' now is trying to say at day 8 that McGill might lose accreditation, which is misleading. McGill is on PROBATION. Probation means FULLY ACCREDITED, but needs to fix a few things.

 

Edit: probation happens all the time. Do not just simply read super biased articles written by journalists who don't even know what the hell it's going on.

Another example of probation of a residency program: http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/sante/201412/11/01-4827543-harcelement-a-ludem-le-programme-de-chirurgie-plastique-menace.php

 

First, administrative problems are often the cause of real problems, both for patients and students. Saying something is an administrative problem in no way makes that problem any less worrisome.

 

Secondly, not all the areas of non-compliance are administrative in nature. Several are based on infrastructure. More than a few cite inadequate instruction. There appear to be noticeable inconsistencies between sites. The inability for surgical clerks to contact their supervisors in an acute situation is hardly an administrative problem and is completely unacceptable.

 

It's true that going on probation is not an end-of-the-world situation. Every school has areas for improvement and when those areas become increasingly worrisome, probation can become a strong motivator for positive change. It's as much an opportunity for meaningful improvement as it is a concern for current standards. All the problems identified seem correctable if given the necessary attention and the school appears to be responding appropriately. Their willingness to post the accreditation letter publicly is both encouraging and refreshing to see. I have full confidence that McGill will get through this process in good standing. However, to dismiss or diminish the criticisms is counterproductive - there are serious concerns listed that require attention, some of which are evidently recurring issues.

[makingfetchhappen]

Not quite surprised by what's happening to McGill...

The program is still good; however, the school has been surfing on their name recognition and reputation for way too long and lots problematic issues have been swept under the rug and excused... Cuz you know ... It's McGill after all.

 

This probation is nowhere near as dramatic as the media make it look like but it's definitely a wake up call for McGill and most importantly a lesson in humility.

Ha, I agree. The name recognition and reputation of McGill really seems to transcend all earthly limits. Americans especially put a high value on this no matter the program. It is a great school I do not doubt that. But it is funny how much credit it gets compared to other great Canadian universities.

 

Even Duddy Kravitz was jealous of his brother who went to McGill med, right?

[LittleDaisy]

If you have some spare time, you could read this document: https://www.mcgill.ca/medicine/files/medicine/2015_june_-_mcgill_-_full_survey_-_accreditation_letter.pdf

 

It explains some of the issues addressed by the accreditation committee. Now some of the issues were brought up by the medical students in McGill (through survey). It shows that the medical students are not very happy with the medical curriculum. 

 

For example: 

 

An institution that offers a medical education program must engage in a planning process that sets the direction for its program and results in measurable outcomes

 

1. The faculty of an institution that offers a medical education program must define the objectives of its program. The objectives must serve as guides for establishing curriculum content and provide the basis for evaluating the effectiveness of the program

 

At a medical education program, students in clinical learning situations involving patient care must be appropriately supervised at all times. While students learn through graded responsibility as their skills progress, supervision at all times must ensure patient and student safety..

 

A medical education program must have written and signed affiliation agreements in place with its clinical affiliates that define, at a minimum, the responsibilities of each party related to the educational program for medical students.

 

If I could give two concrete examples that my good friends at McGill gave me. For the class of 2017, they didn't have a block in hematology. The faculty gave them one lecture in anemia and expected them to learn the system by themselves. Now, at UdM, we learn hematology through APP, but we do have clear objectives and one lecture class every week where the teachers sum up the important information and answer the students' questions. 

 

One of my friend did a clinical elective at McGill in GIM. He overworked as a clerk with minimal supervision. He didn't appreciate the fact that a lot of teachings were cancelled last minute, since the preceptors were too busy with research and had some last minute plans. After his clinical elective, he decided to rank UofT over McGill for IM For the better quality of teaching and for the organization of the residency program. 

 

Nevertheless, McGill is a great medical student, with strong and outstanding innovation in medical research. I doubt that it will hurt its international ranking in the near future. If the faculty could some time and effort to address some issues brought up, it would be truly beneficial to the medical students and to the future residents. It is for a good cause! (IMO)

I'm using the one posted by Sceptical

 

A lot of things involving being aware of educational objectives, narratives assessments, curriculum mapping, speed of grades posting (lol), 3-4 about not visiting something something in Gatineau enough. Administrative fixes. Most of them were in the ''non-compliant'' section. 

 

Off course, considering McGill has started a new curriculum recently, some course content has been found to be lacking, some supervisions have been inadequate, etc. Most of them are compliant, with a need for monitoring. Not worried about those at all: new curriculum, new hospital: once the dust is settled, everything should be just fine 

[LittleDaisy]

***great medical school, sorry I didn't drink my coffee this morning ahahha

If you have some spare time, you could read this document: https://www.mcgill.ca/medicine/files/medicine/2015_june_-_mcgill_-_full_survey_-_accreditation_letter.pdf

 

It explains some of the issues addressed by the accreditation committee. Now some of the issues were brought up by the medical students in McGill (through survey). It shows that the medical students are not very happy with the medical curriculum. 

 

For example: 

 

An institution that offers a medical education program must engage in a planning process that sets the direction for its program and results in measurable outcomes

 

1. The faculty of an institution that offers a medical education program must define the objectives of its program. The objectives must serve as guides for establishing curriculum content and provide the basis for evaluating the effectiveness of the program

 

At a medical education program, students in clinical learning situations involving patient care must be appropriately supervised at all times. While students learn through graded responsibility as their skills progress, supervision at all times must ensure patient and student safety..

 

A medical education program must have written and signed affiliation agreements in place with its clinical affiliates that define, at a minimum, the responsibilities of each party related to the educational program for medical students.

 

If I could give two concrete examples that my good friends at McGill gave me. For the class of 2017, they didn't have a block in hematology. The faculty gave them one lecture in anemia and expected them to learn the system by themselves. Now, at UdM, we learn hematology through APP, but we do have clear objectives and one lecture class every week where the teachers sum up the important information and answer the students' questions. 

 

One of my friend did a clinical elective at McGill in GIM. He overworked as a clerk with minimal supervision. He didn't appreciate the fact that a lot of teachings were cancelled last minute, since the preceptors were too busy with research and had some last minute plans. After his clinical elective, he decided to rank UofT over McGill for IM For the better quality of teaching and for the organization of the residency program. 

 

Nevertheless, McGill is a great medical student, with strong and outstanding innovation in medical research. I doubt that it will hurt its international ranking in the near future. If the faculty could some time and effort to address some issues brought up, it would be truly beneficial to the medical students and to the future residents. It is for a good cause! (IMO)

[B3.572A]

I agree with many other posters here; even issues in administrative nature can reflect serious problems under the surface. With accreditation standards publicly available, and the extreme importance of keeping accreditation, the cited recurrent non-compliance means either a culture of not taking the accreditation process (hence the education quality) seriously, or the inability of the leadership to mobilize resources to achieve even seemingly simple goals.

 

And, criticizing the slow grade turnaround should not be something to laugh about. Imagine how students will feel in such situations, especially for those who are on the margin of pass. What happened to the communication channel between the student body and the faculty? Being a decent program really boils down to such small but important details.

[older]

Eight years between assessment by regulatory bodies seems to be quite a long time. Unless there is an internal system to assess compliance withe the publicly available standards in more frequent intervals, the cracks get bigger and bigger - hence the probation.  The regulatory bodies would not be so quick with probation if they found evidence that the problems have been already discovered and are being addressed. Obviously McGill Med program has been lacking internal controls for at least few years. The Dean should resign.

 

Contrary to  common opinions, med schools with strong and outstanding innovation in medical research are not necessary the best in teaching - the effort goes to research with teaching suffering. Rankings not necessarily show that.

[snacks]

"Provision of final grades in the family medicine, pediatrics, obstetrics and gynaecology,

general surgery, and surgical subspecialty clerkship rotations at one or both campuses (Montreal
and Gatineau) is beyond six weeks. This is a recurrent issue."

 

Classic McGill...

[GrouchoMarx]

probation is no big deal. the mcgill name is enough to carry a student to the upper echelons of american academic medicine. its up there with harvard.

 

it is true that a very good surrogate marker for a department's or program's quality is the quality of their administrative staff.