In Need Of Some Advice (Considering International And Domestic).

[sunday]

Hey guys,

I've been applying to med for the last 5 years with little success. Last year was the closest I've gotten with being waitlisted in Sask. I've applied to many US schools with no interview requests despite a decent GPA of 3.72, an MCAT of 37R, and glowing reviews from professors/department heads that I knew very well. I'm currently finishing up my thesis based masters following an very relevant medical related (and imo rather difficult) honors degree and am now back at my parents while I figure things out.

 

One of my issues is extracurricular activities. I am planning on spending the year volunteering in a variety of places to compensate (I had 500ish hours at the hospital and have been on numerous executive teams during my undergraduate but nothing special).

 

I am being encouraged to take a look at universities in Australia and Europe but am worried of getting a job afterwards (Caribbean is not a consideration for me). I would not mind staying abroad afterwards but would also look at moving back to Canada or the US. I'm sure there are plenty of posts like this but I'm curious if anybody can provide advice or insight on any aspect of this. I do plan to apply to a few US schools again. My MCAT is now too old so I will have to rewrite it should I want to apply to Canadian schools.

Cheers.

[_ _]

This is probably the last thing you want to hear, but have you considered doing more undergrad courses? I'm not sure that ECs are you're first problem, but the 3.72 is likely keeping you out of most schools. How are you years distributed/did you always take a full courseload? 

[sunday]

Yeah the honors program required a full course load for every year. I was given a waiver for taking courses in my masters because I had taken all the relevant graduate level courses in my undergrad. It was a 4 year program so 40 courses.

 

I would most likely rather look at optometry or veterinary studies rather than do another undergrad degree (not as a stepping stone to med, as a potential career path).

[freewheeler]

US DO is your best bet if you want to just move on and not bother re-writing the MCAT or going through another cycle of Canadian applications, with the ultimate goal of practicing in North America. However, you should consider a re-write for the new MCAT and re-apply to Canadian schools as it's certainly still possible.

 

Of course after having applied for 5 cycles it is understandable that you are eager to move on.

 

I agree with sunnyy, in that its the GPA that is probably your greatest hindrance. I know for U of Calgary at least, they substitute one of your undergraduate years' GPA with your master's GPA instead. Perhaps take a closer look into how you can potentially bump up that GPA according to the various schools' admissions formulae.

 

EDIT: I see that you have since commented that you didn't take courses during your master's. I would just go the US DO route if I were you. Just my 2 cents, perhaps others can chime in with alternate ideas.

[sunday]

Thanks for the advice freewheeler, it was something I was aware of but haven't really considered. I will take another look at it.

[_ _]

Yeah the honors program required a full course load for every year. I was given a waiver for taking courses in my masters because I had taken all the relevant graduate level courses in my undergrad. It was a 4 year program so 40 courses.

 

I would most likely rather look at optometry or veterinary studies rather than do another undergrad degree (not as a stepping stone to med, as a potential career path).

I think that makes sense. Personally if I don't get in after a few tries I'm going into pharmacy  because while medicine would be great, I think we all could be happy in a variety of careers and that despite what many (especially younger) people here think, medicine is not a 'higher calling' and the only thing we can be happy in life doing. There's so many risks with US DO/overseas I think doing a different health profession is smart. 

Best of luck!

[sunday]

Thanks sunnyy, I do have a desire to move away from Canada at some point in my life, hence the willingness to consider international. I am basically going to gather as much info as I can, apply to everything (opt and vet included) and make a decision after. Best of luck to you too.

[JohnGrisham]

I think that makes sense. Personally if I don't get in after a few tries I'm going into pharmacy because while medicine would be great, I think we all could be happy in a variety of careers and that despite what many (especially younger) people here think, medicine is not a 'higher calling' and the only thing we can be happy in life doing. There's so many risks with US DO/overseas I think doing a different health profession is smart.

Best of luck!

USDO has no more real risks than USMD in doing residency in the US.

 

USDO is your best bet, I'd also reconcile with yourself why you have applied 5 times but not improved your non-academic profile, as you have said yourself that is lacking.

[JohnGrisham]

USDO 100%. But even then, you're going to at least hit bare minimums for non academics. Your stats otherwise are strong. Likely you'll have to retake your MCAT if its too old

[_ _]

USDO has no more real risks than USMD in doing residency in the US.

 

USDO is your best bet, I'd also reconcile with yourself why you have applied 5 times but not improved your non-academic profile, as you have said yourself that is lacking.

Except the fact that they're considered with IMGs in nearly every province? 

 

I'd consider that a risk....because sure, you can apply/hope for a US residency but you're basically accepting that you won't get a canadian residency by going DO. Not saying it's a terrible option, but the fact that you can't do a Canadian residency makes them far from equal and it's quite misleading to say there are no 'real' risks. Given the recent changes for statements of needs, the future is unpredictable and there is risk

[3change]

...

[Edict]

Depending on how badly you want to become a doctor, it is not completely out of the realm of reason to apply to the UK. I know that the Edinburgh accepts the MCAT. The reason I recommend UK schools is because they allow you to stay after graduation and there are no visa issues in the UK. After completing specialty training in the UK you could come back to Canada to work. Although, depending on your stage in life, going to the UK may mean settling down as well, which they allow for. 

 

Consider graduate entry medicine programs, you may have to write the UKCAT if you are serious about applying to multiple UK schools. It is not a very difficult test compared to the MCAT, it is something you will only need to spend a few weeks to a month studying for, just to familiarize yourself with it. 

[3change]

...

[freewheeler]

Depending on how badly you want to become a doctor, it is not completely out of the realm of reason to apply to the UK. I know that the Edinburgh accepts the MCAT. The reason I recommend UK schools is because they allow you to stay after graduation and there are no visa issues in the UK. After completing specialty training in the UK you could come back to Canada to work. Although, depending on your stage in life, going to the UK may mean settling down as well, which they allow for. 

 

Consider graduate entry medicine programs, you may have to write the UKCAT if you are serious about applying to multiple UK schools. It is not a very difficult test compared to the MCAT, it is something you will only need to spend a few weeks to a month studying for, just to familiarize yourself with it. 

 

I wasn't aware of that. Doesn't sound too bad of an option if that is the case. How feasible would it be to return to Canada to work after performing the requisite specialty training in the UK? I assume it would depend on speciality, perceived need by Health Canada, etc.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[sunday]

How did you get no invites at US allo schools? I am assuming you have some pubs, plus 500 hours of clinical volunteering and exec positions. I am really surprised. Did you get the reason for your rejections at US schools?

 

no idea. my professors were as surprised as i was. they also okayed my letter of intent and said it was strong and unique.

 

Depending on how badly you want to become a doctor, it is not completely out of the realm of reason to apply to the UK. I know that the Edinburgh accepts the MCAT. The reason I recommend UK schools is because they allow you to stay after graduation and there are no visa issues in the UK. After completing specialty training in the UK you could come back to Canada to work. Although, depending on your stage in life, going to the UK may mean settling down as well, which they allow for. 

 

Consider graduate entry medicine programs, you may have to write the UKCAT if you are serious about applying to multiple UK schools. It is not a very difficult test compared to the MCAT, it is something you will only need to spend a few weeks to a month studying for, just to familiarize yourself with it. 

 

i will give the UK a look. i am fully prepared to live there should i need to.

[JohnGrisham]

Except the fact that they're considered with IMGs in nearly every province?

 

I'd consider that a risk....because sure, you can apply/hope for a US residency but you're basically accepting that you won't get a canadian residency by going DO. Not saying it's a terrible option, but the fact that you can't do a Canadian residency makes them far from equal and it's quite misleading to say there are no 'real' risks. Given the recent changes for statements of needs, the future is unpredictable and there is risk

I specifically said for getting a US residency. But yes. You are correct with respect to CaRMS. But even then, a USMD isn't gauranteed a spot in CaRMS either. I should have been more clear

[JohnGrisham]

How did you get no invites at US allo schools? I am assuming you have some pubs, plus 500 hours of clinical volunteering and exec positions. I am really surprised. Did you get the reason for your rejections at US schools?

500hrs isn't actually a lot at all over the span of 5-6 years. Especially if its not very valuable hours etc. That's 2hrs a week for 5 years, for perspective

[Edict]

I wasn't aware of that. Doesn't sound too bad of an option if that is the case. How feasible would it be to return to Canada to work after performing the requisite specialty training in the UK? I assume it would depend on speciality, perceived need by Health Canada, etc.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

It would be a long way off so it would be really difficult to predict what sort of regulations you would need. From what I understand however, Canada recognizes British specialty training but you would likely have to write Canadian exams. http://bma.org.uk/developing-your-career/career-progression/working-abroad/canada

 

 

http://www.royalcollege.ca/portal/page/portal/rc/credentials/start/routes/international_medical_graduates

http://www.royalcollege.ca/portal/page/portal/rc/common/documents/credentials/jurisdictions_e.html 

 

It seems as if the royal college will approve of training done in the UK, however they will have to individually assess your training to see if they deem it equivalent to Canadian training. Most likely though, because UK specialty training is at or longer than Canadian residency training it will be approved. 

 

http://www.healthforceontario.ca/en/Home/Physicians/Training_%7C_Practising_Outside_Ontario/Licensing_and_Certification

 

For Ontario, it seems as if you can apply for a supervised practice restricted license for 3-4 years while you complete your exams.  

Plenty of Canadian faculty physicians were British, Australian or Irish trained. 

 

If you choose this route its going to be a long road. graduate entry programs are 4 years, Edinburgh doesn't have one so it is 5 years there (you may get an exemption though to do 4). Following that there is 2 foundation years which is a rotating internship, then specialty training which is 3-8 years depending on specialty. Unlike in Canada, there is still weeding out even at the specialty stage. 

[rupchatt]

Depending on how badly you want to become a doctor, it is not completely out of the realm of reason to apply to the UK. I know that the Edinburgh accepts the MCAT. The reason I recommend UK schools is because they allow you to stay after graduation and there are no visa issues in the UK. After completing specialty training in the UK you could come back to Canada to work. Although, depending on your stage in life, going to the UK may mean settling down as well, which they allow for. 

 

Consider graduate entry medicine programs, you may have to write the UKCAT if you are serious about applying to multiple UK schools. It is not a very difficult test compared to the MCAT, it is something you will only need to spend a few weeks to a month studying for, just to familiarize yourself with it. 

How can you just come back to Canada? I thought you have to write exams and stuff again (IMG) ? Pardon my little knowledge on this subject matter. 

[sunday]

500hrs isn't actually a lot at all over the span of 5-6 years. Especially if its not very valuable hours etc. That's 2hrs a week for 5 years, for perspective

 

I agree. Many applicants I've seen have thousands of hours. I do fully intend to continue volunteering there as much as possible over the next year (in addition to potentially 2 other positions elsewhere in other disciplines). Originally I had qualms with playing such transparent games like this but the system is what it is. I still refuse to pay to go on an abroad trip though. That money is better donated to the Red Cross.

 

 

It would be a long way off so it would be really difficult to predict what sort of regulations you would need. From what I understand however, Canada recognizes British specialty training but you would likely have to write Canadian exams. http://bma.org.uk/developing-your-career/career-progression/working-abroad/canada

 

 

http://www.royalcollege.ca/portal/page/portal/rc/credentials/start/routes/international_medical_graduates

http://www.royalcollege.ca/portal/page/portal/rc/common/documents/credentials/jurisdictions_e.html 

 

It seems as if the royal college will approve of training done in the UK, however they will have to individually assess your training to see if they deem it equivalent to Canadian training. Most likely though, because UK specialty training is at or longer than Canadian residency training it will be approved. 

 

http://www.healthforceontario.ca/en/Home/Physicians/Training_%7C_Practising_Outside_Ontario/Licensing_and_Certification

 

For Ontario, it seems as if you can apply for a supervised practice restricted license for 3-4 years while you complete your exams.  

Plenty of Canadian faculty physicians were British, Australian or Irish trained. 

 

If you choose this route its going to be a long road. graduate entry programs are 4 years, Edinburgh doesn't have one so it is 5 years there (you may get an exemption though to do 4). Following that there is 2 foundation years which is a rotating internship, then specialty training which is 3-8 years depending on specialty. Unlike in Canada, there is still weeding out even at the specialty stage. 

 

It appears more and more the UK is my best international bet. I do know someone over there that went the non-graduate route (out of high school). For international applications, securing a job afterwards is my top deciding factor. Thanks for the information, I will definitely give it a serious read.

[Edict]

How can you just come back to Canada? I thought you have to write exams and stuff again (IMG) ? Pardon my little knowledge on this subject matter. 

 

Well you'll have to probably write Canadian exams (MCCEE, MCCQE pt 1 and 2), but as long as they recognize your British specialty training, then you'll get a full license to practice after you pass your exams. Before then you might get a provisional license meaning you have to practice supervised. 

 

I know plenty of UK medical students and the majority have stayed on for their foundation years don't know any yet who've are at the next stage though. 

[JohnGrisham]

I agree. Many applicants I've seen have thousands of hours. I do fully intend to continue volunteering there as much as possible over the next year (in addition to potentially 2 other positions elsewhere in other disciplines). Originally I had qualms with playing such transparent games like this but the system is what it is. I still refuse to pay to go on an abroad trip though. That money is better donated to the Red Cross.

 

 

 

It appears more and more the UK is my best international bet. I do know someone over there that went the non-graduate route (out of high school). For international applications, securing a job afterwards is my top deciding factor. Thanks for the information, I will definitely give it a serious read.

Transparent games? There's nothing "gamey" about being more involved and having non-academic interests. Or having work experience/life experience in general.

 

Every medical school will want more than just grades. No one cares if you have a high average, if that's all you have. Getting high grades is easy if you only have that on your plate, but in the professional world you have to balance many different commitments at once- and still excel!

[rupchatt]

Well you'll have to probably write Canadian exams (MCCEE, MCCQE pt 1 and 2), but as long as they recognize your British specialty training, then you'll get a full license to practice after you pass your exams. Before then you might get a provisional license meaning you have to practice supervised. 

 

I know plenty of UK medical students and the majority have stayed on for their foundation years don't know any yet who've are at the next stage though. 

So they do not have to do residency when they are back to Canada? Whats the point of going to a school in Canada then

[JohnGrisham]

So they do not have to do residency when they are back to Canada? Whats the point of going to a school in Canada then

So people like you have something to complain about

[Edict]

So they do not have to do residency when they are back to Canada? Whats the point of going to a school in Canada then

 

Isn't it obvious?? It entails living abroad for 10+ years of your life, it entails taking risk, it entails spending a lot of money on school.