2016 Application: What Are My Chances?

[OwnerOfTheTARDIS]

Thanks for the opinion of less hours among more things rather than a lot of hours in one or two things. Interesting thing to consider.

 

But, do you actually think these other qualities you mention don't apply to running a high revenue business? Also, revenue is a measurement. It can tell a you how much work they've put into something, with a combination of how efficient they are, in most cases. If your business made 50k and mine made 500k we can draw some conclusions right. But anyways, if you actually think those qualities I bolded aren't present in an EC like this, I mean it just seems obvious to me that there's more leadership in this than there is in a student in X club who sells krispy kreme donuts for a few hours week to raise money for their one dance in a semester.

 

I understand what you guys are thinking though. A lawyer making 400k a year would not get extra points just for being a lawyer. I get that, but I did manage the business during 3 full time semesters as well, and I'd say it goes in high performance because the hours put in were so significant that I did it to the detriment of other ECs and I did successfully achieve significant results with this EC. I don't really think it's debatable that doing this business while in full time school will mean something to the adcoms. I just wasn't sure how much of an effect it will have. The hours for the business are significant. But I think you guys are getting confused by the last couple years where I haven't done many courses while doing the business. I think that is a valid concern during that time and a good thing to consider.

 

Above all else. We can all agree that the more you take on and the more successful you are in everything you do while keeping a high GPA will be the best way to ensure good chances at any school.  I think hours per week are significant. If you can simultaneously perform well at all aspects of a med school application, then I think that you are on the right track.

In all my years on these forums and going to advising sessions, I have never seen any evidence that revenue means squat. Yes, it is a valuable experience based on leadership skills and hours put into it, but I think you will be disappointed if you think that high revenue is going to mean much to adcom. A person running a business that makes 50 grand a year can show the same leadership skills and put in the same hours and likely get a similar score. You asked for an opinion on your chances, my opinion is that this is a high value activity, but that you are overestimating its value and becoming defensive when people suggest that you diversify. The reality is that most successful applicants have 2 or 3 high value activities.

 

Finally, hours put in are recorded in their own box and are given consideration in the employment section. You will lose points if you insist on putting this as high performance because high performance only pertains to unpaid activities. 

[1994]

I feel like you might be overestimating the weight the admissions committee will put on this activity in particular. I don't mean to take anything away from your achievement (because it is absolutely something to be proud of), but there are certainly other activities that may be considered to be less prestigious by the average person that would be given the same score or better by the adcom.

 

Also I think you should take a step away from the whole "revenue" aspect of it all because frankly it makes you seem a bit pretentious. Your application is about you and not the monetary success of your business. Consider two people starting a business from scratch. Person A's business becomes very profitable but Person B's business, not so much. Is this because Person A has better "human qualities" than Person B? Not necessarily.

 

Consider applicants coming from other professions before entering medical school (lawyers for example). There is a wide range of salaries within this field but chances are they aren't citing their income on their application as a measuring stick for the qualities they displayed/gained as a part of their job.

[Torntoiletpaper]

Also I think you should take a step away from the whole "revenue" aspect of it all because frankly it makes you seem a bit pretentious. 

 

I agree with approaching it from a revenue aspect being pretentious. Such as when you said "If your business made 50k and mine made 500k we can draw some conclusions right." I'd be careful about approaching it this way because you don't want to rub it off the wrong way.

 

That being said, I don't want to detract from your achievement, it's very impressive that you make 500k in revenue. However, it is pretty black and white when they said that paid activities are placed in the employment section. I'm sure you can still show your relevant qualities in the description though, so I wouldn't worry to much. And to further assuage your concerns, it seems like they have a holistic marking scheme and those sections are merely guidelines. I'm sure they will take that into consideration. 

 

Also I'm curious. Why do you even want to be a doctor when you have a successful business going on?

[canucks_14]

Because medicine is the best job on the planet. It is my intention to aim for a specialized type of surgery. I love science it makes me all warm and fuzzy too. So the mixture of maybe doing research and seeing people to help them clinically is a very appealing combination to me. Also I would derive incredible amounts of satisfaction for becoming a surgeon. I honestly cannot think of a better job. All medicine is great though and would be far better than any job in business. There's cool stuff out there in the business world too, but I just don't see anything in that realm being better than anything in medicine. I just really don't see it that way.

 

Paperwork, emails, phone calls, meetings < people, medical science and procedures. In terms of personal fulfilment. There are important business jobs out there, but if you compare the importance of that with that of a physician, Not even close. The physician makes the business person look like an insignificant speck of dust in terms of importance. And if you derive happiness from importance then you will get a lot of personal fulfilment from that. Anyone who's almost died knows how important a physician is.

 

I also don't want a job based on money alone. I want a job with responsibility, like tremendous responsibility. If you have a pituitary tumour that is extremely fibrous/hard to operate on, guess what, none of the allied health professionals matter anymore, the consultant that helped your business succeed doesn't matter anymore either because having inordinate amounts of money doesn't mean anything if you're dead. The only person that matters at that point is one of the few most skilled pituitary neurosurgeons on the continent who can actually operate on such a difficult presentation. I was raised by my grandfather who is a WW2 vet and call it duty or selflessness, or even just bravado, but I want to save a person's life. Nothing is more intoxicating to me than that. The fact that I could go to school and make this my trade? Forget about it, it's over. The search is done, this is what I want. That is me and my opinion and that's who I am. I want to provide tremendous importance in people's lives. once again, can't think of a better job than this, aside from maybe POTUS. I don't know why surgery isn't as popular in Canada compared to the US, but i guess I just share the American viewpoint on this one. The tremendous feeling of purpose is what I'm in love with.

[RicardoKaká]

So you really want medicine, then go out there and work for it. In your situation that may mean more school, writing the mcat and sacrificing time to boost your ECs - if medicine is truly what you want then face the reality of what you have to do to get there and go do it.

[1994]

1. Paperwork, emails, phone calls, meetings < people, medical science and procedures. In terms of personal fulfilment. There are important business jobs out there, but if you compare the importance of that with that of a physician, Not even close. The physician makes the business person look like an insignificant speck of dust in terms of importance.

 

...

2. If you have a pituitary tumour that is extremely fibrous/hard to operate on, guess what, none of the allied health professionals matter anymore, the consultant that helped your business succeed doesn't matter anymore either because having inordinate amounts of money doesn't mean anything if you're dead. The only person that matters at that point is one of the few most skilled pituitary neurosurgeons on the continent who can actually operate on such a difficult presentation.

 

1. Physicians also dedicate a significant amount of time to paperwork, emails, phone calls and meetings. You also go on to say you'd consider POTUS, which has even more than that. You have obviously put medicine/physicians on a pedestal but should you interview, I would be very careful about saying they are more important than other members of society.

 

2. The bolded is what bothers me. Give your head a shake if you think allied health professionals have no involvement pre/post op after you single handedly save your patient with that extremely fibrous/hard to operate on pituitary tumour. Wanting to be the person who is able to directly resolve that situation is admirable, but not all cases turn out to be happy endings and even the most skilled surgeons need to acknowledge their limitations. Such a god complex will get people killed.

 

You seem very passionate about medicine which is good, but certain things you say will 100% rub people the wrong way and I would be very wary of that in your application.

[canucks_14]

You're missing the points here. 1) Some fields like law and Wall Street work 100 hours a week and guess how much of it is administration? 100%. The nature of a doc is obviously not 100 percent administration. 2) You misinterpreted the point I was trying to make. Being on the team is awesome, but I would rather be the quarterback or captain of the team. I was trying to answer a question that hadn't been asked which is, why don't I go for one of the allied professions, which is often suggested on these forums. I'm also well aware of the common sense points you're making of poor outcomes and knowing when to operate. I didn't mean to put the wrong picture in your mind but I just think I would derive satisfaction from helping people. Someone asked me why I want this and I just gave a description that can be summed up as I want to help people in a profound way.

 

re passion. Thanks. It feels like I'm quite passionate about it and I'm so happy I could go to university to even try to get accepted.

[BernieMac]

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[canucks_14]

Wow. I'm offended. I don't see the point in engaging anymore. I don't know if any of you have had much experience with medicine but the doctors I've met are incredible people with far more noble intentions. Not sure why I'm getting lumped in with Hollywood stereotypes. If only you actually knew me. It's a little comical but I found that to be a very unnecessary and offensive comment.

 

Assumptions are great when you're right but not so much when you're wrong.

[NutritionRunner]

Wow. I'm offended. I don't see the point in engaging anymore. I don't know if any of you have had much experience with medicine but the doctors I've met are incredible people with far more noble intentions. Not sure why I'm getting lumped in with Hollywood stereotypes. If only you actually knew me. It's a little comical but I found that to be a very unnecessary and offensive comment.

Assumptions are great when you're right but not so much when you're wrong.

Well, you essentially said that allied health doesn't matter. Sorry, as a member of an allied health profession, the most skilled surgeon in the world isn't going to be able to save someone if they aren't able to get adequate nutrition to support life. Even if someone is fed through TPN, you need a dietitian on the team to ensure they are getting proper nutrition. If the surgeon removes a tumour, but then the person dies from malnutrition, what was the point in surgery in the first place?

 

You seem very arrogant. That is something that will not endear you to your colleagues should you make it into medicine.

[canucks_14]

I didn't mean that literally I was trying to make a point. I indirectly know a person who had a situation like this happen to them, and that person was very grateful that one of the handful people in the country who could actually do it, did do it and removed the tumour. Fact is my friends friend would be dead if he didn't get the surgery by one of those five people who could do it. I'm not saying this makes up most cases either. I'm not saying everyone else does nothing either, I was trying to say that, in that specific moment, if he didn't get that surgery by one of those five people, he would be dead, is what I understand to be the case in this specific example. Probably a bad hyperbole statement for me to make over the internet about allied health where it might be easy to misinterpret but what I said was not actually a literal statement. I'm aware members of the team make a great difference, I know more so than most because I had a nurse save my life once.

Anyways thanks for the replies and appreciate people's concerns.

[hoomans]

I didn't read all the posts here but wow people are incredibly condescending.

 

Him using revenue is not a way to be "pretentious". It's a number, and is a quantifiable metric as much as a 95% average. Does telling people on this forum that you have a 95% seem pretentious? No, it's a way to get people to gauge your ass. Revenue of 500k/year is incredible and certainly not on the same level as revenue of 50k/year (come on guys, we're all smart people here. that's a whole damn magnitude!). And to be frank, certainly 500 hours dedicated to one activity means a lot more than me doing 100 hours of volunteering just to fill my resume. 

 

Now, to OP. UBC's way of assessing your extracurriculars is kind of algorithmic in that they do request information on many different categories of activities, and I suspect that's why you were told 500 hours of business means less than a 200+200+100 combo of other stuff. Whether this is true or not I have no clue, but whatever, just try.

 

Why not also UofT? Unless you have issues with geography (which, if you really are committed, you shouldn't be), UofT is just as good as UBC and they explicitly say they don't care what activity you've done as long as it's meaningful (you explain that to them)

 

I'll give you some perspective from myself. I'm OOP, and academically better in comparison (no offense ); ECs wise I ran a tech startup that is nowhere close to what you achieved, and I've since shut it down. Again, I remind others that his revenue is not to show off, but as a quantifiable metric to those of us who are not in the business (what else is he going to say? buzzwords? "synergy"? LOL). Otherwise I have a few years of research with no pubs, I have minimal clinical volunteering (like 50 hours), and some leadership. I've received invites to [removed]. Whether I actually get accepted or not is a whole other question (stressed af rn) but at least it seems my paper application has no glaring holes.

 

Just try. You have a unique experience I dare say no one else shitting on you here in this thread has, and we need business minded doctors. We need doctors who don't just solve problems on a patient to patient basis, but who also can identify larger problems in the overall healthcare system and have the hustle to solve those (I like to raise Dr. Joshua Liu of SeamlessMD Inc. as an excellent example). Just make sure you're doing this for the right reasons.

 

Also apply to the states. Your academics might be lacking for top schools but I see no reason why mid/high tiers won't take you. Good luck! Do well on the MCAT for the states.

 

(I used some strong wording and polarized opinions to make myself seem dramatic; don't hunt me plz)

[canucks_14]

Wow cool thanks so much for the info. Definitely no offense taken. Yeah geography doesn't matter for me. Gives me some hope that if I can get my academics closer to where you're at, then hopefully my application on paper can at least be in the same range as yours, and then hopefully looked at the same way.

 

Thanks again for your response! Congrats on all your interview invites and good luck in your remaining one(s), I'll be wishing you luck that you get that acceptance!

[TechToMD]

My thoughts:

1) To have a sense of your chances, you really do need an MCAT score. Just to throw in my case if it means anything, I applied in the 3rd year of my undergraduate with a 31 MCAT score (so 83rd percentile) and received zero interviews. I re-wrote it the following year receiving a cumulative 521 (99th percentile) and in my next application with virtually no changes in my EC's and GPA, I received 5 interviews, eventually being accepted at 2 schools. I'm not sure why this thread is full of conversation about your business and EC's in general when that discussion is trivial without an MCAT score in hand. Your MCAT matters so much more than EC's for Canadian applications in general (and even more so for US).

 

2) Your application need not be so tailored to UBC. Yes, you are IP there and that is a big advantage, but no school except McMaster in Ontario gives preference to IP applicants (barring UWO and NOSM regional policies which serve only a small portion of Ontarians) and even then McMaster's preference is very small (and McMaster has NO preference post-interviews). You should expand your focus to at least Ontario schools as well if you are actually serious about maximizing your chances. I'm not entirely sure how UBC views the MCAT, but in Ontario at least for the most part, the MCAT score is make or break. I think your focus should really not be on EC's at all until you have an MCAT score in hand. Your business as well as all your other EC's are trivial if you get a high score at many places (e.g. Western, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, McMaster). It's important to prioritize here - your EC's should not be the focus right now imo.

 

3) Speaking of EC's, I'll throw in my thoughts here as well. I truly believe that what you do for EC's does not matter at all. 90% of your EC score is how you present it. I would love to tell you that the fact you made $500k will greatly impress the evaluators and give you a huge advantage, but doing so would not paint the true picture and would be doing you a disservice. To be clear, it IS impressive that you are that successful in your business. I also manage my own business and it was an important piece of my application. However, I think you are slightly misguided as to how EC's are evaluated. It does NOT matter how "impressive" any of your entries are, what matters are the CanMEDS roles that you developed from them. Those can be developed from a 500k/yr successful business, or a 50k/yr successful business, or even a business that completely failed and went bankrupt. If we used revenue as a "metric" for scoring, then should we not award any points to someone who invested hours of their time and developed qualities such as leadership, teamwork, advocacy, etc. in a venture that ultimately failed? Of course not. Schools aren't looking for someone who is the best businessman, or the best athlete, or the best musician. They are looking for someone that in their eyes has the potential to best learn medicine. In order to learn and practice medicine, you must develop the CanMEDS roles. Do whatever activities you want and illustrate that you have developed those competencies in the description of your activities in your applications. At some point additional hours into the same activity has diminishing returns because you could be doing other things and developing other competencies that are equally important. As long as within the spectrum of your activities, you demonstrate sufficient development in all of those competencies, you will get a high score for your EC's.

 

4) Sorry to bring up the MCAT again, but really just write your MCAT and apply. I see from your thread that you were planning to apply last year but didn't. Had you applied, even if you didn't get in, you would have been given a NAQ score and would know where you stood and if you needed to change things. So at this point plan to write your MCAT and throw in an application such that worst case scenario you have a NAQ score to work with and have a more realistic picture of your chances.

 

5) I am going to assume you have money because of your business making 500k/yr and you taking home 200k/yr. If this is not a valid assumption, then you can ignore this piece of advice. Apply broadly to USMD and USDO schools. They are supposedly more holistic than Canadian schools and bad grades can be overcome by a high MCAT and strong EC's.

 

I hope that helps. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions or want more advice. 

[hoomans]

It does NOT matter how "impressive" any of your entries are, what matters are the CanMEDS roles that you developed from them

 

This is very, very true. LCotton's advice is more balanced than my post since I wrote mine in a fume mostly directed at the folks calling you out for having only the business as your most significant EC . It was also the one I placed the most importance on because it honestly did develop me as a person in a way no undergraduate education could have, but like LCotton said, I did not put the emphasis in my application on the awards/funding/recognition I received. I certainly mentioned them (again, as metrics!) but then the bulk of my essays and whatnot were the interpersonal skills, devotion to people, solving people's problems, etc. that I learned along the way. This is how you should be framing your experiences.

 

And yes, MCAT MCAT MCAT. If nothing else, writing the MCAT sets into motion your application cycle, and planning the proper timing for taking your MCAT can help you gauge which schools to apply to in the states and also get your applications in early. Most schools the states roll their invites throughout Sept-Feb so the earlier you get them in the more chances of getting an invite and accepted.

[canucks_14]

Cool thanks so much.

 

But I still disagree that real numbers don't matter. If there was me and a carbon copy of me, and we had the same activities and every detail was identical except that version A of me performed 10% better by some metric in every EC than version B of me, I would think that version A gets the edge. Once again every single aspect of the application is constant for both versions, except for the 10% increased performance. But I get the point people are trying to make.

 

Anyways thanks for the replies and all of the help and advice! I appreciate the help so much.

[TechToMD]

I think you missed the point. You can't just pick what you want and call it a metric.

 

Revenue from a business venture is a metric for business acumen.

 

Revenue from a business venture is not a metric for ability to learn medicine and thus I am telling you that no medical school in North America is going to care that your business made 500k/yr, they only care how you developed from the experience, and that is completely independent of the profit made.

 

But anyway, you can choose to believe what you want.                                                                                                                                               

[canucks_14]

So in my example which version would you give the edge too?

[InstantRamen]

No one really knows. Do what you believe is best. I'm sure if every aspect of the application is the same and you made more money, I'm sure it would help. But I think there are other qualities that can be put in place of this to earn points too. I really doubt that one is better. I really doubt any applicant is ever put in a position where their scores don't differ at all. There are way too many variables that are taken into consideration to have the exact same score as Skmeone. That probably will never happen. Do as you please.

[Torntoiletpaper]

No one really knows. Do what you believe is best. I'm sure if every aspect of the application is the same and you made more money, I'm sure it would help. But I think there are other qualities that can be put in place of this to earn points too. I really doubt that one is better. I really doubt any applicant is ever put in a position where their scores don't differ at all. There are way too many variables that are taken into consideration to have the exact same score as Skmeone. That probably will never happen. Do as you please.

 

I'd like to second this. All of this information has just been (calculated) speculations. In OP's specific example, I would say that version A would get the edge as it has that 10% increased performance. However, consider the flip side, was the increased performance due to better skills (e.g. communication, reasoning, etc) or was it due to the right situation (meeting the right people, chance opportunities, access to resources etc).

 

I don't want to sound repetitive, but I believe that you've already been given really good advice about the CanMEDS roles. Focus on that rather than the revenue and you'll be golden. Although if I were you, I'd put the revenue as a fleet plug as a metric of success. "Led a high-yielding (500k revenue) company" or something like that.  

[TechToMD]

So in my example which version would you give the edge too?

 

Such hypotheticals aren't of any use because again, assessors are evaluating development of CanMEDS competencies, not revenue.

 

It would be like me saying these two applicants have literally the same application but one is jacked and one is scrawny. Therefore I'll make the inference that person A works harder and will be a better doctor because everything else in their application is the same. You can see how this type of thinking becomes quickly problematic.

 

Of course, the reality is that no two applicants will ever have the exact same application and if such a situation arose, I imagine that there would be a bigger role for the biases of the individual evaluator marking person A vs. the other evaluator marking person B resulting in whoever got a higher score.

 

 

I don't want to sound repetitive, but I believe that you've already been given really good advice about the CanMEDS roles. Focus on that rather than the revenue and you'll be golden. Although if I were you, I'd put the revenue as a fleet plug as a metric of success. "Led a high-yielding (500k revenue) company" or something like that.  

 

100% agree. Mention it but don't focus on it. I just want to re-iterate that my initial comment was that your activity is a very good one, but the point is to focus on the CanMEDS roles, not the revenue because the character development is what they want, not how much money you made.