Applying To US DO Med Schools - FAQs, Guidance & Canadian Friendly Schools

[ShootingStar]

http://www.osteopathic.ca/

 

near the bottom of the page

 

Haha I actually found the same page but missed the key sentence. Thanks!

[spoudaios]

Mashmetoo,

 

Do you know any Canadians that go through DO route and decided not to come back to Canada?

 

I wonder what the path will be in order to be a permanent resident of the US and eventually a citizen?

[Mashmetoo]

Mashmetoo,

 

Do you know any Canadians that go through DO route and decided not to come back to Canada?

 

I wonder what the path will be in order to be a permanent resident of the US and eventually a citizen?

 

Absolutely. In fact, there's 5-6 Canadian DOs in 3rd year at Western U right now. Only 1 of them made the efforts to come back to Canada (i.e., set up elective rotations, prepare for the MCCEE, write both the COMLEX/USMLEs). The rest don't plan to from what it looks like.

 

I've read about Canadian DOs who finished up their stuff in the mid 2000s, and either are, or have finished their ACGME residencies by now.

 

A few ways to settle in the US:

 

1) marry a citizen - get your green card that way

2) H1B work visa - you can transition into permanent residence status (and eventually citizenship eventually if you so desire)

3) invest 500,000 US dollars in America, and be able to hire full time 8 US employees - then you and your whole family are elegible for US permanent residence.

[spoudaios]

Thank you mashmetoo.

 

LOL, I am not a millionare and I don't think the investment option is the one to go if I decide to stay in the US.

 

So then, if my decision is to stay in the US:

a>. Obviously, I only need to write COMLEX. Do you still recommend USMLE as well? I am rather unclear about the residencies. If we are doing DO programs, why we want ACGME residency? The next question is what if we decide to just do the osteopathic residency? What's the drawback in that?

 

b>. The logical option would be to apply for work permit VISA like I did in Canada (i was an international student back then and had to apply Canadian work permit). Is this difficult to obtain? What's the job prospect as a DO there? What type of practice do DOs have at the US? I know that US health care is both public/private eventhough I am not too clear how this is conducted compared to Canada.

 

c>. Marrying a US citizen. Hmm... A good one...

 

Thank you!

[khalifaofkipling]

Thanks for the thread...very useful information.

 

I just wanted to know what the chances of getting the allopathic specialty of choice are? Is it true as US MD, you can choose at will? Does it boil down to USMLE score?

 

Also is it true that D.O's arent recognized outside North America, even if they do an allopathic residency?

[Mashmetoo]

Thank you mashmetoo.

 

LOL, I am not a millionare and I don't think the investment option is the one to go if I decide to stay in the US.

 

So then, if my decision is to stay in the US:

a>. Obviously, I only need to write COMLEX. Do you still recommend USMLE as well? I am rather unclear about the residencies. If we are doing DO programs, why we want ACGME residency? The next question is what if we decide to just do the osteopathic residency? What's the drawback in that?

 

The problem with only writing the COMLEX is 1) Canada does not accept AOA accredited residencies. 2) AOA residencies (the vast majority, I'd say 90-95% of them do NOT sponsor visas for international (Canadian) students like ACGME residencies) - so AOA residencies are practically out of reach for Canadians. A few of them do sponsor visas, and a Canadian will be able to get into those with only taking the COMLEX, but then again, you run into the problem of going to a residency that's not recognized by Canada, and you are basically stuck in the US - you CANNOT practice in Canada with AOA accredited residency training.

 

So the problem with only writing the COMLEX is that you'll get very limited choice of residencies, especially those that will sponsor you a visa. However, I have seen LARGE numbers of ACGME residencies in primary care (i.e., FM, IM) that are DO/IMG friendly, and will accept both the USMLE and COMLEX exams. So if you know that FM/ IM is for you, you can theoretically apply to these DO/IMG friendly residencies, and get your ACGME residency with visa sponsorship by only taking the COMLEX. It is possible, but I'd say it's very risky, and would strongly recommend taking both COMLEX and USMLE.

 

b>. The logical option would be to apply for work permit VISA like I did in Canada (i was an international student back then and had to apply Canadian work permit). Is this difficult to obtain? What's the job prospect as a DO there? What type of practice do DOs have at the US? I know that US health care is both public/private even though I am not too clear how this is conducted compared to Canada.

 

c>. Marrying a US citizen. Hmm... A good one...

 

Thank you!

 

Back to the visa issue. If you attend a US med school, you are under the F1 student visa. After that, you can get either the J1 and H1B visa to continue in residency. No other visas apply besides J1 or H1B for residency.

 

To be a DO is to be a doctor. Just as to be a MD is to be a doctor. As a doctor, it is generally expected that you are recession proof, and will find employment in good or bad economies. DOs work in all fields of medicine as MDs, and there's absolutely no problem finding work as a DO medical doc. The DO profession is quite strong in the US from what I have seen. Even though DOs only make up a small portion of the doctor workforce in the US, we have lots of support in congress, lots of lobbyists working towards our interests. Small and mighty is what I would describe Osteopathic medicine in the US.

[Mashmetoo]

Thanks for the thread...very useful information.

 

I just wanted to know what the chances of getting the allopathic specialty of choice are? Is it true as US MD, you can choose at will? Does it boil down to USMLE score?

 

Also is it true that D.O's arent recognized outside North America, even if they do an allopathic residency?

 

Many factors come into play. It all comes down to your citizenship, board scores, and type of specialty. For primary care - FM/IM/Peds, not hard at all for DOs. For more specialized fields, like derm, radiology, etc. IF you were a US citizen, it is arguably EASIER to get into a specialized AOA (DO) residency than the equivalent MD (ACGME) residency. This is because only DOs can apply to AOA residencies, making it "easier" to get to the specialized residencies with no MD competition. For ACGME specialized residencies, I'd argue that it is mostly USMLE score. Of course, there are always the odd free specialized residencies that only take MDs.

 

Your second question comes up a lot, and there's a LOT of confusion there, so thanks for asking it. With any medical degree, it is primarily meant to be recognized in its country of jurisdiction. However, it is absolutely FALSE that USDOs are not recognized outside of North America even with ACGME residency.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States

 

The current president of the AOA visited my school, and she talked about international practice rights. There are currently OVER 50 countries that recognize the DO degree. Granted, this is less than USMD recognition, but still, US trained DOs practice medicine all over the world. Also, there was a SDN thread about this topic as well, and what they ended up finding was that DOs have a slightly more number of country recognition than SGU. Take from it what you will, but DOs absolutely have international practice rights.

 

Check out the wiki link for maps and everything.

[helloworld1021]

Hi Mashmetoo:

 

Do you know if non-Canadian grads of DO schools can apply for CaRMS residency spots? Also, do you know of any DO grads who completed residency training in the US (ACGME/AOA combined) and then returned to Canada to practice? If so would you have any contact information...

 

thanks for all the info.

[thegame11]

Hi Mashmetoo:

 

Do you know if non-Canadian grads of DO schools can apply for CaRMS residency spots? I think you need to be a Canadian citizen/PR Also, do you know of any DO grads who completed residency training in the US (ACGME/AOA combined) and then returned to Canada to practice? If so would you have any contact information...

Look on the officers page of osteopathic.ca

thanks for all the info.

 

10chars...........

[Mashmetoo]

Hi Mashmetoo:

 

Do you know if non-Canadian grads of DO schools can apply for CaRMS residency spots? Also, do you know of any DO grads who completed residency training in the US (ACGME/AOA combined) and then returned to Canada to practice? If so would you have any contact information...

 

thanks for all the info.

 

1) By definition, only Canadian citizens or permanent residents can apply to CaRMs. So dual citizens could apply to CaRMs.

 

2) I personally do not know of these people. However, as thegame11 stated, there's a list of officers on the osteopathic.ca website, they all made it home to Canada after studying at Osteopathic med schools in the US. It is best to contact them regarding contact information for one of their members who has completed dual AOA/ACGME residency in the US.

[khalifaofkipling]

Many factors come into play. It all comes down to your citizenship, board scores, and type of specialty. For primary care - FM/IM/Peds, not hard at all for DOs. For more specialized fields, like derm, radiology, etc. IF you were a US citizen, it is arguably EASIER to get into a specialized AOA (DO) residency than the equivalent MD (ACGME) residency. This is because only DOs can apply to AOA residencies, making it "easier" to get to the specialized residencies with no MD competition. For ACGME specialized residencies, I'd argue that it is mostly USMLE score. Of course, there are always the odd free specialized residencies that only take MDs.

 

Your second question comes up a lot, and there's a LOT of confusion there, so thanks for asking it. With any medical degree, it is primarily meant to be recognized in its country of jurisdiction. However, it is absolutely FALSE that USDOs are not recognized outside of North America even with ACGME residency.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States

 

The current president of the AOA visited my school, and she talked about international practice rights. There are currently OVER 50 countries that recognize the DO degree. Granted, this is less than USMD recognition, but still, US trained DOs practice medicine all over the world. Also, there was a SDN thread about this topic as well, and what they ended up finding was that DOs have a slightly more number of country recognition than SGU. Take from it what you will, but DOs absolutely have international practice rights.

 

Check out the wiki link for maps and everything.

 

hmm because I have not had the exposure necessary to know what specialty is right for me, I would like to keep my options open. So if ACGME spec. does come down to USMLE score, would that not mean that carib. would be better for more spec. opportunities? I heard their curriculum is centered around the USMLE.

[Mashmetoo]

hmm because I have not had the exposure necessary to know what specialty is right for me, I would like to keep my options open. So if ACGME spec. does come down to USMLE score, would that not mean that carib. would be better for more spec. opportunities? I heard their curriculum is centered around the USMLE.

 

dude, did you not see the match rates posted on page 1??

if you go Caribbean or any international route for that matter, the problem is no longer JUST having high board scores. It becomes an issue of where you graduated, and all the inherent bias that comes at the program director's discretion. Search these forums, this comes up a lot.

[ShootingStar]

Submitted my app to 3 schools: Western, MSU, and New England.

 

Fingers crossed. Maybe I'll catch you on campus someday Mashmetoo

[adam17]

are there any stats on how many canadian citizens, who completed a DO degree in the US, are accepted into residencies in Canada?

[Mourning Cloak]

are there any stats on how many canadian citizens, who completed a DO degree in the US, are accepted into residencies in Canada?

 

No. CaRMS (the matching service for Canadian residencies) doesn't break things down like that.

 

Do the DO schools post their match lists like the allopathic ones do? That would be the best way to tell whether the school has ever had a student match in Canada.

 

Anecdotally, I'm a med student in Ontario and I've never heard of a DO resident here.

[Mashmetoo]

No. CaRMS (the matching service for Canadian residencies) doesn't break things down like that.

 

Do the DO schools post their match lists like the allopathic ones do? That would be the best way to tell whether the school has ever had a student match in Canada.

 

Anecdotally, I'm a med student in Ontario and I've never heard of a DO resident here.

 

I know about 2. Pathology at the University of Toronto 2008.

McMaster 2010 - residency unknown, but he/she's a graduate of TouroNYCOM.

[khalifaofkipling]

How similar are the comlex and usmles? Also would you have enough time to study for both and write them before rotations start or would you have to take some extra time off your typical schedule to study for the USMLE?

 

Im not sure I understand how this all works

[Mashmetoo]

How similar are the comlex and usmles? Also would you have enough time to study for both and write them before rotations start or would you have to take some extra time off your typical schedule to study for the USMLE?

 

Im not sure I understand how this all works

 

You'd have enough time to write both before rotations. Basically anyone who plans on writing both manage to pull it off. The content tested is basically the same, but the way the question stems are constructed are totally different. It really is 2 very different tests testing the same content. For instance, in the USMLE you would have to know which chromosome Duchenne muscular dystrophy affects, but not for the COMLEX.

[limoncello]

I have only started considering applying to DO school recently, but I do not have any experience shadowing a DO/MD, so does that mean that I won't be able to apply this cycle (since I can't get a reference letter from DO/MD)? Is there any way around it?

[Mashmetoo]

I have only started considering applying to DO school recently, but I do not have any experience shadowing a DO/MD, so does that mean that I won't be able to apply this cycle (since I can't get a reference letter from DO/MD)? Is there any way around it?

 

You can always try getting your family doctor to write you a letter (assuming they are some kind of MD. If he's a MBBS, you'd probably have to go through the whole thing of explaining to an American adcom on what a MBBS is). If you can't get a MD/DO letter, your application won't get looked at, most likely your secondary app will be stuck in limbo till your LORs are complete.

[limoncello]

Thanks Mashmetoo! My family physician is an MD (graduated from UofT) but he only knows me as his patient, he sees me only a few times a year so I don't think he will be able to write me a strong reference letter or attest to my character in any way...

[Addy K]

PM if you need a reference letter from a DO. I have a contact, who is really nice and will write you a reference letter after just shadowing him once. He practices 3 hours north of Toronto, so you can just go there and come back the same day if you live in the GTA.

[fluztom18]

"...the transcript states the following: "A course with a weight of 1.00 equals 6 semester hours." All courses that is listed on your transcript with a weight of 1 should be listed as 6 and all courses with a weight of .50 should be 3. Please correct all course credit hours to reflect this rule. If there are further questions, please feel free to contact me. Thank you."

 

I got this message from AACOMAS regarding my application. My school (University of Toronto) does not distinguish courses with a lab component from those that do not in terms of credit value. I entered half year courses with lab as 4 hours, and full year courses with lab as 8 reflecting this discrepancy...

 

Is anyone else having this issue?

[Mashmetoo]

"...the transcript states the following: "A course with a weight of 1.00 equals 6 semester hours." All courses that is listed on your transcript with a weight of 1 should be listed as 6 and all courses with a weight of .50 should be 3. Please correct all course credit hours to reflect this rule. If there are further questions, please feel free to contact me. Thank you."

 

I got this message from AACOMAS regarding my application. My school (University of Toronto) does not distinguish courses with a lab component from those that do not in terms of credit value. I entered half year courses with lab as 4 hours, and full year courses with lab as 8 reflecting this discrepancy...

 

Is anyone else having this issue?

 

For AACOM (or AAMC) application purposes, full credit courses (1.0 credit) with labs (e.g. BIO150Y1Y) are considered to have 8 semester hours. Full credit (1.0 credit) courses without lab are considered to have 6 hours (e.g. ANT203Y1Y). Half credit courses (0.5 credit) with lab are considered to have 4 credits (e.g. CHM138H1), while half credit (0.5 credit) courses without lab are considered to have 3 credits (e.g. CHM220H1). Basically, what this means is that UofT doesn't give you 2 extra semester hours for labs in the courses. And yes, half credit courses (with OR without lab) are only "worth" 3 semester hours, while full credit courses (with or without lab) are only worth 6 hours. BUT the AACOM knows this Canadian difference, so they will adjust accordingly (and if not, your school will know of this difference so your school's admission WILL adjust accordingly). On you AACOM application, you should write down the full name of the course followed by whether this course has a lab or not (e.g. BIO150Y1Y - Organisms in their environment (with lab)), vs. (ANT203Y1Y - Human Evolution (no lab)). I did this, and there was no problem.

 

You folks need to search/read the first page more:p

[fluztom18]

You folks need to search/read the first page more:p

 

By "they will adjust accordingly," do you mean that I should enter all my half- and full-year courses as 3 and 6 hours, respectively, without having to worry about them assuming that I don't meet their science pre-requisites?

 

Thank you for the quick reply btw