Applying To US DO Med Schools - FAQs, Guidance & Canadian Friendly Schools

[prostatitis]

Would an interview in early December be considered late and jeopardize your chances?

[Mashmetoo]

Would an interview in early December be considered late and jeopardize your chances?

 

December is right on time. I had mine in March.

[Slashsev]

The fact that you have a coat with an "MD" on it does not grant you the title.

 

Just sayin...

 

god bless going to an easy undergrad in canada

[Mashmetoo]

god bless going to an easy undergrad in canada

 

Lol, and not being a resident of Ontario.

[AP_gooner]

There are, KCOM, PCOM, MSU, DMU, COMP comes in mind. BUT, one must not be picky about picking med schools in the US - both MD and DO. A lot of the "reputable" DO schools do not take in Canadians, and often times, it's still a luck of the draw.

 

Surely NSU is a higher-ranked one as well?

[AP_gooner]

Hey Mash

 

Wondering if you had similar issues. I received my secondaries now and some schools seem to have specific requirements ie. a commitee letter and a liberal arts letter...as far as i know, we don't have a commitee letter in canada and I haven't taken liberal arts courses since first year which is a long time ago ie. 8 years ago. I was wondering if you encountered some of the same issues and how you were able to satifsy the diff requirements. I have letters from a MD, 2 science profs, and 2 PHD superviosrs and rest from volunteer places.

 

I'm assuming you're talking about Nova Southeastern. For the liberal arts, they are quite lenient- I used a letter from a prof who taught me a business course and everything worked fine! GL.

[Mashmetoo]

Hey Mash

 

Wondering if you had similar issues. I received my secondaries now and some schools seem to have specific requirements ie. a commitee letter and a liberal arts letter...as far as i know, we don't have a commitee letter in canada and I haven't taken liberal arts courses since first year which is a long time ago ie. 8 years ago. I was wondering if you encountered some of the same issues and how you were able to satifsy the diff requirements. I have letters from a MD, 2 science profs, and 2 PHD superviosrs and rest from volunteer places.

 

 

I came across similar problems, I dealt with it by not applying to those schools. The DO schools don't really care for committee letters, that wasn't a particular problem for me. It's usually the MD schools that ask for committee letters. I got a liberal arts letter, so that wasn't a problem for me.

[limoncello]

Hi Mash, I was wondering if you could give me some advice. I received an email from WesternU asking me to provide official documentations to verify that my organic, inorganic and physics courses included both lab and lecture components (Since these courses are coming from Canada). The lab component is not specified on my transcript. So what kind of official documentations can I provide? Have you had the same issue when you applied? Thanks!

[Mashmetoo]

Hi Mash, I was wondering if you could give me some advice. I received an email from WesternU asking me to provide official documentations to verify that my organic, inorganic and physics courses included both lab and lecture components (Since these courses are coming from Canada). The lab component is not specified on my transcript. So what kind of official documentations can I provide? Have you had the same issue when you applied? Thanks!

 

mmhmm.. I've never had that before. As others have mentioned on SDN, get the course syllabus and the course description... Normally your transcript will give the credit hours, and they can convert it to the US system. I indicated which courses had labs and which did not on my courses in the initial primary application, so never had this problem.

[limoncello]

Thanks !

[kamsid10]

Hey guys, just looking at westerns admissions requirements and just have couple of question

 

for the biological sciences prerequisite I have taken 2, 3 credit bio courses with no lab component but have taken a separate bio lab worth 2 credits can this fulfill the prereq?

 

2nd for the chem requirement what exactly does it mean by inorganic- anything that isn't organic or specifically inorganic chemistry

 

i'm a bit confused as these are the courses I've taken

4 credits- physical and organic chemistry (with lab)

3 credits- organic chem

1 credit- organic chem lab

4 credits- structural chemistry (with lab)

3 credits- physical chemistry

as well i dont know if it counts I plan on taking 6 credits of biochem (no lab)

 

Do i need more chem credits?

 

and last how good are the chances for someone trying to get back to BC once finished?

[Kyleh]

Inorganic chemistry is usually just first year chemistry.

[starlight101]

hey guys. since this is the DO thread, can canadian schools actually see which DO schools we applied to/got accepted to...?? a comment on some old thread made me curious about this question...

 

i made a separate thread of this question, but just noticed this thread.

[lau2218]

Hi guys,

 

I got accepted to both MSUCOM and Western COMP and it is very difficult to decide which one to go to because I like both schools a lot.

 

These are the pros/cons about MSUCOM and Western COMP that I have been considering (which can be wrong, so please correct me if I am wrong):

 

MSUCOM Pros:

- Consistently ranked as one of the highest among osteopathic and allopathic medical schools for primary care

- Have a statewide campus system that allows students to gain a variety of experience

- Behind Pennsylvania (and maybe 1 other state), Michigan has the most osteopathic residency spots, so it is VERY likely that one will get matched on the first round.

- Michigan also has many more dually accredited (AOA/ACGME) residency programs compared to California

 

MSUCOM Cons:

- REALLY DARN EXPENSIVE (tuition is $78,000 USD before any scholarships), Canadians receive a $20,000 USD scholarship, but if I do poorly on one course, the scholarship is gone

- Michigan is really cold

 

Western COMP Pros:

- Performed the best in COMLEX part2 (although almost everyone passes the Comlex part2 on first try)

- The staff are very nice and I sense from my interview that there is a family atmosphere among professors and students

- Very new facilities

- Great weather

- Roughly $47,000 USD tuition, not many scholarships for canadians tho

 

Western COMP Cons:

- Campus is safe, but the surrounding area feels a little unsafe (need someone to confirm this since I was only there for 2 days) (also not sure if MSUCOM is that much safer since I have not visited it yet)

- Very little dually accredited residency programs in California

 

 

My goal is to come back to Canada to practice, so the main points I am considering is the tuition and the dually accredited residency programs.

 

It would be great if you guys could comment on which school you think is better. Comments from Mash would be great because you have been at WesternU for close to 2 years now.

 

Thanks guys

[Mashmetoo]

Hi guys,

 

I got accepted to both MSUCOM and Western COMP and it is very difficult to decide which one to go to because I like both schools a lot.

 

These are the pros/cons about MSUCOM and Western COMP that I have been considering (which can be wrong, so please correct me if I am wrong):

 

MSUCOM Pros:

- Consistently ranked as one of the highest among osteopathic and allopathic medical schools for primary care

- Have a statewide campus system that allows students to gain a variety of experience

- Behind Pennsylvania (and maybe 1 other state), Michigan has the most osteopathic residency spots, so it is VERY likely that one will get matched on the first round.

- Michigan also has many more dually accredited (AOA/ACGME) residency programs compared to California

 

MSUCOM Cons:

- REALLY DARN EXPENSIVE (tuition is $78,000 USD before any scholarships), Canadians receive a $20,000 USD scholarship, but if I do poorly on one course, the scholarship is gone

- Michigan is really cold

 

Western COMP Pros:

- Performed the best in COMLEX part2 (although almost everyone passes the Comlex part2 on first try)

- The staff are very nice and I sense from my interview that there is a family atmosphere among professors and students

- Very new facilities

- Great weather

- Roughly $47,000 USD tuition, not many scholarships for canadians tho

 

Western COMP Cons:

- Campus is safe, but the surrounding area feels a little unsafe (need someone to confirm this since I was only there for 2 days) (also not sure if MSUCOM is that much safer since I have not visited it yet)

- Very little dually accredited residency programs in California

 

 

My goal is to come back to Canada to practice, so the main points I am considering is the tuition and the dually accredited residency programs.

 

It would be great if you guys could comment on which school you think is better. Comments from Mash would be great because you have been at WesternU for close to 2 years now.

 

Thanks guys

 

It's all the same, the only difference is the type of weather you prefer. If you want to stay in the US afterwards, MSU is probably a better match as they probably have better Canadian support. If you want to return to Canada, either is fine.

 

The only real difference is where you prefer to spent your next 4 years.

[sethpark28]

congrats on everyone's acceptances!

 

I just had a pretty simple question about getting residencies as a DO grad without US citizenship or PR. this topic has been brought up before, but i'm still a bit confused...basically, so far it seems that AOA residencies are hard to come by because of visa issues, and very few people have matched into Carms

 

So it seems applying to ACGME residencies are the most feasible (for both returning to Canada or staying in US), but the acceptance rate of 70-75%, while higher than for IMG's, still means there's a 25-30% chance that we'll be unmatched and jobless.

 

what do we do if that happens? is there really a 25-30% chance that we're screwed? i mean, every route has its own risks, but 25-30 is a pretty large number..

 

 

 

 

(PS sorry if this has been answered already, i went through the entire thread but it is pretty long so i may have missed something)

[Mashmetoo]

congrats on everyone's acceptances!

 

I just had a pretty simple question about getting residencies as a DO grad without US citizenship or PR. this topic has been brought up before, but i'm still a bit confused...basically, so far it seems that AOA residencies are hard to come by because of visa issues, and very few people have matched into Carms

 

So it seems applying to ACGME residencies are the most feasible (for both returning to Canada or staying in US), but the acceptance rate of 70-75%, while higher than for IMG's, still means there's a 25-30% chance that we'll be unmatched and jobless.

 

what do we do if that happens? is there really a 25-30% chance that we're screwed? i mean, every route has its own risks, but 25-30 is a pretty large number..

 

 

 

 

(PS sorry if this has been answered already, i went through the entire thread but it is pretty long so i may have missed something)

 

A few points: 1) I wouldn't write off CaRMS so quickly. The main reason is that so few USDOs have applied. I know a source, Canadian, USDO, applied to CaRMs and got all sorts of amazing interview invites from med schools all over Ontario - still waiting on BC last I checked. But the point is, he got all these Canadian interview invites BEFORE any US invites. From the looks of this source's experiences, it really doesn't look that hard - it seems more like an issue of writing the MCCEE (at the present time**), and setting up an elective rotation in Canada. - Then you are basically golden

 

2) Keep in mind that this 70-75% match rate was meant for US citizens (so I'm assuming that most of those who didn't make the MD residency cut probably matched into an AOA residency).

- Of course, there is a legitimate concern here, basically this risk can be minimized by applying broadly and backing up with FM, IM (i.e., don't be gunning for that orthopedic surgery or dermatology that you just know you'll get into, and will only be happy with). Too many times I read pre-med posts of how they want "surgery, orthopedics" etc etc, and I only chuckle at their naivety.

 

Can you get a H1B sponsored MD FM residency somewhere in America as a DO? Most likely.

 

Can you get a H1B/J1 sponsored MD residency in derm, radiology, orthopedics as a Canadian DO? - probably not.

 

This brings me back to point 1). Basically US applicants have an advantage over Canadians in that they can apply to a bunch more programs vis a vis a Canadian due to the visa issues. SO, we can even out the playing field by applying to Canadian institutions - all 6 in ON, + 1 in BC to even it out. This even works for the more competitive residencies. I honestly think that there's probably a higher chance you'll get into a "competitive" residency as a USDO in Canada, than in the US (simply due to the visa issues).

 

Hope that helps.

[spoudaios]

Great post, Mash! This friend of yours must have rocked the MCCEE to be able to be invited to all of those residency places.

 

You will be my source when I come to Cali next summer. I've decided to do the ISAC at Western U. I still haven't looked for places yet though.

 

Alrightie,

Sp

[Mourning Cloak]

A few points: 1) I wouldn't write off CaRMS so quickly.

 

Just important to make sure everyone understands:

 

DOs may only apply to Ontario and BC in the CaRMS match (first round). The rest of the country doesn't accept DO applicants.

http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_prov_e.shtml

[Mashmetoo]

I like how Mourning Cloak makes a disclaimer about DO matching EVERYTIME I make a post related to DOs applying to CaRMs Lol...

[Mourning Cloak]

I like how Mourning Cloak makes a disclaimer about DO matching EVERYTIME I make a post related to DOs applying to CaRMs Lol...

 

I mention it because you never do: Being DO means you can apply to ~38% of the CaRMS positions to which an allopathic grad could apply.

 

I wonder if we asked this of the last three posters considering going DO (spoudaios, sethpark28 and lau2218), would they say they realized that they would be excluded from the majority of spots in Canada? And that those that they can apply to are arguably the most desirable and competitive in the country?

 

For the sake of people who are considering this pathway someone needs to temper your enthusiasm . . .

 

it seems more like an issue of writing the MCCEE (at the present time**), and setting up an elective rotation in Canada. - Then you are basically golden

 

. . . with reality.

[Mashmetoo]

Mourning cloak.. you seem like a nice gal, but there's some silly + outrageous accusations here. A few points:

 

I mention it because you never do: Being DO means you can apply to ~38% of the CaRMS positions to which an allopathic grad could apply.

 

You mention it because I never do? Excuse me? I wrote an entire section on the first page of this thread stating that as a USDO, you only get first match in BC/ ON, I reiterated this point constantly over the course of this thread.

 

Can Canadians only apply to Family Medicine through Carms or any specialty?

DOs get first round in BC (all residencies), 2nd round in Alberta (but have to be a resident of Alberta), 1st round in Ontario, all residencies! Most important, DOs get none of the dreaded ROS that applies to IMGs. Basically, it comes down to, would you prefer the "first" round in "two" Canadian provinces, OR would you prefer the 2nd round, or 1st IMG round (but VERY limited spaces) in all Canadian provinces? (IMHO, it's a toss up either way, and I would personally prefer the 1st round over any 2nd round since everything's basically gone by the end of the 1st round) ...

This being said, I'd take the 1st iteration as a DO in ON and BC over the 2nd iteration as an IMG any day, any time.

 

Matching in the first round only in BC/ON is what I consider "common/basic knowledge" for pre-med DO researchers. Now, for a CMG like you, you may find this fact to be novel, strange, and unexpected, and something you feel should be added to every post. I on the other hand find this fact to be mundane, and I give pre-meds researching USDO schools the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they know of this basic fact (if not from me, then from one of your dutiful disclaimer posts following one of my posts throughout this thread).

 

You don't add "Just important to make sure everyone understands:

Med school has 2 years of preclinical sciences, and 2 years of clinical exposure."

 

or

 

"Just important to make sure everyone understands:

+ is positive sign, hence 1 + 1 = 2"

 

It's assumed your audience know the basics.

 

Now, lets keep things in perspective. There's 17 Med schools in Canada, 7 (6 ON, 1 BC) allows for the first match. This gives 7/17 = 41.2%. Also, Alberta allows for 2nd IMG match for USDOs that's reserved only for residents of Alberta, and there's 40 spots.

 

For someone like you, a CMG, a 41% access may not seem like much - so the glass is half empty. For someone who had trouble making the Canadian MD cut, and looked into international options, a 41% access to the 1st iteration is a glass half full.

 

 

I wonder if we asked this of the last three posters considering going DO (spoudaios, sethpark28 and lau2218), would they say they realized that they would be excluded from the majority of spots in Canada? And that those that they can apply to are arguably the most desirable and competitive in the country?

 

That's mighty arrogant of you to assume that these 3 posters do not realize that they only have 41% access to 1st iteration in Canada. I've been communicating with spoudaios since his application from day 1, and he knows. lin2218 already got into 2 DO schools, I'm assuming he knows. sethpark28 said he read this entire thread, if that statement holds true, he must have read that section on page one where I said DOs had 1st match only in BC/ON.

As for desirability, you are talking about Ontario and BC, come on now. That's where the majority of Canada's population is located, of course it's desirable, don't be silly. Keep in mind, this isn't some IMG ROS deal where you have to work in some northern community for 5 years or else. You make a moot point.

 

For the sake of people who are considering this pathway someone needs to temper your enthusiasm . . .

 

 

 

. . . with reality.

As long as there are pessimistic "realists" like you posting here, there'll be optimistic enthusiasts like me countering your arguments.

 

I also like your personal signature -

For pussies there's a fallback. For everyone else, there's no Plan B. Go hard or go home*

You could be a big shot med student in your rotations or class, acing all the tests and "knowing" that you'll get your #1 gas. But I'll assume that you are fairly average like everyone else in the CMG population. Now, if you truly hold that view - having no backups, you have no authority to talk about being "realistic" to anyone.

[lau2218]

People who do the DO route don't really have a choice because I'm sure they would much rather do MD in Canada or go to an allopathic medical school in US.

 

I'm pretty sure most people thinking of the DO route knows they are shafted in many provinces. For me, I just want to be a doctor, I don't really care where. Even though there are ~30% residencies that we "can" match to, the actual chances getting a Canadian residency spot as a DO is likely much lower because they would still rather take a CMG than a Canadian DO. The main reason why I chose the DO path (instead of going to Australia or Ireland) is because of the AOA residencies that only DO graduates can match to (enough left over spaces so that hospitals would take time to fill those annoying H1B visas). This makes getting a residency spot much more likely than going oversees (point is beaten to DEATH by Mash). You also need to take things into perspective... although doing a DO degree doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be a family physician, people do tend to go into primary care after completing DO. So if you want to do family medicine like me, why not?

 

Mash does get really excited (over the top sometimes), but its something that he/she feels proud about and he/she should be. Mash has a lot of stones to take the DO route two years earlier when there is not as much exposure for Canadians(at least not to my knowledge at that time). Theres no point criticizing Mash on this, people should do there own due diligence and not be swayed by Mash's enthusiastic, and informative, thread.

[Mourning Cloak]

That's mighty arrogant of you to assume that these 3 posters do not realize that they only have 41% access to 1st iteration in Canada.

 

It's 38%.

 

You could be a big shot med student in your rotations or class, acing all the tests and "knowing" that you'll get your #1 gas. But I'll assume that you are fairly average like everyone else in the CMG population.

 

Admittedly, I'm a fairly average for a CMG. And yes, I will hit you with a brick from behind and claw my way over your bleeding corpse to get to my residency spot.

 

CaRMS is brutal, and so are we

[Mourning Cloak]

Even though there are ~30% residencies that we "can" match to, the actual chances getting a Canadian residency spot as a DO is likely much lower because they would still rather take a CMG than a Canadian DO. The main reason why I chose the DO path (instead of going to Australia or Ireland) is because of the AOA residencies that only DO graduates can match to (enough left over spaces so that hospitals would take time to fill those annoying H1B visas). This makes getting a residency spot much more likely than going oversees (point is beaten to DEATH by Mash). You also need to take things into perspective... although doing a DO degree doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be a family physician, people do tend to go into primary care after completing DO. So if you want to do family medicine like me, why not?

 

This is a very erudite summation of the advantages and disadvantages. I accept that lau2218 knows full well what s/he is doing, and wish him/her good luck.