The system is broken

[Henry415]

3 hours ago, zerochance said:

I read through the entire thread and nowhere did he come  across as a troll or disrespectful.

Actually, it is fascinating when people like you immediately try to dismiss another person's  opinion or point of view by immediately labelling them.  This is the world we're living in nowadays where if you dare have a different perspective or take on something then it is equated to being ignorant or trollish...immediately shutdown the conversation rather than engage and hear them out (this is actually your first post in this thread).  

Some people have actually PM'ed me expressing their support of my views and have said that they are not as controversial as would be indicated by the responses to my post. I would guess part of the reason they didn't reply directly is because of what you just said - being flamed for having an alternative viewpoint... I never intended to come across as kind or cordial in my original post because if I did, it wouldn't have reached nearly as many people. I just wanted to put out there that people are angry about the system. Take that however you like, that is all.

[zerochance]

2 hours ago, ytho said:

Kinda funny. You haven't posted in over a year, yet you decide to post on this thread. Post history shows you tried to apply to med ~3 years ago. You're the only person who says they weren't a troll or disrespectful (I mean, if someone calling all med students boring and soulless isn't disrespectful, I question your opinions of others).

Kinda mirroring OP's view that they are right, everyone else is wrong, refusing to accept all criticism.... unless of course... you are OP. But no, there's zerochance you'd be OP because you're not salty and you're too busy rolling in the software developer dough to post on your other account! 

I  was contemplating applying, but never applied.  And how active I have been on this forum is  irrelevant.  But believe whatever suits your narrative (I mean, you cared enough to click on my profile and scroll through my posts...)

[robclem21]

4 minutes ago, Henry415 said:

Some people have actually PM'ed me expressing their support of my views and have said that they are not as controversial as would be indicated by the responses to my post. 

Once again, failing to listen. Try to read carefully and understand.

Your post topic is NOT controversial. There is definitely bias and systemic issues with the medical school application process. Nobody here is disputing that point.

However, you continue to present a very inaccurate and flawed view of how applicants are truly assessed and fail to recognize that the reasons you list for candidates not being admitted are not in fact the true reasons why they may or may not get into medical school. How candidates activities and extracurriculars are viewed by admissions comittees are very different from the way you are portraying it.

Mainly, the issue everyone has is that you are not acknowledging this and continue to misunderstand and repeat the same thing over and over again.

[Henry415]

4 minutes ago, robclem21 said:

Once again, failing to listen. Try to read carefully and understand.

Your post topic is NOT controversial. There is definitely bias and systemic issues with the medical school application process. Nobody here is disputing that point.

However, you continue to present a very inaccurate and flawed view of how applicants are truly assessed and fail to recognize that the reasons you list for candidates not being admitted are not in fact the true reasons why they may or may not get into medical school. How candidates activities and extracurriculars are viewed by admissions comittees are very different from the way you are portraying it.

Mainly, the issue everyone has is that you are not acknowledging this and continue to misunderstand and repeat the same thing over and over again.

I've listened. I considered other people's opinions. But I still think any medical school admissions system that values cooking skills or video games as extracurriculars is deeply flawed, and there's no way you can convince me otherwise.

 

[Henry415]

4 hours ago, robclem21 said:

I think everyone should stop feeding this guy. Obviously a troll.

Not willing to listen to anyone and just being generally disrespectful with responses.

Let him enjoy his fulfilling life as a software engineer and be happy that he is not one of your colleagues you need to consult in the middle of the night.

If I were truly a troll, then why would there be people who are respected members of these forums coming out in support of me via PM? Furthermore, if I were truly a troll, why are YOU still spending time reply to me? Surely, people on this forum are smart enough to determine for themselves who is and isn't a troll.

[zerochance]

9 minutes ago, robclem21 said:

Once again, failing to listen. Try to read carefully and understand.

Your post topic is NOT controversial. There is definitely bias and systemic issues with the medical school application process. Nobody here is disputing that point.

However, you continue to present a very inaccurate and flawed view of how applicants are truly assessed and fail to recognize that the reasons you list for candidates not being admitted are not in fact the true reasons why they may or may not get into medical school. How candidates activities and extracurriculars are viewed by admissions comittees are very different from the way you are portraying it.

Mainly, the issue everyone has is that you are not acknowledging this and continue to misunderstand and repeat the same thing over and over again.

Don't you think your view is  potentially biased?  That you could  be the one with the 'inaccurate and flawed view'?  I mean, I have had a look at your signature.  I think if I was someone who applied 15x and spent many years applying and finally got in I wouldn't feel too happy if someone else tells me the admission process is flawed and good candidates are getting turned away, etc.  Understandably, I could be defensive about it and maybe even resort to outright dismissing such claims as trolllish behaviour.

[robclem21]

10 minutes ago, Henry415 said:

I've listened. I considered other people's opinions. But I still think any medical school admissions system that values cooking skills or video games as extracurriculars is deeply flawed, and there's no way you can convince me otherwise.

 

again missing the point...

im done with this lol

[robclem21]

4 minutes ago, zerochance said:

Don't you think your view is  potentially biased?  That you could  be the one with the 'inaccurate and flawed view'?  I mean, I have had a look at your signature.  I think if I was someone who applied 15x and spent many years applying and finally got in I wouldn't feel too happy if someone else tells me the admission process is flawed and good candidates are getting turned away, etc.  Understandably, I could be defensive about it and maybe even resort to outright dismissing such claims as trolllish behaviour.

As someone who has been on both sides of the system, an applicant, and application reviewer, and interviewer for many years, i do believe i have a better understanding of the system then someone on the outside who applied only once... That is reasonable. I do however, acknowledge that I do have bias when I review applicants and try my best to be cognizant of that throughout the process as much as possible. That doesn't mean my understanding of the process is bias though.

And you also lack listening skills. I never said the process wasn't flawed. Only that the way we assess candidates is not how OP is portraying it.

Obviously good candidates will always get turned away. there are 5000+ candidates for only a few hundred spots. Not every candidate can always be accepted and thats how it will always be for highly desirable programs and jobs. How many good applicants got turned away for OPs current software programming job. I bet many. Is that process also flawed, or not because he happened to be the one with the job?

[Bobthebuilder]

1 hour ago, Henry415 said:

Surely, people on this forum are smart enough to determine for themselves who is and isn't a troll.

That's why we stopped engaging with you any further.

[GH0ST]

I honestly don't think either sides need to be so riled up. 

I think another thing that often gets lost in the passionate arguments is that we don't have to agree but we can all have our opinions. I don't particularly agree with @Henry415 but that person can have that opinion every day of the week. A gentle reminder that we're trying to have a discussion for not our own benefits, but for the other readers as well. We don't necessarily need to win any arguments but we can let the people decide. 

I do think that @Henry415 you could convey your points re: things like cooking and gaming with some supporting evidence instead of preconceived prejudice and that would not only be more tactful but also help provide persuasion to your point. 

On a separate note, although I did not specifically put down gaming personally (I did run an e-sports team), I did play more professionally before for Starcraft, which is why I go by this username ever since the beginning (my previous teammates would have recognized me right away). To offer some perspective, I definitely learned a lot that I may not have learned through other conventional avenues in sports. I learned to tolerate as well as help people understand that gaming is not a solo activity and to become good you also need to work hard and learn different things. It's also important to recognize that for some people, they may not get the same opportunities to play sports (I didn't) and that you can still attain important skills gaming. Ultimately it's what you make of the experience. This is not to say all gamers are awesome (there's definitely bad ones and there's problems with gaming addiction as well), but it does seem biased to think that gaming is not an important EC that could be used in medical school admission as a selling point for the candidate. 

In any case let's try to keep things collegial. 

- G 

[unmatched2022]

On 4/12/2023 at 11:21 PM, frenchpress said:

All I can think reading this thread is that if the OP thinks med school admissions is unfair, they’ll really hate CaRMS. 

Could not agree more. On the other hand, I feel like if I thought about how unfair CaRMS was when I was starting the pre-med path... I probably would not have done this path.

[bukkakenator]

This thread honestly lost me when people were typing paragraphs, but honestly from the first few posts on here, OP sounds like a miserable loser. 

[When the Moon Forgot]

Medical school admissions is certainly not perfect and there are many, many ways we could improve the system.

I have sat on two MD admissions committees for the past 3 years. I come from a non-traditional background. As we are often informed by our life experiences, I have learned to value applicants who have overcome significant obstacles in their lives (need to work multiple part-time jobs to support self or family, leave of absence due to significant family illness, career-changers, immigrants who have to learn a new language just to name a few), thereby precluding them to a certain level from participating in those resume-boosting activities that the OP mentioned. We need committee members who evaluate applicants' ECs in context of their life stories. Who we choose to sit on the admissions committee matters, and that's a good place to bring about changes to the selection process.

That being said, some sort of clinical experience is a must if an applicant wants to be seriously considered. What counts a clinical experience? The definition I got back in college is "any experience where you are close enough to smell a patient." I need to know that an applicant is at least aware of and interested in what physicians do on a daily basis.

[jb24]

On 5/6/2023 at 3:06 AM, When the Moon Forgot said:

Medical school admissions is certainly not perfect and there are many, many ways we could improve the system.

I have sat on two MD admissions committees for the past 3 years. I come from a non-traditional background. As we are often informed by our life experiences, I have learned to value applicants who have overcome significant obstacles in their lives (need to work multiple part-time jobs to support self or family, leave of absence due to significant family illness, career-changers, immigrants who have to learn a new language just to name a few), thereby precluding them to a certain level from participating in those resume-boosting activities that the OP mentioned. We need committee members who evaluate applicants' ECs in context of their life stories. Who we choose to sit on the admissions committee matters, and that's a good place to bring about changes to the selection process.

That being said, some sort of clinical experience is a must if an applicant wants to be seriously considered. What counts a clinical experience? The definition I got back in college is "any experience where you are close enough to smell a patient." I need to know that an applicant is at least aware of and interested in what physicians do on a daily basis.

I come from a non-traditional background, non medical family and the amount of privileged rich private school kids in my medical school class was striking. I had to apply 4 times to get in, with each application more nonsense activities on top of working a full time job in a HCOL. Its so stupid. I genuinely think its set up so that privileged rich kids who went to private schools continue to succeed. Just my opinion though.

Fortunately for me, CaRMS was a lot better.