Biomedical Engineer - Multiple Issues

[devang1987]

Hello there, I just finished Biomedical Engineering 3rd year at UofT. Needless to say, interested in medicine.

 

I want to apply for 2008 entry but the issue is that I have not had that much of Extra curicular activities. My summers were kind of spent taking art sci courses. Managed to do part-time research in Math Department last summer. And this summer, researching full-time in Pharmaceutical Sciences on Breast Cancer. Also preparing for MCAT for August. I have NOT done volunteering in a hospital although I have applied and hopefully will be starting sometime this month. My GPA is 3.55 (with Uoft standard of 4.0 for 85+). I dont know the sciences GPA but it is definitely higher than 3.55 (Around 3.7).

 

My chances for getting in 2008 do not look so great to me as I know there are lots of people with higher GPAs and a lot of other experience applying as well.

 

I am planning to pursue a Masters in either Pharmacology or Pharmaceutical Sciences. I was wondering whether an MSc in either of these two would make me a non-traditional applicant anymore. I am also planning to boost up my ECs and GPA through MScs.

 

So what am I trying to ask? One confusion I have is that should I try applying to a lot of med schools in Canada and US for 2008 or should I just wait and do Masters and then apply. Obviously, I am going to apply to a few but am not sure whether I should goto the extreme of spending a lot of money in applications and applying to random schools. If the chances of getting in are narrow, there is no point in spending time for med school application which I could very well use for researching for and applying to Masters programs.

 

Thanks in advance.

[devang1987]

Concerning the GPA, I still have a chance of doing good in MCAT. Thus, the "numbers" portion is still in my hands. But not the other EC component, which further complicates the situation since I have no way of knowing how I do on MCAT until about October when I get the marks back, by which time the deadlines for most Unis are gone.

[cary_fan]

Hi there,

 

As an undergrad, you are subject to the GPA cutoffs that most schools will use to pre-screen applicants. Graduate students get a bit of a break, but not much, and not at all schools. Your science courses may or may not be counted in your GPA, depending on the school (some schools only calculate GPA based on courses taken during academic terms). Unfortunately, being from engsci (biomedical) won't add any extra points to your academic score - engineering courses are weighed the same as any other university course/major.

 

You said yourself that you do not have much in the way of extracurriculars. That in itself is not a show-stopper, but I hope you've had a chance to explore the profession a bit and decide if it's really for you. I don't really know what kinds of experiences you have had, but eventually you'll have to explain why you want to be in medicine - it helps to have some event or experience to talk about your decision.

 

I think there are plenty of graduate students who apply, so I'm not sure what you mean by non-traditional applicant. Graduate applicants typically have a small loophole in the application process, where it can do one of several things in Ontario:

• absolutely nothing for your application (Western)
  
• allow you to submit additional evidence of research productivity (Toronto, Ottawa)
  
• add some small points to your academic "score" (Toronto)
  
• give you a break on some of the GPA cutoffs (Queens, perhaps other schools as well)
  

(disclaimer: list is compiled from my limited experience with the application process and is by no means complete nor comprehensive)

 

Since you're still in undergrad, the earliest you could apply is this coming fall for 2008 admission. Your 4th year courses will not be a factor in this application cycle. MCAT aside, I think your current GPA is going to weigh you down in the short-term, so it might be wise to continue with your plan.

From what I've seen on this forum, many graduate applicants fall into the category of having less-than-stellar undergraduate GPAs (including myself), so you're definitely not alone. Take the time to make your sketch as well-rounded as possible.

 

Whatever you do, make sure you are doing something you enjoy - if that's working in industry, or pursuing additional academic opportunities, then by all means, go for it. You might get in the first year you apply, and you might not. You'll find plenty of examples in the non-traditional applicant forum of people who went back to school after working for several years, or who worked on improving their undergraduate GPAs with a second degree, so don't be discouraged if it doesn't work out the first time. There are still plenty of options and opportunities to apply.

 

Best of luck!

[devang1987]

Thanks a lot cary_fan. My interest, just like most people out there, would be to minimize the time taken in the studies and to finish as early as possible.

 

Apart from Canada, I was looking at stats of some unis in US, and I saw a lot of average 2006 class GPAs around 3.5-3.6. This gave me some hope although they take only a limited number of outside applicants. Also their average MCAT scores were in the range of 9s and 10s. Thus if I do well on MCAT, I might have some advantage.

[cary_fan]

From my understanding, you are absolutely correct. Do well on your MCATs and you can go from there. I didn't mean to discourage you from applying in Canada either, because I had very similar undergraduate stats and have managed to squeeze through. I'm a biomedical engineering graduate student (at UofT also!) so I did end up taking the longer path. In Canada, the GPA does seem to rule supreme with the MCAT used only as a cutoff filter, so you'll have to impress in every other respect to get past the GPA hurdle. In the states, the MCAT is weighed more heavily.

 

Perhaps other members of this forum can be of more assistance with the US school application process. Best of luck!

[Jwells]

One school you may want to consider is Memorial University. They are the only school I have seen who mention they consider the difficulty of courses taken.

 

http://www.med.mun.ca/admissions/pages/faq.htm

"Q10. Is preference given to any degree programme?

 

A. There is no preference given to any degree programme; however, the Admissions Committee does look at the grades, difficulty of the courses, the level of courses, and course load."

 

This may help you gain the edge you need but remember; OOP seats are limited and can raise the level of competition.

[drcave]

I believe Calgary does as well. I was admitted as an OOP applicant with a 3.74 GPA but I scored higher on my academic assessment than people with much higher GPA's. I never really took any bird courses except Psych 101 and Spanish 100, the rest were all Biolocgy, Biochem, Physics, Chemistry, and statistics.

[devang1987]

thanks cary_fan, Jwells and drcave....

 

It feels so nice to see there is at least one uni that looks at the program difficulty...

[NLengr]

It feels so nice to see there is at least one uni that looks at the program difficulty...

 

Although most universities do not list program/course difficulty as a consideration, my personal belief is it is at least considered at some point, whether officially or unofficially, and with or without a set process. It would be foolish not to.

[devang1987]

Although most universities do not list program/course difficulty as a consideration, my personal belief is it is at least considered at some point, whether officially or unofficially, and with or without a set process. It would be foolish not to.

 

Yes thats what I used to believe but after hearing it numerous times that all programs are same....I kind of gave up the belief.

[cary_fan]

I think that even unofficially, it only gets considered if you make it close enough to the cutoff for your file to be reviewed more closely. The convenience of a GPA/MCAT cutoff system is that you don't even look at the hundreds of applications that fall below them.

 

If a school advertises the use of cutoffs, I think it's unrealistic to expect an engineering degree to squeeze by unless it is absolutely a borderline case. If someone who actually has more insight into the process wouldn't mind weighing in on the matter, then we could dispel some of these myths.

[NLengr]

I think that even unofficially, it only gets considered if you make it close enough to the cutoff for your file to be reviewed more closely. The convenience of a GPA/MCAT cutoff system is that you don't even look at the hundreds of applications that fall below them.

 

I agree with this. GPA/MCAT cut offs are easy to do. It's a simple number. I wouldn't be surprised if a computer did it without human eyes seeing most files. Your degree/coursework here isn't important, all you need to do is exceed that number. Where I feel it would get looked at would be in the final selection stage (post interview) when they review each file closely. That would be a much more non numerical process.

 

My theory: Degree of difficulty of coursework doesn't matter for getting an interview. However, it may come into place when getting an offer of admission.

[wanttobedoc]

I think it also is dependent on which school you are applying to. Some schools are probably more stringent than others. Other factors would be OPA vs IPA

[devang1987]

I am not particularly interested in scholarly schools that have high minimum GPAs such as 3.7. Most unis I looked at have ridiculously low minimum GPAs to apply. Mac has 3.0 as I was reading it yesterday. Some don't say any particular number.

 

So I believe it is only a small number of unis such as UofT that use cutoff in a strict manner. Surprisingly, removing one credit per year and counting 4.0 for 85+ I am 3.72 just a tiny little above UofT's min GPA which I believe is 3.7 (a friend was telling me).

[Jochi1543]

Yeah, Mac has a minimum GPA of 3.0 to apply, but in the class of like 150 people, there was NO ONE below 3.5, and only two people between 3.5 and 3.59. I think literally half of their class had 3.9 or more. And since they don't consider the MCAT, a good MCAT score won't do anything for your app either.

[cary_fan]

Jochi1543 is right, with this crowd in particular - you know that meeting minimum requirements is never enough!

 

Another note - you should be using the OMSAS conversion scale for percentages and letter grades to GPA. UofT uses 85+ = 4.0, but OMSAS has 85-89 as 3.90. The conversion chart is here:

http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/pdf/c_omsas_b.pdf

 

To return to your original post:

I was wondering whether an MSc in either of these two would make me a non-traditional applicant anymore. I am also planning to boost up my ECs and GPA through MScs.

As far as I know, there isn't a "non-traditional applicant" bonus.

 

I think that you have the right idea, upgrading your ECs and pursuing additional academic opportunities will help alleviate some of the pressure on your GPA. If you are genuinely interested in the research component, then there's really nothing to lose by continuing to apply to Master's programs. But, I do recognize part of the dilemma you face, since you'll likely have to ask the same people for references both for medical school and the MSc (assuming that it does require references).

 

Don't sweat things that you can't change. Concentrate on the MCAT for now, and then see where that leads you. As someone who also came from engineering, I'm rooting for you!

[daryn]

I think somebody mentioned Calgary?

 

For OOPs, they have a preinterview formula to screen applicants. After weeding out many of them, they THEN select some to be interviewed.

 

That preinterview formula is based on your GPA, BS score, and your VR score. So, if you get great scores on the MCAT, you might be able to make it past that cut.

 

Also, like cary_fan said, from the OMSAS schools point of view, 85-89 is a 3.90. I believe Dalhousie also uses OMSAS.

 

Don't even believe that you can make it to the interviews with just a 3.00 at Mac. It's highly deceiving. (unless you cure AIDS and landed on Mars and wrote a damn good ABS).

[Jochi1543]

I think somebody mentioned Calgary?

 

For OOPs, they have a preinterview formula to screen applicants. After weeding out many of them, they THEN select some to be interviewed.

 

That preinterview formula is based on your GPA, BS score, and your VR score. So, if you get great scores on the MCAT, you might be able to make it past that cut.

 

Also, like cary_fan said, from the OMSAS schools point of view, 85-89 is a 3.90. I believe Dalhousie also uses OMSAS.

 

Yes, at U of C they look at your 2 best years for the GPA for OOPs. And yes, Dal also uses OMSAS. You need two full-time (30 credits) years above 3.7 for Dal as an OOP.

[polly]

Hi devang,

 

I did electrical engineering at UofT and applied this year to med. school and can relate. It's difficult to get a competitive GPA for med. in any program -- but engineering is special as it's already a professional degree, but offered in undergrad. so it is usually evaluated no differently than other non-prof. degrees by many admissions committees.

 

I was an elec. eng. for four years after u-grad, working in design, management and marketing before I quit last year to take the pre-reqs and apply.

 

The great news is that it's possible to get a competitve GPA -- and some schools take the difficulty of your degree into consideration. I got into Mac. this year first round/first application to med. school. My input would be to focus on your grades, MCAT, and then round out your application as much as possible so that your biomed. background sticks out. Perhaps working in a biomed. lab for a summer, or doing a master's in a related field will help. I don't know much about public health (epidemiology), and how that will help, but it comes down to how you can cohesively message your background to an admissions committee, at any school.

 

Good luck, your background will be great for medicine!!

 

------------------------------------------

McMaster Med. 2010

[NLengr]

Just to add to that. The story I got over and over from physicians I talked to was that if you did engineering (and didn't balls it up) the adcom isn't concerned about academic ability. They know that you should be able to survive medicine.

 

The biggest concern is that you aren't the stereotypical engineer who can't relate to anything but computers, machines and math. Therefore make sure you keep your EC's up (as much as you can given the amount of study time engineering takes) and do lots of stuff with public interaction. Basically show that you are in fact human.

[polly]

Yes, that's good advice. I heard a story about interviews where they probed an engineering student about her take on decision-making hierarchies on a medical team -- really to see how she viewed teamwork. For those who have lots of ECs or have worked on teams professionally (a little uncommon for an engineering u-grad. degree I found) this question should not be too difficult. I heard that the question was handled poorly -- with a bit of an autocratic perspective and not taking human factors into consideration.

 

Neways, EC's with teamwork and patient contact is the stuff to mix into your experience to increase your attractiveness to an adcom.

[NLengr]

I'm not sure why you would find it uncommon. Engineering is massive amounts of teamwork. You end up doing nearly every project throughout school as part of a team. On work terms everything is done as part of a team because most engineering projects are so large they require many engineers, technicians and other personnel to carry out.

 

Teamwork and leadership shouldn't be a problem at all for engineering students. Public contact and interaction with non engineering professionals is probably more of a concern.

[polly]

It just might have been my stream and school -- electrical engineering at UofT. I found that we had very few team requirements in the program -- all labs and both major design projects over the four years were only paired groups -- never teams larger than two, and almost all course work was assigned to be completed independently. Since they ranked us (like x/120th in class) on our transcripts, and handing in similar work was admonished, working together was discouraged to a large extent.

 

I only started working in larger teams in industry (that was a learning experience for many of us from UofT comp/elec. eng. I found), where teams were both large, and much more divided in terms of individual specialization - more like a medical team. Perhaps the work terms was where our experiences differed (UofT doesn't have them). It could be very different in different schools/programs I'm sure. My brother went to Waterloo for elec. eng. and felt differently about his program, but my friend went to queens and felt the same as me.

 

-----------

McMaster Med. 2010

[ploughboy]

Must be a school thing. When I did EE at UW we were also ranked in the class and told to hand in original work on our assignments. None the less, "cloning" assignments was common in the junior years, simply because there was no way to get through the required workload without at least some collaboration. In upper years we had a pile of group projects. And then there were co-op workterms...

 

Regardless, glad to see another engineer in medicine. Congrats!

 

pb

[ACHQ]

If you don't mind me asking polly and plough boy and any other engineering students that got into medicine, what your GPA's were? (could you also list what school you will be/are attending)