Num Apps for 2009

[cling]

you guys are joking, but it already exists... i cant remember exactly, but some euro country is doing just that. selecting individuals based on their marks, then randomly narrowing down that pool.

which is kinda funny actually.

 

in the UK they did that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/2956239.stm

 

Well, we need an article like that here in Canada. Although not as blatant as a random number generator, Mac is still mocking equal opportunity, but in a more concealed way. Just a matter of time before things happen.

[Alastriss]

Cling no worries, and yes i agree about mac's system.

 

Its just that a friend of mine used to be pessimistic for no reason, and it upsets me because he doesn't realize that meaningless pessimism is hurtful to those who are already struggling in a very tough process, so before we toss out "oh yeah cutoffs will go up for sure" we should be and take a closer look.

 

I feel it too, it's just been so bad personally. With this financial crisis even the US as a backup isn't looking good, and it just seems, like wherever I turn, there is bad news. I strongly believe that if you have a good feeling about anything in the application cycle then you are either

 

a) about to be hit with some bad news

you are unaware about something going awfully wrong

[Jochi1543]

Cling no worries, and yes i agree about mac's system.

 

Its just that a friend of mine used to be pessimistic for no reason, and it upsets me because he doesn't realize that meaningless pessimism is hurtful to those who are already struggling in a very tough process, so before we toss out "oh yeah cutoffs will go up for sure" we should be and take a closer look.

 

I feel it too, it's just been so bad personally. With this financial crisis even the US as a backup isn't looking good, and it just seems, like wherever I turn, there is bad news. I strongly believe that if you have a good feeling about anything in the application cycle then you are either

 

a) about to be hit with some bad news

you are unaware about something going awfully wrong

 

What are you doing this year, Alastriss? Are you in 4th year or have you graduated? I know it's random, I just realized I didn't know what you were up to.

[The Law]

Ask Again Later

 

Hahaha, that's just priceless.

[Guest soaring_eagle]

the torture we live with...

 

we all probably have an unclassified disorder

 

OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE NEED-TO-GET-INTO-MEDS DISORDER

 

SYMPTOMS:

- plan your life around getting into med school

- anxiety

- withdrawal from "normal" life

- group therapy with other neurotic individuals (such as on forums)

[Exia]

... this is so ridiculous. i think honestly it's such an arbitrary method of weeding out applicants. based PURELY on mcat scores/gpa, they'll cut like thousands of people? that's ridiculous. the mcat is ONE test. it's on the computer... honestly... does that mean the person working in a research lab the entire summer, getting results, publishing papers, and not having 5 kabillion hours to study for the mcat just gets cut like that? or the person who's perhaps not as used to typing on a keyboard b/c he didn't sit infront of one his entire life gets cut b/c he couldnt type fast enuf to make an amazing essay for the writing section. or the person who got sick on the day of the mcat, and just wasn't feeling like himself... or like me... who had the power shut down in the middle of the exam and kinda got a 40 minute lull, in the smack dab middle of the exam? or the person who loves a certain field of science, and decides to take a program that puts them in classes where they have to compete against PhD-students on the curve? seriously... we're human beings... it'd be nice if they could even take a LOOK at us before just applying these strict cut offs on us. i mean... it's not like becoming a doctor is our life long dreams or anything...

 

sighs... *calms down* finished venting for now

[Guest soaring_eagle]

i know how you feel

 

i get pissed off too

 

i had to re-write my mcat twice, both times working more than full time

 

one summer it was while doing research, i feel burnt out, really burnt out

 

it seems like we have to sell ourselves into slavery

[abcwxyz]

There are a limited number of spots and a large number of applicants.

 

They already interview 5:1 with rather basic cutoffs.

 

 

It wasn't obvious to you that you would need decent grades and to take time off from your lab to study for your MCAT to pursue your lifelong dreams?

[Exia]

i suppose, i don't know, i'm just frustrated that's all

[Alastriss]

... this is so ridiculous. i think honestly it's such an arbitrary method of weeding out applicants. based PURELY on mcat scores/gpa, they'll cut like thousands of people? that's ridiculous. the mcat is ONE test. it's on the computer... honestly... does that mean the person working in a research lab the entire summer, getting results, publishing papers, and not having 5 kabillion hours to study for the mcat just gets cut like that? or the person who's perhaps not as used to typing on a keyboard b/c he didn't sit infront of one his entire life gets cut b/c he couldnt type fast enuf to make an amazing essay for the writing section. or the person who got sick on the day of the mcat, and just wasn't feeling like himself... or like me... who had the power shut down in the middle of the exam and kinda got a 40 minute lull, in the smack dab middle of the exam? or the person who loves a certain field of science, and decides to take a program that puts them in classes where they have to compete against PhD-students on the curve? seriously... we're human beings... it'd be nice if they could even take a LOOK at us before just applying these strict cut offs on us. i mean... it's not like becoming a doctor is our life long dreams or anything...

 

sighs... *calms down* finished venting for now

 

 

It's funny, you described me almost

 

I had 19 days to prep for my MCAT because I was working like crazy in the lab and got 2 weeks off. I studied for the last 2 weeks of august and had until september 7th, which is when I wrote my mcat. I had a bad headache that night, I always get these one sided headaches to my right side (I dont know what they are but my mom does have a history of migraines) and I wasn't able to sleep until 5:30 AM. Woke up at 9 am to get to my exam but was feeling so queezy.

 

I ended up writing a great mcat, and it's not because I am bragging that I am smart, but because I knew this test was going to change everything and I don't think I ever in my academic life pushed for something like I did for my mcats.

 

I took a whole bunch of difficult courses in 1st and 2nd year, and I paid. Yet I took seminar courses intended for Biochem Grad students for interst and did well but I had to work hard - at the expense of preparing for my Queen's and UWO interview. No one is to blame for the consequences but us.

 

Now my turn to vent I keep thinking I could waste my life and rewrite the mcat to get higher than my 11 11 11 12 R and beat the competition that is just getting ridiculous, and I could keep doing special years because my 3.74 GPA this year will be even MORE obsolete next year than it is this year...

Or i can say eff this backwards country, go to the US, and really, really, start my life as opposed to running this stupid premed treadmill. It's not that I am losing my dedication to medicine, but it is that I am losing my dedicating to pursuing the dream of medicine in a country like canada with a ridiculous admission process.

 

But Exia, what I am getting at is at least Queen's and UWO are upfront about it. They know that there are actually too many qualified applicants to be allowed in. They realize that, so they just use arbitrary cutoffs. It's funny, when 1st and 2nd year premeds are like, oh its not about the marks, I just go "no..it realy is"

Your ECs REALLY matter after you got that interview, but not nearly as important as marks before the interview.

[Alastriss]

There are a limited number of spots and a large number of applicants.

 

They already interview 5:1 with rather basic cutoffs.

 

 

It wasn't obvious to you that you would need decent grades and to take time off from your lab to study for your MCAT to pursue your lifelong dreams?

 

It wasn't obvious to you the reasons why she made that decision (maybe she needed the money, maybe she wanted to experience research, maybe she was under a contract and couldn't leave, etc), so maybe you should consider communicating your message in a more diplomatic manner.

[OneDay]

There are a limited number of spots and a large number of applicants.

 

They already interview 5:1 with rather basic cutoffs.

 

 

It wasn't obvious to you that you would need decent grades and to take time off from your lab to study for your MCAT to pursue your lifelong dreams?

 

Thanks for the info about the lack of med school spts abcwxyz! Some of us unlucky folk to have to pay the bills ourselves, while going through school and/or working full time. It sure does suck having to work when we should be studying for classes/mcats, its not like we do it for fun. It is super annoying seeing something like that posted.

[Exia]

he* (no worries tho - Exia isn't a name, it's just some random thing from a tv show I watch-didnt want to put my name in here, or anything to give away my identity, kinda wary of posting on internet forums:P )

 

but yea, i'm just sorta venting at the general frustration of the process, i mean i did alright on the mcats (90th percentile overall.. but i might get rejected from interview b/c of writingsample/verbal). I have a decent gpa for application i suppose - i hope, i'm not sure about queen stats, i'm a first year app and oop. but yea, i know what you mean... tons of my friends just went straight into clases that they knew they could ace (the curves were easy), while I took classes where i had to work my frikin **s off to get A's/A+'s. i mean we all come from diverse backgrounds, that i think should be considered is all, i don't think i stand squat chance at getting in queen's anyways, at the end (OOP 3rd yr)... i'm just sorta (like alatriss) frustrated at this entire process. i mean i have to work two part time jobs over the school year so that I can pay off my tuition and everything... and I have continued with volunteering that I felt passionate about from high school, and so, I end up with less time to study, but I guess your right too, that in the end I have to accept the consequences for it all. *sighs*. lol, lets go to the Caribbean Medical schools alatriss!

[Alastriss]

he* (no worries tho - Exia isn't a name, it's just some random thing from a tv show I watch-didnt want to put my name in here, or anything to give away my identity, kinda wary of posting on internet forums:P )

 

but yea, i'm just sorta venting at the general frustration of the process, i mean i did alright on the mcats (90th percentile overall.. but i might get rejected from interview b/c of writingsample/verbal). I have a decent gpa for application i suppose - i hope, i'm not sure about queen stats, i'm a first year app and oop. but yea, i know what you mean... tons of my friends just went straight into clases that they knew they could ace (the curves were easy), while I took classes where i had to work my frikin **s off to get A's/A+'s. i mean we all come from diverse backgrounds, that i think should be considered is all, i don't think i stand squat chance at getting in queen's anyways, at the end (OOP 3rd yr)... i'm just sorta (like alatriss) frustrated at this entire process. i mean i have to work two part time jobs over the school year so that I can pay off my tuition and everything... and I have continued with volunteering that I felt passionate about from high school, and so, I end up with less time to study, but I guess your right too, that in the end I have to accept the consequences for it all. *sighs*. lol, lets go to the Caribbean Medical schools alatriss!

 

 

lol haha i can only understand your frustration. Fortunately i don't have to work and that is actually a pretty big advantage. No to Carrib! yes to US schools. Who knows, maybe things will pan out well this year. We gotta keep our hopes up.

[Exia]

lol haha i can only understand your frustration. Fortunately i don't have to work and that is actually a pretty big advantage. No to Carrib! yes to US schools. Who knows, maybe things will pan out well this year. We gotta keep our hopes up.

 

haha true true *knocks on wood and looks around me with a paranoid light in my eyes*

[jelly31]

There's nothing we can do but wait....

 

If you're concerned write your government rep, or the minister of health and long term care, or anyone that will listen and tell them your university average, MCAT mark, which is an american administered test, and your long list of EC's/personable traits that would make you a good doctor and mention you are semi-competitive in nearly every country in the world with this type of application and somehow can't seem to get an interview in Ontario.... tell them you will go U.S. or the Caribbean and never come back because they refuse to acknowledge your potential contribution to the medical system despite all the money you've poured into becoming competitive, schooling, and applying...

 

Or speculate Queen's new MCAT scores.... I'm going with 10's and 32 overall.... with either a Q or R haha!

 

More food for thought.... being a member of these forums I think our tendency is to believe everyone is as educated on the processes of OMSAS as we are. There are a lot of people that apply relatively blindly beyond reading info sheets.....

 

If you had no idea what Queen's MCAT cut-off was last year because you don't deduce from forum posts you would have gone to the Queen's website this year and saw for the first time in the last several years that Queen's had no cutoffs, but rather just required the MCAT with a statement that it's impossible to predict what cut-offs will be. You may not have known of Queen's processes in the past.... and now there is no indication on the website that even asked for 10's in the past. Hence, everybody and their cousins applied to Queens this year and the cut-offs may increase slightly, not at all, or drop even.

 

Just a thought..... I know I've gone overboard learning every admission detail that's available but that I'm also a jumbo keener and now that Queen's is not revealing everything, a lot of people likely applied with any MCAT score as it was as simple as tagging a few more dollars to your application.

 

 

So there are several ideas I have... lol potentially all wrong.

 

 

I agree. I know that I applied quite blindly last year without checking cut-offs.

 

But anyways, I wouldn't be surprised if many of you get an acceptance somewhere this year.

[anonymity]

Hrmmm.... according to AAMC, in 2007, some 70,000 students took the MCAT.

 

I wonder how many Canadians take the MCAT on average per year.

[kaymcee]

You bring up some interesting points, Exia:

i mean i did alright on the mcats (90th percentile overall.. but i might get rejected from interview b/c of writingsample/verbal)

You need to separate populations: MCAT writers, medical school interviewees, and medical school matriculants. Lots of people write the MCAT; being in the 90th percentile of that group might sound good, but that's probably average when compared to those who interview or those who are in medicine.

tons of my friends just went straight into clases that they knew they could ace (the curves were easy), while I took classes where i had to work my frikin **s off to get A's/A+'s

To be frank, it sounds like self-sabotage.

we all come from diverse backgrounds, that i think should be considered is all

This is the most interesting point you bring up. Queen's doesn't do any of this pre-interview. UBC, on the other end of the scale, does exactly this pre-interview. At Queen's, it's simple: get the numbers, get the interview. At UBC, it's far less transparent. For those of you who have applied unsuccessfully there (myself included), you're witness to the esoteric descriptors they use to judge someone's non-academic qualifications. Further, these same non-concrete evaluations follow you throughout the application process. At Queen's, all the soft stuff is in the panel interview, where it's inescapable. So my question to you, Exia, is how do you evaluate these "diverse backgrounds" of 3000 applicants?

 

I know you're frustrated, and it's far easier for me to comment on the other side, but sometimes you just have to jump through the exact hoops the admissions committees want you to.

[Jochi1543]

So my question to you, Exia, is how do you evaluate these "diverse backgrounds" of 3000 applicants?

 

For obvious reasons, I was vague last year in saying my interview went badly, but lemme come forward a bit and admit that it was basically suggested to me that I am not qualified because of a non-science background. I don't wanna go into the details of the things I was told/asked, again, for obvious reasons, but let me say that it left me with a very bad impression of the school. I had a very good impression of it after our Friday mingle, but the interviewers' behaviour made sure Queen's will be the school I'd least want to attend if I'm ever accepted there in the future and have another option. I don't care what they say in their PR releases about how they want diverse applicants, their interview panel made it clear to me that they don't. So really, all of that is a big load of BS, at least when it comes to Queen's. I do think that my background was a big reason why I scored rather high on the "personal attributes" at U of A (without any research or pubs, for example), so I would lean towards saying that U of Alberta, for one, IS practicing what they preach about "diversity" (I loathe that term, hehe).

[SuckaMD]

I'm a third year med student, so I'm somewhat distanced from MCAT/application writing and the associated hysteria, but I had a thought while reading this thread. I certainly haven't looked into this deeply, it's just an idea I came up with, so maybe someone more familiar with recent MCAT/admissions trends has investigated this further and can shed some light on the possibility.

 

Maybe there really are more people who have made the cutoffs because of the computer-based MCAT test. Is it not the case that one can now write the MCAT many times during the year (as opposed to the old April/August administrations)? Thus, many people who in the past would have had to sit out an entire application cycle due to an unacceptable MCAT are now given multiple MCAT tries per year, but only need to pull off an acceptable score once. Given that many (most?) people who come close but miss the cutoffs are capable of attaining competitive scores, these people would likely be able to achieve the cutoffs after a few tries. This mechanism would likely increase the number of applicants who deem their scores competitive and would thus feel comfortable spending the extra money to apply.

 

Unfortunately for current and future meds hopefuls, if my idea is correct it would most likely serve to further inflate MCAT cutoffs to keep the number of interviewees constant (remember that MCAT cutoffs are not, as they may sometimes seem, arbitrary; the schools decide how many to interview and come up with a GPA and MCAT formula that allows them to interview those numbers). Recent changes in MCAT administration, number of available seats at several schools, interest in medicine as a career (there is at least anecdotal evidence that this has increased recently) and other factors may mean that we are in a period of admissions-standards flux which could take a few years to resolve. Maybe the Queen's MCAT cutoff shuffle of last year isn't the end of it. Then again, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, which is probably the most likely situation.

 

I tend to think that there are many reasons for the increase in applicants, including those already posited and discussed on this thread such as elimination of the Queen's essay questions. But I'd like your comments on the possibility that the new MCAT administration has been contributing to increases in applicants and changes in interview cutoffs. It would also be helpful to know if application spikes have been seen at other schools as well, but I think that information usually doesn't come out until the OMSAS report following acceptances unless individual schools make the numbers known earlier, like Queen's has done.

[Alastriss]

I'm a third year med student, so I'm somewhat distanced from MCAT/application writing and the associated hysteria, but I had a thought while reading this thread. I certainly haven't looked into this deeply, it's just an idea I came up with, so maybe someone more familiar with recent MCAT/admissions trends has investigated this further and can shed some light on the possibility.

 

Maybe there really are more people who have made the cutoffs because of the computer-based MCAT test. Is it not the case that one can now write the MCAT many times during the year (as opposed to the old April/August administrations)? Thus, many people who in the past would have had to sit out an entire application cycle due to an unacceptable MCAT are now given multiple MCAT tries per year, but only need to pull off an acceptable score once. Given that many (most?) people who come close but miss the cutoffs are capable of attaining competitive scores, these people would likely be able to achieve the cutoffs after a few tries. This mechanism would likely increase the number of applicants who deem their scores competitive and would thus feel comfortable spending the extra money to apply.

 

Unfortunately for current and future meds hopefuls, if my idea is correct it would most likely serve to further inflate MCAT cutoffs to keep the number of interviewees constant (remember that MCAT cutoffs are not, as they may sometimes seem, arbitrary; the schools decide how many to interview and come up with a GPA and MCAT formula that allows them to interview those numbers). Recent changes in MCAT administration, number of available seats at several schools, interest in medicine as a career (there is at least anecdotal evidence that this has increased recently) and other factors may mean that we are in a period of admissions-standards flux which could take a few years to resolve. Maybe the Queen's MCAT cutoff shuffle of last year isn't the end of it. Then again, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, which is probably the most likely situation.

 

I tend to think that there are many reasons for the increase in applicants, including those already posited and discussed on this thread such as elimination of the Queen's essay questions. But I'd like your comments on the possibility that the new MCAT administration has been contributing to increases in applicants and changes in interview cutoffs. It would also be helpful to know if application spikes have been seen at other schools as well, but I think that information usually doesn't come out until the OMSAS report following acceptances unless individual schools make the numbers known earlier, like Queen's has done.

 

A few things before I go on:

 

I think Queen's does a great job in directing the interview towards discussing your personality and your experiences, which I liked more than UWOs "health-care, rural med problem, sociopolitical issue based questions".

 

Jochi I sympathized with you, and for a guy who got discredited for using an experience at the age of 19 by my interviewer- apparently too young, I was only 21!) we can't judge them all based on who we had that day.

 

 

To quote the 3rd year med students here are a few points:

- UWO meds actually said last year that the decrease in the number of applicants was due to less mcat seats.

- Queen's meds said that they saw a decrease in the VR score last year for some reason due to the Computer based tests

- We have seen no inflation in the last cycle from mcat heavy schools like UMan and UWO.

 

What you suggested was what we all strongly thought, but it seems like the probability of increasing your score is the same as it was before (relatively low! There is a really cool grid on the aamc website telling you what your chances are of increasing your score from x to y) and it can't really be shotgunned as you only have 3 chances before you get special permission.

 

We will have to see, UWO will release their numbers pretty soon I think. When they do we will know whether it's increase in applicants across the board or just at queen's.

[Jochi1543]

I think Queen's does a great job in directing the interview towards discussing your personality and your experiences, which I liked more than UWOs "health-care, rural med problem, sociopolitical issue based questions".

 

Did you have any MMIs last year?

[tyro]

I think they got rid of the 3 chances rule.

 

And some random trivia from that table: 12% of who scored a 1 on BS stayed the same versus 0% on PS and 10% on VR.

 

 

There is a really cool grid on the aamc website telling you what your chances are of increasing your score from x to y) and it can't really be shotgunned as you only have 3 chances before you get special permission.

[Alastriss]

Did you have any MMIs last year?

 

No, but i think I know what you are getting at. It's funny how my friend who did panel got flat out rejected but when he did MMI he got in.

[Alastriss]

I think they got rid of the 3 chances rule.

 

And some random trivia from that table: 12% of who scored a 1 on BS stayed the same versus 0% on PS and 10% on VR.

 

ok well then we will see shotgunning