Alternatives to Ontario Med Schools with a GPA around 3.5.

[Rar]

Just wondering what the altneratives are/which alternatives are the best. What are the average GPA requirements for schools in the States? Do most people apply to the States if they can't get into schools in Canada. If you want to practice in Canada, is this easy/possible to do so after going to med school in Australia, Ireland, the Carribean, etc. I've heard a lot of stigma associated with going to the Carribean, so is Australia or Ireland a better choice?

[rogerroger]

Just wondering what the altneratives are/which alternatives are the best. What are the average GPA requirements for schools in the States? Do most people apply to the States if they can't get into schools in Canada. If you want to practice in Canada, is this easy/possible to do so after going to med school in Australia, Ireland, the Carribean, etc. I've heard a lot of stigma associated with going to the Carribean, so is Australia or Ireland a better choice?

 

 

1. I personally wouldn't touch the Caribbean. Residency directors in Canada simply don't respect the programs down there in my opinion. Your fighting a very uphill battle going down there.

 

2. If your GPA is decent like 3.6ish and you have +30 on the MCAT apply to the states. It is the easiest road back.

 

3. Also Australia and Ireland are viable options back to Canada. Ireland is VERY expensive like $300,000 +. Australia is about the same or slightly more affordable than the states. The standards for these schools are not low and have risen substantially in the last two years. You will need 3.6ish GPA maybe 3.5 if you have a good MCAT. In general the MCAT is worth less in Europe and Australia.

[CAS]

1. I personally wouldn't touch the Caribbean. Residency directors in Canada simply don't respect the programs down there in my opinion. Your fighting a very uphill battle going down there.

 

2. If your GPA is decent like 3.6ish and you have +30 on the MCAT apply to the states. It is the easiest road back.

 

3. Also Australia and Ireland are viable options back to Canada. Ireland is VERY expensive like $300,000 +. Australia is about the same or slightly more affordable than the states. The standards for these schools are not low and have risen substantially in the last two years. You will need 3.6ish GPA maybe 3.5 if you have a good MCAT. In general the MCAT is worth less in Europe and Australia.

 

I was under the impression it was the other way around in Australia. The GPA is worth far far less than the MCAT. Most schools seem to ask for only a 70% ish average.

[Zuckman]

Cas, you're right. Some schools do take GPA quite seriously, but most don't

 

One school that is a good option for Canadians is the new Cornell in Qatar program. It's very hard to get into, but the match stats speak for themselves. The match from this program was VERY good last year (the first cohort to match). Nothing like other IMGs. This shows you how 'brand name' can have a huge effect in the US. Also, the students in this program are very intelligent too. You get a Cornell MD. If I had the stats, I would have gone here. It's quite a nice place to live too. They mostly accept Qatar citizens but they accept some Americans and Canadians too.

[Zuckman]

If your goal is to work in the US, I would also consider Sackler, Technion, and BGU in Israel. They are very well respected and tend to have great matching..especially in the New York area of the US. This is where most of their alumni end up. Israel can be unstable though, but it's not half as dangerous as the media shows.

 

If you're interested in International Health, then BGU is probably the best program out there. Definitely take a look at it.

[Zuckman]

Here's the match list for Cornell Qatar

http://www.qatar-med.cornell.edu/media/reports/2008/grad08/match.html

 

Some very impressive hospitals and specialties. Most of these people are not American citizens so they have the visa issue that Canadians would have.

[xylem29]

Wow - that's an incredible match list indeed. I wonder if they are expected to return to Qatar to practice?

[Zuckman]

From what I know, most of the Qatar students actually want to go back to their country to practice. However, if they're board certified in the US, I'm sure they can stay if they wish.

 

There are Canadians studying there as well. They had really good stats though.

[Dr pipo]

Zuck,

 

What do you mean by good stats? any estimation?

________

Vapir No2 Vaporizer

[Zuckman]

Well, the site mentions that the stats required are equivalent to the Cornell NY stats. However, I don't think that was true for past years. Now, probably quite true since the match list proves beyond doubt that the program is very strong. Before the match list came out, there were some people who doubted the program.

 

I know a Canadian studying there. From what I recall, stats were MCAT 34 (balanced on all sections), GPA 3.8, very strong EC's, and interviews went well (there are 2 separate interviews for this school). He also picked the school over Canadian medical schools he was admitted to.

 

My advice is to apply if you have American MD stats. You never know what will happen if you have a great interview. Also, for anyone who thinks Cornell MD Qatar is like any other FMG program, they really have to do their research. The matching ability in the US is very strong from here! I've done lots of research regarding schools outside North America, and this one is very special!

[xylem29]

SGU in the carribbean is a fine choice if you're in Ontario. In fact they have Residency matching in Ontario now. So basically you do 2 years in the Carribbean and after that you do everything in Ontario .

 

So your clerkships are done in ON? I don't think that's the case - at least not right now. Maybe a few electives during MS4 but not MS3.

[Swift Fox]

SGU in the carribbean is a fine choice if you're in Ontario. In fact they have Residency matching in Ontario now. So basically you do 2 years in the Carribbean and after that you do everything in Ontario --- not a bad option.

 

Misleading comments. Firstly, the match is low. Under 10. Secondly the assumption of doing clerkship in Canada is simply incorrect.

 

The fact of the matter is, people who don't "respect" Caribbean schools don't know anyone who has gone there or haven't researched the school well enough to understand how beneficial they can be. I have relatives who have gone to SGU and did their residencies in New York and are now pulling over 150K a year in the states.

 

Is SGU viable for the states? Sure, especially if you are an American citizen. As a Canadian you will have a rougher ride in terms of return of service agreements and visas, yet it can be done. Coming to Canada is much much MUCH less likely.

 

As a Canadian clerk I have spoken will residency directors. Many don't look at the Caribbean seriously. Trust me... If you look at the Canadian international grads in 99% of Canadian programs they are not from SGU or any other Caribbean school. Sorry to burst your bubble big guy.

 

 

If you are looking for slummy prestige rather than the skills you actually learn (I hear SGU has a great teaching staff); then fail at getting into Ontario schools with a 3.5GPA.

 

Otherwise go to the Carribbean, follow your dreams, finish ahead of the game.

 

Your better off saving money for a year and trying to up that GPA to 3.6 and going for an American, Australian, Irish or British med school. Everything from my experiences investigating individual residency programs for my own CaRMS match indicates this... Be warned!

 

 

So beware of the comments above, they are very misleading and not indicative of the reality in Canada.

[njell]

Hi people I really want to be a doctor but my marks arent up to par(3.7ish) for Canada med school(I'm also ON resident!) and looking outside of Canada to fulfill my dream. Right now Australia looks like the best way considering my marks and MCAT(32O) and its relatively cheaper tuition compared to the states or Europe.

 

What I dont understand is after 4th year med I've read through some threads and etc and it seems it is possible to comeback to Canada for residency(which is extremely hard and competitive)but Im not to sure how a internationally graduated med student can come back. How is the process and what do people that normally come back for residency did that made them competitive for residency in Canada? Is it doing some core 4th year rotations in Canada? Is there more?

 

I'm trying to gather all the info I can get for the ways of returning to Canada for residency or the process that is done in order for residency in Canada:D.

[KennethToronto]

Hi people I really want to be a doctor but my marks arent up to par(3.7ish) for Canada med school(I'm also ON resident!) and looking outside of Canada to fulfill my dream. Right now Australia looks like the best way considering my marks and MCAT(32O) and its relatively cheaper tuition compared to the states or Europe.

 

What I dont understand is after 4th year med I've read through some threads and etc and it seems it is possible to comeback to Canada for residency(which is extremely hard and competitive)but Im not to sure how a internationally graduated med student can come back. How is the process and what do people that normally come back for residency did that made them competitive for residency in Canada? Is it doing some core 4th year rotations in Canada? Is there more?

 

I'm trying to gather all the info I can get for the ways of returning to Canada for residency or the process that is done in order for residency in Canada:D.

 

The reason why there's so little information about it is because very few people end up doing this. I ran into the same wall trying to do research for US Schools and what happens at the end of fourth year...and keep in mind going to the US is a lot more straightforward because all the schools in North America are LCME accredited and thus Canadian US trained students are still treated as CMGs in the CaRMS match.

 

Once you get into IMG territory, then it gets even more hazy with ROS agreements, different match systems depending on the province (parallel vs. second), licensure, etc etc. Not fun.

 

Rule of thumb: do your training where you want to practice. If you change that up, it gets exponentially more difficult and uncertain. With your stats, I wouldn't give up so quickly.

[mrhumble]

The reason why there's so little information about it is because very few people end up doing this. I ran into the same wall trying to do research for US Schools and what happens at the end of fourth year...and keep in mind going to the US is a lot more straightforward because all the schools in North America are LCME accredited and thus Canadian US trained students are still treated as CMGs in the CaRMS match.

 

Once you get into IMG territory, then it gets even more hazy with ROS agreements, different match systems depending on the province (parallel vs. second), licensure, etc etc. Not fun.

 

Rule of thumb: do your training where you want to practice. If you change that up, it gets exponentially more difficult and uncertain. With your stats, I wouldn't give up so quickly.

 

 

Are you in UofT medical school?

Just curious after looking at the sig.

 

How is the UofT medical school like? Are you guaranteed to do clinical rotation in the hospitals near UofT?

[drblue]

do the british/irish schools have additional requirements that international applicants must complete? for example, i read somewhere that you have to do a UKCAT? Or is the MCAT sufficient?

I have a cumulative GPA of about 3.5, 27 MCAT....although that GPA will definitely be going up thanks to a 4.0 last semester....would you say its worth doing a masters and reapplying to canadian/american schools or just going to an irish/british school?

[leviathan]

Misleading comments. Firstly, the match is low. Under 10. Secondly the assumption of doing clerkship in Canada is simply incorrect.

The match rate is a bit low, but that is partly because the majority of Canadians studying in the Caribbean never bother fighting to come back to a system that doesn't want them back. Clerkship in Canada is possible, but not very likely. You have to know the right people, but it can be and has been done by many people I know, especially in the Maritimes.

 

Is SGU viable for the states? Sure, especially if you are an American citizen. As a Canadian you will have a rougher ride in terms of return of service agreements and visas, yet it can be done. Coming to Canada is much much MUCH less likely.

This is all very accurate. Don't EVER expect to come back to Canada if you head to a Caribbean school, unless you want to deal with all sorts of ROS contracts, extra licensing requirements, etc etc...

[Alastriss]

The match rate is a bit low, but that is partly because the majority of Canadians studying in the Caribbean never bother fighting to come back to a system that doesn't want them back. Clerkship in Canada is possible, but not very likely. You have to know the right people, but it can be and has been done by many people I know, especially in the Maritimes.

 

 

This is all very accurate. Don't EVER expect to come back to Canada if you head to a Caribbean school, unless you want to deal with all sorts of ROS contracts, extra licensing requirements, etc etc...

 

I know that if you go to an LCME school in the US you can come back relatively easily (write exams, make sure residency years are on par), so what is the problem with the carribean route if you do residency in the US?

[RDB]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it once you do residency in the states. The problem is GETTING a US residency as a CANADIAN citizen GOING TO THE CARRIBBEAN. This is the major chokepoint that all CANADIANS considering carribs should think about. I'm not saying its impossible, there are DEFINITELY success stories and anyone who denies them would be a pederast or something.

 

But it is SIGNIFICANTLY harder to match back to canada AT THE RESIDENCY STAGE and there are SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED OPPORTUNITIES for post grad stuff IN THE CARRIBBEAN provided you don't match in Canada. You will also have a harder time matching into the states as compared to a states citizen/PR. Why? because program directors are human and old men and come from a time before these options were viable and such and they call the shots. That's just how life is. It's not impossible, but it's harder.

 

What it all boils down to is comfort level. How comfortable are you with greater risk? If you are going for broke, I don't think you should let people here stop you.

 

One big thing I've noticed, is that people choose carrib over UK/AUS(when US and CAN become not so viable) because its "closer." No disrespect meant, but this is absolute bs. Why? Because no matter where you are, if you're outside Canada/US, you are ALWAYS going to be one airplane ride away. What the heck is an extra 6-7 hours compared to an already 4-6 hour flight? You'll make what? max 2 return trips a year? You really are losing out on significant amount of face time with your friends and family anyways. This really isn't a realistic concern once you do the time, cost, and RISK analysis. Sure geographically its closer and on the same hemisphere, but you DEFINITELY won't be seeing them every other week. You wil lsee them thanksgiving weekend if you can afford it, or else its christmas and summer time. This is the cost of uprooting and shooting for your dreams.

 

You're all adults here, and I think there comes a time when we all need to realize that medicine isn't as impossible as ontario makes it out to be. Perhaps for some of us, the sacrifice ISN'T in a stellar GPA or MCAT, but a willingness to simply explore a different road, go outside of canada, etc. Maybe some of you just want to lead a good life here in Canada and there's nothing wrong with going through medschool to do that. But if it's the end product you're afterwards(and it's ok to be honest about this IMHO, lets not let higher moral standards cloud our true judgement because that's NOT helpful to our decision making) they should explore other avenues if staying in canada is #1. If you really want to do medicine, be prepared to make some sacrifices to make it happen and don't let naysayers stop you, but also be TOTALLY honest with yourself and reality in your assessment.

 

For the record, I'm totally going for aus cuz i think I'll love life down there because they do give a really viable route for postgrad training there. and cuz I was a lazy sack of **** in school with low GPA but I pulled a 35 on my MCAT so I know i can definitely think like a medschool kiddie and pull it off. I just really didn't feel like studying things like memorizing random 3 letter genes and so many random protein names that most residents don't even remember and use in day to day life because it doesn't play as much a factor in patient treating and management(but that's another debate). I've made my peace with potentially forever leaving canada, but I'm sure a lot of you out there haven't truly done so honestly. If you have though, all the more power to ya and rock on!

[aclementine]

...I'm totally going for aus cuz i think I'll love life down there because they do give a really viable route for postgrad training there... I've made my peace with potentially forever leaving canada...

 

what kind of options are available to Canadians after graduating from an Australia medical school?

[RDB]

The options are friggin awesome comp with carrib. The way their system works is everyone does one year internship after the basic med training, then after that applies for residency. A lot of canadians do get internships and those internships ARE PAID. during that time you apply for a PR and yeah, competitive specialties are VERY realistic. Rogerroger has made a post more detailed than mine. Plus rogerroger also has that famous breaking down the match post that estimates a PRETTY DAMNED solid chance of matching back to canada from aus which for some reason I don't know why still doesn't convince people that aus is better than carrib. Search the forums and all that cuz I don't feel right stealing his thunder on that post it would make me feel guilty enough to eat a dog or something.

[leviathan]

I know that if you go to an LCME school in the US you can come back relatively easily (write exams, make sure residency years are on par), so what is the problem with the carribean route if you do residency in the US?

In Canada, there are very few IMG residency spots.

In the US, there are many more spots, but they're all for American citizens. To do residency in the US, you will need the hospital to sponsor you for a J1 or H1B visa, which severely limits your options of who is willing to do that. Granted, you will find *something*, but it will probably just be family medicine and in a very undesirable location. If you're OK with that, then yes you can come back to Canada, but only if you sign a return of service contract and work in a rural town. Even then, there are still some issues with having to write Canadian licensing exams, but I believe Ontario has recently accepted USMLE 1+2 as equivalent to MCCQE. There is still the MCEEE exam which may or may not be waived.

[Alastriss]

In Canada, there are very few IMG residency spots.

In the US, there are many more spots, but they're all for American citizens. To do residency in the US, you will need the hospital to sponsor you for a J1 or H1B visa, which severely limits your options of who is willing to do that. Granted, you will find *something*, but it will probably just be family medicine and in a very undesirable location. If you're OK with that, then yes you can come back to Canada, but only if you sign a return of service contract and work in a rural town. Even then, there are still some issues with having to write Canadian licensing exams, but I believe Ontario has recently accepted USMLE 1+2 as equivalent to MCCQE. There is still the MCEEE exam which may or may not be waived.

 

Hmm so you are saying that US grad and a carribean grad who end up going to the same place for residency in the US and want to come back to canada after they finish their residency are still not completely equal?

[drblue]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it once you do residency in the states. The problem is GETTING a US residency as a CANADIAN citizen GOING TO THE CARRIBBEAN. This is the major chokepoint that all CANADIANS considering carribs should think about. I'm not saying its impossible, there are DEFINITELY success stories and anyone who denies them would be a pederast or something.

 

But it is SIGNIFICANTLY harder to match back to canada AT THE RESIDENCY STAGE and there are SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED OPPORTUNITIES for post grad stuff IN THE CARRIBBEAN provided you don't match in Canada. You will also have a harder time matching into the states as compared to a states citizen/PR. Why? because program directors are human and old men and come from a time before these options were viable and such and they call the shots. That's just how life is. It's not impossible, but it's harder.

 

What it all boils down to is comfort level. How comfortable are you with greater risk? If you are going for broke, I don't think you should let people here stop you.

 

One big thing I've noticed, is that people choose carrib over UK/AUS(when US and CAN become not so viable) because its "closer." No disrespect meant, but this is absolute bs. Why? Because no matter where you are, if you're outside Canada/US, you are ALWAYS going to be one airplane ride away. What the heck is an extra 6-7 hours compared to an already 4-6 hour flight? You'll make what? max 2 return trips a year? You really are losing out on significant amount of face time with your friends and family anyways. This really isn't a realistic concern once you do the time, cost, and RISK analysis. Sure geographically its closer and on the same hemisphere, but you DEFINITELY won't be seeing them every other week. You wil lsee them thanksgiving weekend if you can afford it, or else its christmas and summer time. This is the cost of uprooting and shooting for your dreams.

 

You're all adults here, and I think there comes a time when we all need to realize that medicine isn't as impossible as ontario makes it out to be. Perhaps for some of us, the sacrifice ISN'T in a stellar GPA or MCAT, but a willingness to simply explore a different road, go outside of canada, etc. Maybe some of you just want to lead a good life here in Canada and there's nothing wrong with going through medschool to do that. But if it's the end product you're afterwards(and it's ok to be honest about this IMHO, lets not let higher moral standards cloud our true judgement because that's NOT helpful to our decision making) they should explore other avenues if staying in canada is #1. If you really want to do medicine, be prepared to make some sacrifices to make it happen and don't let naysayers stop you, but also be TOTALLY honest with yourself and reality in your assessment.

 

For the record, I'm totally going for aus cuz i think I'll love life down there because they do give a really viable route for postgrad training there. and cuz I was a lazy sack of **** in school with low GPA but I pulled a 35 on my MCAT so I know i can definitely think like a medschool kiddie and pull it off. I just really didn't feel like studying things like memorizing random 3 letter genes and so many random protein names that most residents don't even remember and use in day to day life because it doesn't play as much a factor in patient treating and management(but that's another debate). I've made my peace with potentially forever leaving canada, but I'm sure a lot of you out there haven't truly done so honestly. If you have though, all the more power to ya and rock on!

 

excellent post...i agree with you, ontario does make it hard to get into med schools, but i suppose thats also because a lot of excellent candidates do apply so they have the luxury of picking the ones they think are the best...

ps: too late to apply for aus/uk now?

[Loafy]

I came across this today while browsing some CBC articles:

 

http://www.cma.ca/index.cfm/ci_id/88207/la_id/1/print/true.htm

 

Would the path that these PLIMGs are following not be similar to the ones we would face if deciding to attend school overseas? I suppose you would have to match (in Australia for example) and go this route afterward, but would it not be viable?