recidency required?? (going into ND after MD)

[honeydue2000]

excuse me if this question is very obviously available anywhere, but I can't seem to find the answer.

 

I am wondering is a residency is essential to practice medicine in Canada (Ontario specifically)

 

ultimately I want to get my MD first and then get my ND (naturopathic medicine) so im wondering if i need to do a residency or if i can just go into naturpathic medicine right after my 4 years of med school?

 

does anyone know??

thanks so much in advance

[Mithril]

Uh, to practice naturopathic medicine you should probably go to school for naturopathic medicine rather than trying to get a degree in allopathic medicine. Then you need to do the NPLEX and regional licensing exams.

 

That's the extent of my ND knowledge because naturopathic medicine is pretty asinine.

[aaronjw]

Uh, to practice naturopathic medicine you should probably go to school for naturopathic medicine rather than trying to get a degree in allopathic medicine. Then you need to do the NPLEX and regional licensing exams.

 

That's the extent of my ND knowledge because naturopathic medicine is pretty asinine.

 

Im sure you could have done without the second part of your post. No need to go all dink

[A-Stark]

I am wondering is a residency is essential to practice medicine in Canada (Ontario specifically)

 

Pretty much.

[Mithril]

Im sure you could have done without the second part of your post. No need to go all dink

I'll call it how I see it. I don't support therapies that take advantage of the people's distrust in conventional evidence-based medicine in favour of the general pseudoscience that makes up the principles of rolfing, iridology, homeopathy, etc.

[aaronjw]

I'll call it how I see it. I don't support therapies that take advantage of the people's distrust in conventional evidence-based medicine in favour of the general pseudoscience that makes up the principles of rolfing, iridology, homeopathy, etc.

 

That's fine but he didn't ask your opinion on naturopathic medicine. He had done so then I think you'd be in the right to offer your opinion.

[Mithril]

I don't think I need someone to tell me when I can and can't offer my opinion on naturopathy when an MD program is being considered for its use as a means to practice naturopathy.

[honeydue2000]

@mithril, i dont appreciate your comments, they are unnecessary, even if its what you believe, you dont need to voice it.

 

@alastriss, I want to pursue both because I feel that a lot of people dont value naturpathic medicine or really trust it or give it a chance, and so by obtaining an MD first I feel that i could combine the best of both worlds. naturopathic medicine is more in line with my values, and i tihnk there will be a growing demand for it in the future. also i am interested in working with doctors without borders, in which case an MD would be required. overall i just think that it would be a HUGE benefit in a ND career to have an MD first. and if i can, why not? btu i dont see myself practicing as an MD in the long term. there are just certain things about it that dont appeal to me, and thats where the ND comes in.

[honeydue2000]

and just because the scientific method has not been applied to many forms of alternative medicine does not make them any less effective. that is one of my problems with MD. doctors think they are high and mighty, but sometimes they are more motivated by the drug companies who fund them and sponser them, etc. western medicine is not the be all and end all, i think we all have a lot to learn by looking to other cultures, I feel a huge responsibility as a global citizen and naturopathic medicine is more encompassing of that, btu i am also intelligent enough to see the value in an allopathic medicine degree

[BigM]

@mithril, i dont appreciate your comments, they are unnecessary, even if its what you believe, you dont need to voice it.

 

@alastriss, I want to pursue both because I feel that a lot of people dont value naturpathic medicine or really trust it or give it a chance, and so by obtaining an MD first I feel that i could combine the best of both worlds. naturopathic medicine is more in line with my values, and i tihnk there will be a growing demand for it in the future. also i am interested in working with doctors without borders, in which case an MD would be required. overall i just think that it would be a HUGE benefit in a ND career to have an MD first. and if i can, why not? btu i dont see myself practicing as an MD in the long term. there are just certain things about it that dont appeal to me, and thats where the ND comes in.

 

Hopefully someone can correct me if I am wrong on this, but without completing a residency you will not be able to apply your MD. You cannot work as an ND and prescribe mediciations as an MD unless you are legally licensed which requires that you have completed a residency.

 

There are some MDs who do combine both worlds (although I imagine they are exceedingly rare). I was shadowing a family doc a few weeks ago who completed a fellowship in natural medicine and used it for some aspects of his practice. Essentially you can tell people to take ND drugs without an ND degree but you can't prescribe unless you have the MD + residency.

 

Hope that helps.

[honeydue2000]

@ BigM: that helps immensely! thanks

[mavrik13]

and just because the scientific method has not been applied to many forms of alternative medicine does not make them any less effective. that is one of my problems with MD. doctors think they are high and mighty, but sometimes they are more motivated by the drug companies who fund them and sponser them, etc. western medicine is not the be all and end all, i think we all have a lot to learn by looking to other cultures, I feel a huge responsibility as a global citizen and naturopathic medicine is more encompassing of that, btu i am also intelligent enough to see the value in an allopathic medicine degree

 

I always find this argument funny from Naturopath supporters... how exactly are Naturopaths paid? Oh, that's right, they directly bill their clients, and sell them their "medications" and supplements (at a retail markup). That is even worse than big pharma... Naturopaths put their clients money in their own pockets from both acting as a gatekeeper (you should try X drug), but also as a salesman (I sell X drug over here for $49.99).

 

There is certainly a time and place for Naturopathy... but I don't buy most of the arguments for Naturopathy. If there was medical value in anything that most Naturopaths recommend, big pharma would have jumped on it years (if not decades) ago, patented the active compound, figured out how to artificially synthesize it, and package it into a a little pill.

[aaronjw]

I always find this argument funny from Naturopath supporters... how exactly are Naturopaths paid? Oh, that's right, they directly bill their clients, and sell them their "medications" and supplements (at a retail markup). That is even worse than big pharma... Naturopaths put their clients money in their own pockets from both acting as a gatekeeper (you should try X drug), but also as a salesman (I sell X drug over here for $49.99).

 

There is certainly a time and place for Naturopathy... but I don't buy most of the arguments for Naturopathy. If there was medical value in anything that most Naturopaths recommend, big pharma would have jumped on it years (if not decades) ago, patented the active compound, figured out how to artificially synthesize it, and package it into a a little pill.

 

Lets see, i've helped type 2 diabetics reverse their diabetes through a though nutritional, supplementation and exercise strategy.

 

I've helped people with HBP through nutritional, supplementation and exercise strategies

 

The list goes on. Now, im not adcovating one practice over another but by and large the above treatmemts from an MD would have been drug based.

 

There are many ailments which can be helped through alternative therapies. Its the close minded people who think there's one way and one way only to treat people.

[honeydue2000]

There is certainly a time and place for Naturopathy... but I don't buy most of the arguments for Naturopathy. If there was medical value in anything that most Naturopaths recommend, big pharma would have jumped on it years (if not decades) ago, patented the active compound, figured out how to artificially synthesize it, and package it into a a little pill.

 

that would defeat the purpose of naturopathic medicine... to heal without chemicals/ artifical compounds.... I have watched a few documentaries on the influence of drug companies, it is quite shocking. They run trials in 3rd worl countries where people do not give proper consent adn they dont care how many people die in the process, as long as it means they can release their drug sooner, and anyone who speaks up against this crime is fired. further, naturopathic medicine doesnt rely on drugs, but rather natural remidies, things that people could grow themselves at home if they were so inclined.

[Mithril]

Lets see, i've helped type 2 diabetics reverse their diabetes through a though nutritional, supplementation and exercise strategy.

 

I've helped people with HBP through nutritional, supplementation and exercise strategies

 

The list goes on. Now, im not adcovating one practice over another but by and large the above treatmemts from an MD would have been drug based.

 

There are many ailments which can be helped through alternative therapies. Its the close minded people who think there's one way and one way only to treat people.

Implying that MDs are all about prescribing pills and not including more holistic approaches.

 

that would defeat the purpose of naturopathic medicine... to heal without chemicals/ artifical compounds... further, naturopathic medicine doesnt rely on drugs, but rather natural remidies, things that people could grow themselves at home if they were so inclined.

This is known as the naturalistic fallacy or appeal to nature, where the idea that things grown "naturally", whatever that means, are inherently good whereas "synthetic" compounds are inferior. Also, you may want to read up on ND programs to see that they in fact do use chemicals, which are found in what you claim are "natural" remedies", but mix quackery with it.

[ihatechem]

[rmorelan]

Lets see, i've helped type 2 diabetics reverse their diabetes through a though nutritional, supplementation and exercise strategy.

 

I've helped people with HBP through nutritional, supplementation and exercise strategies

 

The list goes on. Now, im not adcovating one practice over another but by and large the above treatmemts from an MD would have been drug based.

 

 

I am actually kind of glad to say that all of those treatments would be exactly the same sort of thing we do at the diabetic or HBP clinic as a part of standard medicine as I have been taught. That actually isn't alternative medicine any more The reason they are used is because they have been shown to work basically.

 

One issue that hasn't been brought up is if you are licensed to practise as a doctor the the licensing may block you from using naturopathic medicine beyond a point that you might be comfortable with. If you recommend naturopathic treatment X over the stand treatment plan to a patient and they fail to recover or have a bad outcome (which of course can happen with any treatment) then you are very exposed legally and college would be all over you (same thing would happen if any doctor did something outside of the standard treatment plan and something bad happened - ie new surgical procedure, off label use of a drug,). You would not be following evidenced based medicine. There could easily be some issues with some types of billing for services as well.

 

Doctors also have to be careful in lumping all alternative medical approaches as being the same. Some have more grounded explanations for why they would work than others. It would also be nice if the naturopath industry would undertake some more rigorous studies of their own (it is a huge industry so obviously they have the funding to do this. They cannot really say they are defenceless overall). In the end doctors do listen to that sort of evidence (sometimes we can be a bit slow, but so is everyone else in their particular area of focus I guess)

 

Also we can bash the pharm companies all we want, but until the governments of the world actually step up and fund drug research (and we as citizens compel them to do so) then we have kind of abandoned our responsibilities there. This is not to say the drug companies haven't done some terrible things. They have also done some amazing things - it is just such a polarizing industry.

 

Oh any before some gets snarky and points this out harshly, naturopaths don't treat without chemicals, it is just that those chemicals are in a more unpurified natural state in the plants etc. Similarly to a medical doctor natural remedies are also just another type of drug by definition (A substance that has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body blah, blah). I think half the time these different fields just get choked up on everyone's different definition of terms

[scissortail]

excuse me if this question is very obviously available anywhere, but I can't seem to find the answer.

 

I am wondering is a residency is essential to practice medicine in Canada (Ontario specifically)

 

ultimately I want to get my MD first and then get my ND (naturopathic medicine) so im wondering if i need to do a residency or if i can just go into naturpathic medicine right after my 4 years of med school?

 

does anyone know??

thanks so much in advance

 

I see this thread has degenerated into a debate about the value of naturapathic medicine. But going back on the OP's original question, ND and MD are two very different, but parallel career pathway. They DO NOT come one after another. Just like MD, ND is a second entry program and comprises of 4 years of education, costing around $20,000 per year. The curriculum is actually structured similar to an MD curriculum, with preclerkship and clerkship training, culminating in an ND degree. This is then followed by a few years of residency and specialized training. One difference is ND entry requirement is much less than the medical school requirement.

 

Having said this, I've never heard of anybody who has both degrees. I can understand why somebody with an ND would apply to medical school to get an MD, but why you would want an ND after you already have an MD is beyond me. No offense to naturopathic doctors, but many people choose this route because they cannot get into a medical school in the first place. If you want both, you would essentially be going through a super competitive application process and 4 years of gruesome training in the MD program, only go pay $80,000 more to do 4 more years of a less intensive version of that same training.

 

If your are passionate about naturopathic medicine but are worried about credibility, it is a good idea to get your MD and like somebody mentioned, do a fellowship in naturopathic medicine. You can then incorporate naturopathic medicine principles in your practice. You don't actually need both degrees.

[RyanMaverick]

I don't mean this to be a jerk, but I have a feeling you're going to have a very difficult time during the MMI unless you find a way to successfully hide and mask your views on this topic.

 

Edit to the above: I do work with somebody who is both an ND and a Pharmacist. I was ok with that as she was practicing solely as a pharmacist, until she spent an entire hour arguing for homeopathy. I feel you want to be an ND, but you think you can validate it by getting an MD first. In my opinion, it's not going to work.

[HopeToBeGreen]

Thanks to scissor tail for the well thought out, productive response.

 

I'd also point out that trying to be both a naturopathic and medical doctor can be a fairly dangerous road to follow. To be a medical doctor in Ontario you need to be registered with the College of Physicians and Surgeons. Among other things, the college is a regulatory body and one of their responsibilities is to ensure that all practicing medical doctors maintain an appropriate standard of practice. Put simply that means that as a doctor your treatment must be consistent with what a competent medical doctor would do. The college will likely not consider prescribing naturopathic remedies an appropriate standard of care and could discipline you.

 

It could go down like this. One day you'll see a patient with high blood pressure. Since you are strongly drawn to naturopathic medicine, your first instinct will be to use a natural remedy. The patient will then have a bad outcome like a stroke or a heart attack. The patient, his family or some other doctor that he sees will then complain to the college that the patient did not receive an appropriate standard of care. The college will investigate and find that you prescribed ground up something-root instead of a diuretic.

 

You've seen on this board the disdain that many medical people hold for naturopathic medicine. I think you might find the same type of disdain both from your colleagues and the college. There might be quite a bit of glee in certain corners as you get punished for inappropriate care.

 

Of course if you're only a naturopathic doctor you don't have to answer to the College and you'll be more free to treat naturopathically.

[Julie]

The biggest misconceptions that NDs have against us is that they feel allopaths are against natural remedies. We aren't against natural remedies. In fact many of the drugs we use today are predecessors of natural compounds. We are against practicing medicine in the absence of evidence.

 

Indeed. We prescribe many natural remedies, including vitamins, when shown effective. We of course prescribe exercise, relaxation, good nutrition, psychotherapy, etc., etc. We try to prescribe treatments that have the best evidence, "natural" or not. We try to be mindful of the quality of the research we read and of any bias it may have. Of course it's not always perfect, but I think it's better than if there were no evidence.

 

We don't prescribe tobacco, as natural as it may be. It's important to remember that LOTS of natural products, including tobacco, can be really harmful to ppl and have side effects. The danger is when there's no research to tell what the potential harms are. And no matter how natural the product, there's often ppl making big $$$ on it, so it's not just big pharma that's out there for profit.

 

I agree with others that if you use your licence to practice medicine to gain credibility, but don't intend on adhering to the standard of practice, you will likely run into trouble with the college and possibly loose your licence.

 

EDIT : Also, if you don't believe in allopathic medicine, you might be quite miserable during your MD and residency training. I know I couldn't work this schedule if I didn't believe in what I was doing.

[apache]

not necessarily, the a priori assumption that pharmacotherapy and surgery is the cure for every ailment is also pretty asinine, it's also asinine to make presuppositions about things you propose ignorance of. Bottom line is that there are good naturopathic treatments, and bad naturopathic treatments, the same goes for allopathic medicine; allopathic fundamentalists who claim that if naturopathic medicine worked, it would be used, miss out out on the business and politics of medicine. in the end all i'm saying is that each paradigm have their own strengths and weaknesses, an i can attest to this, at least in psychiatry, where i have a breadth of knowledge of efficous "naturopathic" substances and often find myself educating clinicians about things they'd never heard of. Many of these substances have clinical trials backing them up but are largely unknown to the psychiatric community due to the conveniently pharma funded cme nights and other biased educational practices.

 

Uh, to practice naturopathic medicine you should probably go to school for naturopathic medicine rather than trying to get a degree in allopathic medicine. Then you need to do the NPLEX and regional licensing exams.

 

That's the extent of my ND knowledge because naturopathic medicine is pretty asinine.

[RiceWine]

 

No one said western medicine is the be-all, end-all. Western medicine strives to be evidence-based medicine, and evidence-based medicine IS the be-all, end-all.

 

The biggest misconceptions that NDs have against us is that they feel allopaths are against natural remedies. We aren't against natural remedies. In fact many of the drugs we use today are predecessors of natural compounds. We are against practicing medicine in the absence of evidence.

 

couldn't have said it better myself!

[Mashmetoo]

I see this thread has degenerated into a debate about the value of naturapathic medicine. But going back on the OP's original question, ND and MD are two very different, but parallel career pathway. They DO NOT come one after another. Just like MD, ND is a second entry program and comprises of 4 years of education, costing around $20,000 per year. The curriculum is actually structured similar to an MD curriculum, with preclerkship and clerkship training, culminating in an ND degree. This is then followed by a few years of residency and specialized training. One difference is ND entry requirement is much less than the medical school requirement.

 

Having said this, I've never heard of anybody who has both degrees. I can understand why somebody with an ND would apply to medical school to get an MD, but why you would want an ND after you already have an MD is beyond me. No offense to naturopathic doctors, but many people choose this route because they cannot get into a medical school in the first place. If you want both, you would essentially be going through a super competitive application process and 4 years of gruesome training in the MD program, only go pay $80,000 more to do 4 more years of a less intensive version of that same training.

 

If your are passionate about naturopathic medicine but are worried about credibility, it is a good idea to get your MD and like somebody mentioned, do a fellowship in naturopathic medicine. You can then incorporate naturopathic medicine principles in your practice. You don't actually need both degrees.

 

I won't question the OP's motivation for pursuing both the MD and ND. But you made the comment that you've never seen a person having a ND and a MD (essentially any "recognized" medical degree). I'd just like to say that in my class, there's this lady with a ND and is now pursuing the DO (you know, the other native medical degree indigenous to North America ). It was actually pretty awesome as during lecture once in a hall of 350+ people, the prof showed us the picture of a green leafed plant, said it was used to make quinine and asked us the name of that plant (he honestly was not expecting anyone to know that). Then the lady immediately shouted out "CINCHONA TREE!!"... It was one of those WTF, HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT moments, and it was awesome.

 

Also, I have heard of DO family doctors with previous ND degrees who have practiced as family doctors for years and years. It is in fact a way to validate your views on Naturapathic medicine if you are able to get a "recognized" degree in medicine and then practice. But then, you MUST have a ACGME/AOA residency. The said doctors were totally anti medication, even antibiotics and always went for natural remedies, whatever they are, as I'm too ignorant to know.

[Hippie_Chick]

Back to the original topic of this thread (i.e. not debating btwn naturopathic and allopathic medicine)...

 

there's actually a couple residency programs in the states that offer residencies in integrated medicine (it's like a family med residency integrated with naturopathic medicine, and you get to chose a couple modalities to specialize in). Additionally, there are also integrated medicine fellowships you can do after getting your MD.

 

Here are some links:

 

http://integrativemedicine.arizona.edu/education/imr.html

http://integrativemedicine.arizona.edu/education/fellowship/