why WOULDN'T I get in??

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Considering the discussion concerning "med student snobbery" - I thought I'd post this little anecdote about snobbery, med students and competing for residency spots. Anyways, rumour has it (I'm not 100% sure this story is true, heard 2nd hand from a 4th year) that two students who are graduating from Western were both competing this year for one of the more competitive residency programs (I want say which one to protect anonymity.) Applicant A supposedly had all "Honours" on their transcript, tons of research, 4 years of weekly electives with the department, and an excellent CV. Applicant B was still a good applicant - a mix of "Honours" & "Passes," a few interesting things on their CV, and they didn't decide on that program until 4th year. By all measures Applicant A was the better applicant. Applicant B ended up getting the spot.

 

Why?

 

No-one knows for sure, but what the 4th year told me that Applicant A was someone who was well accomplished, but also fairly high on themselves. Furthermore, Applicant A had that "I'm a med student so I'm holier than thou attitude" - apparently, on one of his/her shifts in clerkship, they were rude to one of the nurses (ie saying "go get my cofee as you're just a lowly nurse" or "I'm the med student, you're just a nurse. . . of course you can give a O- patient A+ blood!"). Well, as the story goes that nurse was married to the program director of the program Applicant A was shooting for!

 

Hospitals are such small communities that it really is hard to 'disguise' your personality, if that's what you're planning on doing when applying to residency programs. And the "I'm a med student so therefore holier than thou" attitude doesn't fly (or at least that's what I've been told. . . not really there yet!)

 

TO ADD TO THAT:

 

I just spent a couple hours chatting with a 4th year from Western who matched to a competitive residency program at U of T. He pretty much confirmed/reiterated what I said above. . . the key to matching is doing well in clerkship/electives and also getting along with EVERYONE on the floors - not just the consultants (ie docs), residents and other med students. Med students who look down on people not in the profession on the floors (physiotherapists, ward clerks, nurses, nutritionists janitors) can end up shooting themselves in the foot!

[Guest shkelo]

BURN!!!

[Guest Thewonderer]

1) you do tend to ignore my questions. you don't answer a lot of questions I have and just pick up parts of my post to answer. There are many parts to my post and other people's posts on the other UBC threads. For example, the other person asked you "if you had the excellent academic state you had (is it 90%+???) and did what you could (from UVic), but still rejected, what would you feel?" And all you did was "I really could not feel that way because it is hypothetical" and with one sentence to address a simple question, you went on and on for 3-4 paragraphs about how UBC med provides excellent education, is great in matching, has diverse classes, etc. etc. How come! Any one who can empathize another person's feeling could answer the other poster's question! Is it REALLY that hard to come out and say "if I did have academic stat I had and the EC's I did, I would be super pissed if I got rejected."

 

Quite honestly, I have many problems with how you post, but I never brought it up because you have done a fine good job on this board. But since you picked on me first, I don't feel bad pointing these things out.

 

And I disagree: we never hashed it out completely on the other thread because you tend to ignore many topics (i.e. 1] to do well in rotation tends to be based on how hard you work for your team and study, and perhaps that would be correlated how "gunner" you were as an undergrad and how much effort you were willing to put in for that 90%+ average, 2] isn't UBC med misleading other by publishing their interview percentile and academic percentile, and make it seem like it is 50-50 weight when in fact they only, according to your theory, use it as red flag? 3] have you finally pick up a rejectee's letter from UBC and read the academic and interview percentile and see their weights, like I suggested, etc. etc.). And if you like, please please address those topics on the other thread.

 

2) My post on UBC med is fine on this thread. What is this courtesy thing you like to bring out? I find that rather condescending ("sign...thanks...you should be courtesy, etc."). I like to use sarcasm to give a jolt and get some ears to listen. You like to use condescence to get points muted (i.e. this is what I am saying and that's it. although I never answered your question or 80% of your post, these are the things I know and I can ignore the rest of your post). Have you noticed that I tend to address your whole post, like here???

 

3) Yes, qualified people do get rejected by med schools. But when you get rejected and other people get in, doesn't it simply mean that UBC med finds other people MORE acceptable (in other word, more qualified) than you? Non? Do you agree or not? Yes, many people rejected can handle the rigor of UBC med and can make good doctors (your use of the word, "qualified"). But ultimately, UBC med has a limited number of spaces, so they have to accept some people who they DEEM better (in my word, more qualified) than others.

 

4) The title of the thread is Why wouldn't I get in? Some people brought their experiences with McMaster and I brought MANY people's experiences with UBC. How is it irrelevant? And how ubc med does its admissions might suggest why someone possibly could not get into med school (whether at UBC or other places that perhaps have similar bias with 90%+=nerds)? non?

 

5) So this IS the first year that Dr. Bates graduated. You seem to like to fixate on UBC med's reputation and how well it matches when compared to other schools (i.e. even better than other schools). So how long does it take to build up a school's reputation? Has McGill lost its reputation in the US even after severe government shrinkage of funds through 2 decades by now? So, therefore, do you think that this year's class match well due to previous years' reputation or their own "reputation"? Did this year's class manage to build its stellar clinical reputation that it is riding on even though it has not even graduated? It will probably take a few years to see how well regarded UBC med students really are after Dr. Bate's personally picked them.

 

And since you are "FIXATED" and unreasonably persistent on how well UBC matchs and even better than other Canadians schools, why don't you do a quick comparison of the match lists from a couple schools (it does not need to be objective, but just a quick one)?

 

6) it is my friend's comment about PBL cost. But if we are wrong, then I am sorry for that misinformation.

 

p.s. you also ignore my question about how hot UBC med is now after being on a course to lose part of its teaching hospital. I like that! You downgraded the whole importance of UBC teaching hospital and only went on and on about UBC's excellent education and reputation with blanket statements on the thread that brought up the pending closure of UBC hospital. You will make an excellent politician!

[Guest Thewonderer]

The other post's comment about people making comment like "If I had gotten into Yale and UBC, I would have gone to Yale." That's interesting. But no, both of my friends who got into Yale med did not do that. Both of them got in through the waitlists around late May and mid June. Although I did have a friend who went on and on with Dr. Bates about how he might practice in the US during the interview (he found out that Dr. Bates did practice in the states for a few years). That was not a smart move. But yes, he did think that he was better than UBC med.

 

I disagree however with the possibility that UBC med thinks that it can "not" compete. After all, all Canadian schools are pretty even and not many people will indeed come to the US for med schools (over UBC med). UBC simply uses its "own" admissions criteria that it might have misled some previous applicants.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Nope. I've said what I want to on this topic, and spent inordinately more time on this one topic in the UBC forum than I have for any other single thread in the longest time.

 

You are free to make your comments on the UBC forum, since your posts are completely directed towards UBC admissions. Quite frankly, what you don't seem to realise is that UBC does do a good job educating its students, we do just fine when it comes to matching our students to residencies, and we publish a lot more statistics regarding our admissions process than probably any other school in Canada. Of course this opens us up to more questions. Feel free to compare to other med school stats here:

 

premed101.com/medschools.html

 

The bottom line is that UBC has a mission statement of producing excellent doctors. We do produce them. That point is unarguable. The fact that there are only 128 spots out of 700 applicants is certainly going to lead to disappointed people, but that's why you apply to multiple medical schools. Most people don't get accepted into every medical school that they apply to, and that's simply reality. No one person can be all things to all schools.

 

I've said everything I need to say about UBC. It's an excellent medical school, and a fine place to receive an education. I'm out of this thread.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Jennifer y]

To Thewonderer:

You will flip if you hear the rumour who is shooting for the new Dean of Med spot at UBC.

[Guest YongQ]

Thewonderer,

 

Even if Ian had the patience to answer to your myriad of questions and qualms, he cannot criticize UBC like he can other schools because he is a student there - and he (like <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> all<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> med students) has a reputation to keep among the health care community esp. with CaRMS coming up in a few months. Therefore, whenever he says anything, it must be a fully qualified, completely evidence-based statement (contrary to many statements that you make in such an uninhibited fashion)... you must understand that nobody (particularly a 3rd year clerk!) really has time to research every little statement he or she makes on a board like this, so every post must count. Ian has made statements about the possible drawbacks of meds at UBC before (mostly to do with the incoming government and healthcare changes in BC), but note that all of these were very well-researched, valid posts.

 

Lastly, please stay civil on this board - badgering Ian (or anybody else here for that matter) is a one-way ticket to shutting down this thread, which I personally wouldn't want since it has been so productive in many respects.

 

YONGQ

[Guest Spiderman]

Hey thewonderer.

 

Gee, I WONDER why you are such a loser...

 

Maybe its because you spend your day on the internet complaining about med schools you can't get into.

 

Boo hoo hoo

 

All at once now... 'Get a LIFE'

[Guest MS1]

I don't think calling someone a "loser" will help the integrity of the discussions on this board; it doesn't add anything to the argument, and it certainly does not make the name caller look good.

 

I personally think the arguments between Ian and thewonderer are informative and entertaining...I would hate to see the discussion end. They are both obviously intelligent, though they have their own styles of argument. It is understandable that Ian does not want to criticize his own school; yet I also believe that one has to be able to look at his own school objectively and make concessions when they are warranted. Not everyone has read his criticisms of UBC (I for one, have not, although I would really like to know an insider's take on UBC's flaws). And, after all, most med students have only studied at one medical school, and should not assume that it is necessarily the best.

 

As for thewonderer, his points are good, though they could be put in a less inflammatory way. It is definitely frustrating to have only half your questions answered after you have taken the time to post them....and the only way to get them answered may be to stubbornly post them again. One message that answers all the questions is better than 10 that only answer 10%.

 

Sorry for the preachy post but I felt it is needed!!

[Guest MS1]

By wanting to know the flaws of UBC I meant actually I would like to get an objective view of UBC medical school...but since I've heard much of the good already (thanks Ian), it would be good to hear from the other side....

[Guest Thewonderer]

To YongQ

I don't understand this evidence thing you talked about. There is no hard evidence because admissions is done behind closed doors. But I use stories and people I know PERSONALLY and that are TRUE, and then with the help of the "official" numbers published by UBC med, I came out with my statements. In all honesty, I don't know as a moderator you or Ian know more about admissions than I do. Maybe, maybe not.

But I know people personally who have gotten into Penn, Yale, UWO, Wash U in St. Louis, U of Hawaii, Albert Einstein, U of Alberta, etc. etc. etc. on both sides of the border and who did not get into UBC med. And in the end, I see a pattern. Why is it impossible to believe? Just because you don't see it?

I understand Ian has his own things to take care of. I stayed civil. I don't know who started criticizing whose way of posting. uhm...

 

To Spiderman,

Thanks for your input. Wonderful insight. Appreciate it.

[Guest YongQ]

Thewonderer,

 

What evidence do you have to suggest that UBC's rejection of people like your friends doesn't happen at every school in Canada?

 

YONGQ

[Guest brat]

For someone who is "supposedly" (take that whatever way you want) in their clinical year you seem to post a lot of messages throughout the day... perhaps you should spend more time with your patients.

 

"brat"

Win Church Class 96

[Guest eh]

I don't know if he'll want me to say this, but I feel like I should put in a word. I personally know thewonderer, and he is in fact in his clinical year in a fantastic medical school. And he did not apply to UBC. He's just upset at UBC admissions for the significant number of his friends who got rejected from UBC...and I should know, cuz I am one of these rejected friends =)

[Guest hey2]

I just checked out the link BCgirl posted for the UBC med 2000-2001 acceptance statistics and found it pretty interesting. It seems that UBC rejected more students than they accepted from the GPA 80%-100% categories, and accepted more students than they rejected from the GPA 75%-79.99% categories. That's quite a surprise....as a graduate from UBC, it really isn't that difficult to get an 80%+ average (or so it seems at least in the biochem department).

[Guest yo]

I, too, would like to put in a word for thewonderer. Just because he is in his clinical year doesn't mean he cannot spend a lot of time on the computer. Take Ian for example, he is also in his clinical year, and he seems to spend a lot of time on the computer too, being the moderator of the website and all...........

[Guest BC guy]

To the Wonderer:

I am one of the statistics that got rejected at UBC with a 99% average, and excellent MCAT. I have many awards from UBC and my extracurriculars are good including student governance. But b/c of your previous info all along on this message board, the rejection was not a complete surprise to me; so thanks for preparing me for it.

Best to you in your studies.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Computers always was a hobby for me. Running this website is a good distraction from my clinical duties.

 

hey2,<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> It seems that UBC rejected more students than they accepted from the GPA 80%-100% categories, and accepted more students than they rejected from the GPA 75%-79.99% categories. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> www.premed101.com/stats.html#OALAverage

www.premed101.com/stats.html#Rejected

 

Where are you getting this from? Here's the 2001 stats, first accepted, then rejected. The rejecteds are the in-province applicants only:

 

90 - 100.0% 3:7

85 - 89.99% 30:45

80 - 84.99% 58:141

75 - 79.99% 33:179

70 - 74.99% 4:60

 

I wish I could get the columns to line up neater, but the numbers are clear. Statistically, your chances of getting an acceptance letter are quite good if your marks are anywhere between 80-100%, and drop off dramatically once your grade dip below 80%. Makes sense if you believe that an applicant with an 80% average has the mental ability to succeed in medical school.

 

The bottom line here is that thewonderer and I disagree very fundamentally here. I don't believe in a UBC conspiracy. Period. I think his "evidence" to the contrary, which is nothing more than anecdotal, is pretty weak. If you look at the UBC classses individually, you'll see a huge amount of diversity in terms of age, race, culture, previous academic background, travel experiences, etc. I know for a fact that the admissions committee functions AS A COMMITTEE. One person does not have the ability to advance a personal agenda and select out certain students. Again, I don't see a UBC conspiracy here.

 

I also don't see that the academic and non-academic sides of the application process have to be 50:50 throughout the entire application. There is an understanding in most admissions processes that marks and numbers get you to the interview, and your interview then gets you the acceptance letter. Therefore, marks and then your non-academic side could both be crucially important, yet at DIFFERENT points along the admissions process. From my logic, it does not necessarily follow that having very high marks allows you have a proportionately shoddier interview while still getting you an acceptance.

 

Rather, it seems to me that having really high marks will probably get you the interview. What you do from that point on determines your acceptance status. This to me also fits in with the idea that academics above a given threshold are a flag and that applicants who are above that threshold will do well in medical school.

 

Don't forget that while the MCAT score is used as a flag, that UBC students still average about a 30 overall, which is essentially the same as most other North American schools. Just because we don't emphasize MCAT scores like most US med schools doesn't mean that our med students didn't perform strongly on it regardless.

 

Like many other med students, I don't subscribe to the fact that a person with a 4.0 GPA/38 MCAT is automatically going to be a better med student than one with a 3.8 GPA /30 MCAT. In fact, based on sheer numbers, I'm sure that I can find more 3.8 GPA /30 MCAT students with a wider range of interesting non-academic backgrounds, than I can of 4.0 GPA/38 MCAT students.

 

I also don't see the correlation between undergrad marks and clerkship performance, which thewonderer seems to believe in. That's a bogus link if I ever heard of one. I think that outside interests and the ability to work well with others is hugely more important, and I think that the interview (while not perfect) is a better screen for these qualifications.

 

Therefore, it should come as no surprise that I believe the interview is far more important for med school acceptances once a minimum competancy threshold has been established via GPA and MCAT scores. If I had my way to run admissions, I'd set the GPA and MCAT score thresholds similarly, and figure out some way of spying on applicants to see how they interacted with people on a regular day. (ie. seeing how they react in traffic when they get cut off, what they do when the waiter accidentally spills a drink on them, how do they respond to a panhandler, what do they do when dealing with a rude boss, co-worker, or a customer, etc). Since this is obviously impractical, the interview is the next-best screening tool.

 

I think it's perfectly valid to reject someone with very high MCAT and GPA scores if that person's non-academic side isn't as strong as another applicant.

 

thewonderer,

 

So why don't you lay out the "pattern" black and white right out. Are you saying that Asians are unfairly discriminated against? Or that you somehow need to be French-speaking if you are indeed an Asian applicant? You've hinted at these beliefs in the past; why don't you go right out and state your suspicions. I'd rather you get your objections out in the open, and if the objections aren't valid, as I feel they aren't then that's that.

 

Finally, why don't you post your name and medical school? Clearly, you are in medical school, and UBC has no influence over your medical career. I like to know who I'm arguing with, and I think it's rather conspicuous that you consistently refuse to supply your identity. Particularly in light of the fact that you're going to be a doctor, presumably matching through the NRMP, neither of which will be influenced by showing your name and medical school.

 

Any further replies should go to this more appropriate thread in the UBC forum.

 

pub125.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm14.showMessage?topicID=183.topic

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3