International Medical Graudates Trying to Return

[rswim]

No one in America wants to come here, but a lot of Canadians wish they could go to the States.

 

Oh how Wong you are on that one. Try talking to anyone in primary are Lifestyle is way better in Canada for anyone in family IM +\- emerg

[leviathan]

Oh how Wong you are on that one. Try talking to anyone in primary are Lifestyle is way better in Canada for anyone in family IM +\- emerg

I thought we were talking about coming to Canada for residency, not to work after residency. Also LOL @ what I think was your autocorrect.

[rswim]

I thought we were talking about coming to Canada for residency, not to work after residency. Also LOL @ what I think was your autocorrect.

 

Agh yea my bad on the autocorrect and topic of that response

[leviathan]

Agh yea my bad on the autocorrect and topic of that response

 

No one in America wants to come here, but a lot of Canadians wish they could go to the States.

I actually know lots of Americans that want to come here as rswim mentioned. Better pay and working conditions for family docs. There is a net brain gain to Canada for the past few years.

[Guest LeCreuset]

I agree with you somewhat having gone to Brown University, the bottom of the barrel in terms of Ivy League "rankings" but I can almost guarantee you that you get a better undergraduate education than any of the big name big research Ivys where you spend most of your first two years being taught by TAs instead of profs. That being said, US news does have a ranking for primary care medical schools, which more accurately reflects clinical prowess instead of research.

 

Gongshow definitely made some inflammatory arrogant statements, but I think he is probably right about some schools being in a completely different ballpark. Its one thing to debate about whether or not UW (#1 in primary care) is better than Harvard medical school, but an entirely different argument if you want to compare Ross or St. Georges to UCSF or UMass for example.

 

I feel you on the rankings thing though, I always took a lot of abuse from my HYPe (Harvard Princeton Yale) friends about "the rankings".

 

With good right. We don't have the option of taking hard courses for pass/fail. It is wrong of you to say HYP is inferior in any way in terms of education or availability of opportunities for undergraduates on campus. I encourage you to apply to study as a visiting student and see for yourself. Princeton is especially known for the rigor and quality of its undergraduate education.

 

With that being said, the gov't subsidized med school for CMGs, they want their money back and guarantee them residencies and first pick, why are you complaining? Because its 'unfair'? Are you aware of how unfair it is for anyone looking to get into any competitive position in North America?

 

Investment banks take top 10% at Ivey, which in turn requires a 90% in high school and 80% in university to stay in. Consulting firms won't even look at you if your not top 5 in your class if your school isn't Ivy or equivalent. Some law firms take only the top 10% at Harvard law, which has a ~5% acceptance rate. Life's not fair, work hard or get out.

[gongshow]

With good right. We don't have the option of taking hard courses for pass/fail. It is wrong of you to say HYP is inferior in any way in terms of education or availability of opportunities for undergraduates on campus. I encourage you to apply to study as a visiting student and see for yourself. Princeton is especially known for the rigor and quality of its undergraduate education.

 

With that being said, the gov't subsidized med school for CMGs, they want their money back and guarantee them residencies and first pick, why are you complaining? Because its 'unfair'? Are you aware of how unfair it is for anyone looking to get into any competitive position in North America?

 

Investment banks take top 10% at Ivey, which in turn requires a 90% in high school and 80% in university to stay in. Consulting firms won't even look at you if your not top 5 in your class if your school isn't Ivy or equivalent. Some law firms take only the top 10% at Harvard law, which has a ~5% acceptance rate. Life's not fair, work hard or get out.

 

Again, you are talking about very minor difference when comparing across Ivy league schools, they are all excellent and have their own list of pros and cons. I agree with you 100% though, its a tough world and people need to suck it up and realize that. If you couldn't get into a Cdn medical school or a top 25 US school then you probably should take a long hard look in the mirror and realize that maybe there is a reason for that. This isn't meant to put down other healthcare professions, but perhaps these people should become nurses or techs etc. These are still rewarding jobs. The sense of entitlement that a lot of CSAs have is frustrating.

 

Arguing which Ivy league school is the best is like arguing which NHL team is the best, comparing these schools to Caribbean schools is like comparing an NHL team to TimBits hockey.

[Robin Hood]

Again, you are talking about very minor difference when comparing across Ivy league schools, they are all excellent and have their own list of pros and cons. I agree with you 100% though, its a tough world and people need to suck it up and realize that. If you couldn't get into a Cdn medical school or a top 25 US school then you probably should take a long hard look in the mirror and realize that maybe there is a reason for that. This isn't meant to put down other healthcare professions, but perhaps these people should become nurses or techs etc. These are still rewarding jobs. The sense of entitlement that a lot of CSAs have is frustrating.

 

Arguing which Ivy league school is the best is like arguing which NHL team is the best, comparing these schools to Caribbean schools is like comparing an NHL team to TimBits hockey.

 

Why should you be in one of the top 25 US schools to be a doctor? Why do you think accredition exists and is availible to all med schools in the US? Also, who told you that all canadian med school are comparable to the top 25 US schools? moo talked in an earlier post about 3 CANADIAN med schools being on accredition probation, like USaks. Also, no one coimpared the caribbean schools to Ivy League.

Oh and by the way, since I hear you saying that having a school only admits people with perfect GPAs as meaning that this school is the best, McGill admits people with 3.5 (and maybe less, I think someone here was admitted with a 3.3) if they are IP, for them, outstanding and exceptional ECs can make up for a low GPA, and McGill is ranked 17 (or 19th) in the world.

[cclawfjj]

leviathan,

 

I don't see MIT On the medical school rankings on US World Report & News. Please do not make up stuff like that to bolster your argument.

[Guest LeCreuset]

Again, you are talking about very minor difference when comparing across Ivy league schools, they are all excellent and have their own list of pros and cons. I agree with you 100% though, its a tough world and people need to suck it up and realize that. If you couldn't get into a Cdn medical school or a top 25 US school then you probably should take a long hard look in the mirror and realize that maybe there is a reason for that. This isn't meant to put down other healthcare professions, but perhaps these people should become nurses or techs etc. These are still rewarding jobs. The sense of entitlement that a lot of CSAs have is frustrating.

 

Arguing which Ivy league school is the best is like arguing which NHL team is the best, comparing these schools to Caribbean schools is like comparing an NHL team to TimBits hockey.

 

I agree in terms of career opportunities and quality of education although they are comparable in other respects. Cornell's campus is really depressing in the winter... Snow everywhere.. I was just agitated by the person who was implying my alma mater was bad

 

Dartmouth is pretty in the fall though.

[Guest LeCreuset]

leviathan,

 

I don't see MIT On the medical school rankings on US World Report & News. Please do not make up stuff like that to bolster your argument.

 

Because MIT medical is actually Harvard Medical, true story.

[gongshow]

Why should you be in one of the top 25 US schools to be a doctor? Why do you think accredition exists and is availible to all med schools in the US? Also, who told you that all canadian med school are comparable to the top 25 US schools? moo talked in an earlier post about 3 CANADIAN med schools being on accredition probation, like USaks. Also, no one coimpared the caribbean schools to Ivy League.

Oh and by the way, since I hear you saying that having a school only admits people with perfect GPAs as meaning that this school is the best, McGill admits people with 3.5 (and maybe less, I think someone here was admitted with a 3.3) if they are IP, for them, outstanding and exceptional ECs can make up for a low GPA, and McGill is ranked 17 (or 19th) in the world.

 

You clearly have no idea how admissions work at world class institutions do you. I never said anything about schools admitting only people with perfect GPAs. Ivy league and other top institutions consider the entire applicant, grades, extra-curriculars, life experiences etc etc. There are lots of people with imperfect GPAs ad top medical schools across Canada and the US. There is a correlation between ability and GPA yes, and therefore the AVERAGE student at the best schools will have excellent GPAs along with amazing extra currics and life experiences etc. but it is by no means required that you have perfect grades (with the exception of a few Canadian medical schools for out of province people where the min GPA cut off is quite high).

 

In fact it is the schools that are trying to make a buck off of desperate CSAs (Carib and Aussie etc) that base the entire application off of grades. In Australia they don't even have interviews for IMGs or an application essay, the only requirement for admission is a very low GPA/MCAT cutoffs and the ability to fill out a two page application form with biographical information.

 

I know it is tough for those who are rejected from top schools that they have a very sophisticated well developed and relatively fair admissions process, but they do. It is much easier to just look at the incredibly high average GPA and say "you have to have a perfect GPA its just so unfair woe is me!!"

[gongshow]

"I didn't get into a Canadian medical or a top 25 US medical school, therefore I should give up on my dreams and goals in life"

 

Such great attitude you're trying to promote, Bravo.

 

Not at all what I said. The attitude a winner would take is "I didn't get into a top medical school, what can I do to further bolster my application for next year, maybe a few more volunteer experiences, maybe some work experience or perhaps even a masters or PhD. I want this so bad I'm willing to do what it takes." Instead of the attitude of a whiner "Woe is me, I didn't get in, Daddy can I have 200 grand to go to an international school so I can avoid having to wait a few years and put in the work and effort required to get in at home".

[leviathan]

leviathan,

 

I don't see MIT On the medical school rankings on US World Report & News. Please do not make up stuff like that to bolster your argument.

 

cclawfjj,

 

I don't remember referring to the US World Report & News. Please do not make strawman attacks to bolster your argument.

 

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011/subject-rankings/life-sciences/medicine

[Guest LeCreuset]

cclawfjj,

 

I don't remember referring to the US World Report & News. Please do not make strawman attacks to bolster your argument.

 

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011/subject-rankings/life-sciences/medicine

 

That's for medical research and post graduate education. MIT does not award MDs, they have a joint MD/PhD with Harvard Medical who awards the MD.

[futureGP]

i say, US world report prob has the best ranking system for US schools (petty legit criteria separating research and primary care)

[dy727]

MCCQE annual report

http://www.mcc.ca/pdf/annual_report_2010_en.pdf page 24

 

2010

MCCEE pass rate --> 86%

 

MCCQE Part 1 first time pass rate

CMG --> 98%

IMG --> 62%

 

MCCQE Part 2 first time pass rate

CPG --> 93%

IPG (IMG + at least 1 year postgrad finished outside of canada) --> 48%!

MPG (graduated internationally but at least 1 year postgrad in Canada) --> 72%

[Ricey]

If you are being trained in a well-established non-Canadian commonwealth country why is it assumed that the medical degree received is not equivalent to what would have been taught here in Canada?

 

I take offence to the notion that anyone studying abroad is doing it because they just "couldn't cut it". To be honest, I really wonder at the age of some of these members when judgements are so strong and knowledge so lacking.

 

Studying abroad can be a fantastic experience, one certainly not gained from staying home to study. Keep in mind I'm referring only to the quality of education here. I know of Canadians who got into McGill Med, among others, and have chosen to still study abroad.

 

Talk about closed-mindedness. And then people wonder where all of the hostility towards IMGs come from. A mix of arrogance and jealousy perhaps.

[futureGP]

yeah, it's cool to go abroad. But it's sorta dumb if you know you're gonna come back for residency, cause you'll find it difficult to come back...

 

heck if you're gonna live in australia --> australian med school might be better.

[Ricey]

MCCQE annual report

http://www.mcc.ca/pdf/annual_report_2010_en.pdf page 24

 

2010

MCCEE pass rate --> 86%

 

MCCQE Part 1 first time pass rate

CMG --> 98%

IMG --> 62%

 

MCCQE Part 2 first time pass rate

CPG --> 93%

IPG (IMG + at least 1 year postgrad finished outside of canada) --> 48%!

MPG (graduated internationally but at least 1 year postgrad in Canada) --> 72%

 

The report says that the MCCQE Part I is offered in over 50 countries. These report statistics would be more helpful if they also broke down the pass/fail rates by country.

[Ricey]

yeah, it's cool to go abroad. But it's sorta dumb if you know you're gonna come back for residency, cause you'll find it difficult to come back...

 

heck if you're gonna live in australia --> australian med school might be better.

 

In terms of residency, yes I agree it's harder to come back, but not impossible. The reality is that you will end up working with physicians trained all over the world, and these elitist notions will only set yourself up for a poor rapport with them. From my personal experience some of the most knowledgeable specialists I have ever encountered have actually been trained in Portugal, Spain, and Italy.

[gongshow]

If you are being trained in a well-established non-Canadian commonwealth country why is it assumed that the medical degree received is not equivalent to what would have been taught here in Canada?

 

I take offence to the notion that anyone studying abroad is doing it because they just "couldn't cut it". To be honest, I really wonder at the age of some of these members when judgements are so strong and knowledge so lacking.

 

Studying abroad can be a fantastic experience, one certainly not gained from staying home to study. Keep in mind I'm referring only to the quality of education here. I know of Canadians who got into McGill Med, among others, and have chosen to still study abroad.

 

Talk about closed-mindedness. And then people wonder where all of the hostility towards IMGs come from. A mix of arrogance and jealousy perhaps.

 

I think it has been fairly well established in the blogs that CMG have no problems with those who chose to go elsewhere for the opportunity (aka wen to very prestigious well regarded Universities where they competed WITH everyone to get in (did not have their own separate International admissions category)) These students have ample opportunities and the world is their oyster, these aren't the students that are kicking up a fuss about being allowed back to Canada.

 

The students that people are concerned about are the ones who went to schools that had far lower standards to get into. The students that tried once or twice to get into a Canadian School and gave up on it to go elsewhere. These by and large are the students that are kicking up a sh storm in the media and at the gov't level by writing to their MLAs etc. These are the ones that wanted to take a short cut, that went to international schools because they couldn't hack it here.

 

Ireland, Australia and the Caribbean will accept anyone and their dog if they are willing to pay! International experience is a great thing, but do it when you are an undergrad or during a masters program etc. This will help you get into a Canadian medical school. Don't expect to join in our medical education halfway through. The backdoor that currently exists is there to fill a physician shortage in certain specialties in certain geographical regions, it should remain for this purpose only. World class scholars, and physicians who are fully trained should be welcomed back into the country with open arms once they have completed their training based on merit!

 

The reality is it doesn't matter why people went to these international schools, I suspect that the majority of them went because they couldn't get in at home, but i have no facts or numbers to confirm this, just my own experience with a cohort of >100 CSAs studying in Australia. Regardless, it doesn't matter if it was because of inability, lack of effort, personal circumstances, flip of a coin.... These people chose (or were forced or whatever) to go to international schools and in doing so they must now face the reality that it will be very difficult for them to come back to Canada unless they are willing to fill in the gaps. If they weren't fully informed of the situation when they chose to leave then shame on them for lack of foresight.

[gongshow]

MCCQE annual report

http://www.mcc.ca/pdf/annual_report_2010_en.pdf page 24

 

2010

MCCEE pass rate --> 86%

 

MCCQE Part 1 first time pass rate

CMG --> 98%

IMG --> 62%

 

MCCQE Part 2 first time pass rate

CPG --> 93%

IPG (IMG + at least 1 year postgrad finished outside of canada) --> 48%!

MPG (graduated internationally but at least 1 year postgrad in Canada) --> 72%

 

Still think the public should be supporting and PAYING for IMGs to have postgraduate training spots? Got to love it when someone finally brings in some facts! Well done!!

 

Nobody on this blog has once suggested that all IMGs can't cut it, thats just not true, some are exceptional, but you can't change policy based on exceptions. When the avg IMG starts performing better than CMG then this debate might have value (and the Canadian medical education system should have a long hard look in the mirror to figure out what went wrong).

[bloh]

Why do these threads keep popping up? The limiting factor are the residency positions because the number of medical students that can be trained on an international basis is unlimited.

 

There's no other solution but to cap the IMG positions.

[tupacandbiggie]

If you are being trained in a well-established non-Canadian commonwealth country why is it assumed that the medical degree received is not equivalent to what would have been taught here in Canada?

 

I take offence to the notion that anyone studying abroad is doing it because they just "couldn't cut it". To be honest, I really wonder at the age of some of these members when judgements are so strong and knowledge so lacking.

 

Studying abroad can be a fantastic experience, one certainly not gained from staying home to study. Keep in mind I'm referring only to the quality of education here. I know of Canadians who got into McGill Med, among others, and have chosen to still study abroad.

 

Talk about closed-mindedness. And then people wonder where all of the hostility towards IMGs come from. A mix of arrogance and jealousy perhaps.

 

If we r gonna use personal anecdote then you know one person that gave up Mcgill's spot to go study abroad lets assuming it's true, then I know at least 10 people who have no chance in hell to make it into any canadian med schools and went off to the Caribbeans. Also most of my premed friends know a bunch of these as well but non of us know of anyone that actually chose international over Canadian schools.

 

ps: when I say international i exclude the good schools in the states, I do know people that chose to go to Harvard over USASK for example (I would too). Another simple question is to ask yourself if u were accepted into a Canadian school would u study in the Caribbeans, Australia, or Ireland instead?

[Kasiunut]

If we r gonna use personal anecdote then you know one person that gave up Mcgill's spot to go study abroad lets assuming it's true, then I know at least 10 people who have no chance in hell to make it into any canadian med schools and went off to the Caribbeans. Also most of my premed friends know a bunch of these as well but non of us know of anyone that actually chose international over Canadian schools.

 

ps: when I say international i exclude the good schools in the states, I do know people that chose to go to Harvard over USASK for example (I would too). Another simple question is to ask yourself if u were accepted into a Canadian school would u study in the Caribbeans, Australia, or Ireland instead?

 

As someone who is strongly contemplating Australia, I have to say I'm doing it for a mixture of reasons.

 

1) I can get permanent residency status there, so after I'm done school I can do residency and work there.

2) I want to do family medicine and even if I do the family med program there, I can come back to Canada as a family doctor without redoing Canadian residency.

3) I'm old (27) and don't want to wait the 2.7 average attempts it might take me to get into a Canadian university.

4) I don't have all the pre-requisites required so I'm limited in the universities I can apply to in Canada - thus decreasing my chances even more

5) Even though, yes, applying as an international my being slightly easier, in Australia, for example there are only like 20 spots per university for ALL international students -including USA, Asia etc.

6) There is also a standard to get in - at least in Australia - there are minimum GPAs, MCAT scores etc.

 

With many of my reasons, I'm sure there will be people saying, well, you SHOULD put in the time/effort to get the prerequisites, build up the ECs etc...and they may be right.

 

However, I would pick any Canadian university I got into over an Australian one if I get into both. But I'm going to apply to them at the same time and honestly, wherever I get into first is where I'll go.