International Medical Graudates Trying to Return

[rswim]

I don't think that's an issue; everyone should have an equal opportunity at the IMG positions available. For many reasons, immigrant IMGs are rarely competitive enough to give Canadian IMGs a problem during CaRMS anyway, so I don't think anyone sees it as a problem.

 

Hmm interesting. I know a few very competitive foreign IMGs. I agree with you though it should b a competition and to the victor goes the spoils.

[dokrbb]

Hmm interesting. I know a few very competitive foreign IMGs. I agree with you though it should b a competition and to the victor goes the spoils.

 

no, no, no,

 

anyway, these IMGs are NOT as competitive as CSA IMGs, just because they are from underdeveloped countries- what do they know, they don't have even Internet yet...

 

these IMGs represent for the IMG pool the same as CSA IMG represent for Canadian graduates,... like second from the second (if such expression exists )...,

 

they should be happy just to be allowed to come here, and the luckiest of them, maybe, could give you a coffee at the nearest depanneur, when you, in a hurry, walk in, on your way of saving lives in the most professional manner

 

...and may be I should add pathetically, something about human rights, but I will leave that to my hosts, they are so good at that

[concernedmedstudent]

no, no, no,

 

anyway, these IMGs are NOT as competitive as CSA IMGs, just because they are from underdeveloped countries- what do they know, they don't have even Internet yet...

 

these IMGs represent for the IMG pool the same as CSA IMG represent for Canadian graduates,... like second from the second (if such expression exists )...,

 

they should be happy just to be allowed to come here, and the luckiest of them, maybe, could give you a coffee at the nearest depanneur, when you, in a hurry, walk in, on your way of saving lives in the most professional manner

 

...and may be I should add pathetically, something about human rights, but I will leave that to my hosts, they are so good at that

 

That was incredibly racist. Some of these IMGs come from countries like Australia where in general they are far superior to the International students that have been let into their schools in order to help fund their education.

[dokrbb]

That was incredibly racist. Some of these IMGs come from countries like Australia where in general they are far superior to the International students that have been let into their schools in order to help fund their education.

 

it wasn't racist at all, It IS sarcastic - I am an IMG, and from an "underdeveloped" (I am pretty sure this term is more than vague to be used as a label in all directions...) country, and I really have fun watching this thread

 

find it .....hmm...instructive

[concernedmedstudent]

it wasn't racist at all, It IS sarcastic - I am an IMG, and from an "underdeveloped" (I am pretty sure this term is more than vague to be used as a label in all directions...) country, and I really have fun watching this thread

 

my bad, missed the sarcasm there. It is an entertaining thread for sure. It would be interesting to hear what the overall impression is of practicing physicians (not related to IMGs). The UBC Faculty statement (posted prominently on their website) was well written albeit very mild so as not to offend anyone.

[leviathan]

it wasn't racist at all, It IS sarcastic - I am an IMG, and from an "underdeveloped" (I am pretty sure this term is more than vague to be used as a label in all directions...) country, and I really have fun watching this thread

 

find it .....hmm...instructive

 

Just in case my post was misconstrued as 'racist' - the main reason that immigrant IMGs are not competitive is that most have been out of medical practice for years - sometimes decades. That puts them at a huge disadvantage compared to a fresh medical grad who is ready for residency.

[concernedmedstudent]

Just in case my post was misconstrued as 'racist' - the main reason that immigrant IMGs are not competitive is that most have been out of medical practice for years - sometimes decades. That puts them at a huge disadvantage compared to a fresh medical grad who is ready for residency.

 

Its kind of funny how that works eh? If you are an experienced physician with lots of practice in clinical medicine, you are likely going to be less competitive than a total newb with some book smarts. It is true, just kind of strange

[preppy038]

Its kind of funny how that works eh? If you are an experienced physician with lots of practice in clinical medicine, you are likely going to be less competitive than a total newb with some book smarts. It is true, just kind of strange

 

lol true....

 

which is why some sort of a transitioning program for immigrant doctors might be a better shot (where they just assess that their qualifications are good enough to practise).

 

 

with the residency issue, it could sorta make sense that you want younger docs who will practise for ~50 years? vs. 30 years etc.... idk

[dokrbb]

my bad, missed the sarcasm there. It is an entertaining thread for sure. It would be interesting to hear what the overall impression is of practicing physicians (not related to IMGs). The UBC Faculty statement (posted prominently on their website) was well written albeit very mild so as not to offend anyone.

 

don't think would be as interesting, and this thread is a prove - people that are less or not ta all in contact with the IMGs are more subjective, and tend to generalize the facts, as a result, the opinions are biased ( we don't even have such a word in my country), those that contacted with the very different categories of IMGs, or represent this "medical minority" are more or less objective

 

I just wonder... would someone change his mind about IMGs (doesn't matter to the better or the worse attitude ) after reading and/or writing on this thread, or it represents just a competition of something like "whose claims are louder", or "whose comments represented IMGs in the MOST stupid way, using the MOST polite expressions"

[dokrbb]

Just in case my post was misconstrued as 'racist' - the main reason that immigrant IMGs are not competitive is that most have been out of medical practice for years - sometimes decades. That puts them at a huge disadvantage compared to a fresh medical grad who is ready for residency.

 

oh, it's about the years out of practice than, and I thought that the main reasons (it's just me that find strange using the plural with the "main") were, a little bit earlier on this thread, language skills, or difference in diseases, or...something else

 

and I am not even sure that these doctors that are out of practice for decades, as you state, are thinking about passing all the exams, ...

 

thanks for enlightenment

[gongshow]

don't think would be as interesting, and this thread is a prove - people that are less or not ta all in contact with the IMGs are more subjective, and tend to generalize the facts, as a result, the opinions are biased ( we don't even have such a word in my country), those that contacted with the very different categories of IMGs, or represent this "medical minority" are more or less objective

 

I just wonder... would someone change his mind about IMGs (doesn't matter to the better or the worse attitude ) after reading and/or writing on this thread, or it represents just a competition of something like "whose claims are louder", or "whose comments represented IMGs in the MOST stupid way, using the MOST polite expressions"

 

There is really only one side that has presented any facts at all in this thread, and those came from the CARMS website. This blog is probably more representative of the true feeling people have. The media so far has been predominantly one sided in favor of IMGs. Why? As it has been stated multiple times...they have used their power and MOOLA to hire a professional public relations marketing firm to strategically get their message out there. Also, Cdn medical students are a self selected group of polite, considerate and politically correct people who don't want to offend anyone for better or worse. So if it comes to a battle of who can yell the loudest I think the self righteous entitled IMGs are going to win the battle. Lets hope it doesn't come to this and we put patient safety ahead of selfishness!

[leviathan]

Its kind of funny how that works eh? If you are an experienced physician with lots of practice in clinical medicine, you are likely going to be less competitive than a total newb with some book smarts. It is true, just kind of strange

I guess the main thing physicians involved in training IMGs have noticed is that those who are far distanced from practice rapidly lose their competency. Also the way we do things has also changed in the last 20 years especially with the introduction of EBM.

 

oh, it's about the years out of practice than, and I thought that the main reasons (it's just me that find strange using the plural with the "main") were, a little bit earlier on this thread, language skills, or difference in diseases, or...something else

 

and I am not even sure that these doctors that are out of practice for decades, as you state, are thinking about passing all the exams, ...

 

thanks for enlightenment

Absolutely. English proficiency is also one of the most important factors for IMG selection that causes foreign IMGs to be at a disadvantage. I never said anything related to differences in diseases, so you should read more carefully before you try to attack me about that. I'm not sure what you meant by doctors thinking about passing all the exams.

 

At any rate, if you want an example of what Canadian residency programs are looking for in IMG residents, see CaRMS for more detail:

https://w1c.e-carms.ca/pdws2012R1-1/jsp/pd.do?p=504013&f=1&m=1 You'll notice that many of these factors put immigrant IMGs at a disadvantage.

 

Preference may be given to candidates:

-With demonstrated academic achievement

-Who are recent graduates from Medical School or an advanced training program

-Who demonstrate proficiency in English

-Who have participated in an IMG screening process

-Who demonstrate an interest in and knowledge of the Canadian Health Care System

[dokrbb]

There is really only one side that has presented any facts at all in this thread, and those came from the CARMS website. This blog is probably more representative of the true feeling people have. The media so far has been predominantly one sided in favor of IMGs. Why? As it has been stated multiple times...they have used their power and MOOLA to hire a professional public relations marketing firm to strategically get their message out there. Also, Cdn medical students are a self selected group of polite, considerate and politically correct people who don't want to offend anyone for better or worse. So if it comes to a battle of who can yell the loudest I think the self righteous entitled IMGs are going to win the battle. Lets hope it doesn't come to this and we put patient safety ahead of selfishness!

 

and again... this impenetrable politeness,

 

I really appreciate it, still I would like to point out that, even if the term IMG is used for all, CSA IMGs and simply IMGs (from above mentioned, underdeveloped countries) are two completely different categories, with completely different attitudes toward medicine in general, and they motivation to practice, in particular(I just expect here some politically correct comments about their professionalism too ), the latter category would be happy even to obtain an observership while passing the exams, but wait, there are few reasons for which they are disadvantaged, and all of them are in the "main" category,

 

I am not sure if these IMGs (the simple ones) are even aware about what "public relations marketing" means

 

I hope though the politeness and correctness would be constructive as well

[Robin Hood]

lol true....

 

which is why some sort of a transitioning program for immigrant doctors might be a better shot (where they just assess that their qualifications are good enough to practise).

 

 

with the residency issue, it could sorta make sense that you want younger docs who will practise for ~50 years? vs. 30 years etc.... idk

 

Yes, that would be a good thing, I think Quebec is thinking of this, and I think France has something like this. Also, Quebec schools have IMG spots for the MD. Also, a transitional program could help them gain Canadian experience, which could be useful for residency application.

[dokrbb]

 

Absolutely. English proficiency is also one of the most important factors for IMG selection that causes foreign IMGs to be at a disadvantage. I never said anything related to differences in diseases, so you should read more carefully before you try to attack me about that. I'm not sure what you meant by doctors thinking about passing all the exams.

 

At any rate, if you want an example of what Canadian residency programs are looking for in IMG residents, see CaRMS for more detail:

https://w1c.e-carms.ca/pdws2012R1-1/jsp/pd.do?p=504013&f=1&m=1 You'll notice that many of these factors put immigrant IMGs at a disadvantage.

 

Preference may be given to candidates:

-With demonstrated academic achievement

-Who are recent graduates from Medical School or an advanced training program

-Who demonstrate proficiency in English

-Who have participated in an IMG screening process

-Who demonstrate an interest in and knowledge of the Canadian Health Care System

 

my point about doctors waiting for decades was that they don't even think about passing the LMCC exams, they have another priorities: to find a job (whatever job), to keep the job in order to pay college for they kids, to terrorize their kids to go to medicine in Canada(like, living the life through the life of their children), ....and so on...

 

and my comment didn't intend to criticize your post in particular, but the overall variation in opinions from one post to another, trying to emphasize the grain of subjectivity out there, anyway...

 

oh, and thanks for the link, you opened my eyes...

 

and the arguments there are so... how to say... precise, explicit, and exhaustive, ... yah

[gongshow]

and again... this impenetrable politeness,

 

I really appreciate it, still I would like to point out that, even if the term IMG is used for all, CSA IMGs and simply IMGs (from above mentioned, underdeveloped countries) are two completely different categories, with completely different attitudes toward medicine in general, and they motivation to practice, in particular(I just expect here some politically correct comments about their professionalism too ), the latter category would be happy even to obtain an observership while passing the exams, but wait, there are few reasons for which they are disadvantaged, and all of them are in the "main" category,

 

I am not sure if these IMGs (the simple ones) are even aware about what "public relations marketing" means

 

I hope though the politeness and correctness would be constructive as well

 

The UBC faculty has officially chosen not discriminate or differentiate between CSAs and IMGs. In their eyes an IMG is and IMG regardless of where they are from. They recognize that the term exists and speak of CSAs in their report, but have communicated to UBC students that they do not look differently upon any IMGs.

[leviathan]

my point about doctors waiting for decades was that they don't even think about passing the LMCC exams, they have another priorities: to find a job (whatever job), to keep the job in order to pay college for they kids, to terrorize their kids to go to medicine in Canada(like, living the life through the life of their children), ....and so on...

 

and my comment didn't intend to criticize your post in particular, but the overall variation in opinions from one post to another, trying to emphasize the grain of subjectivity out there, anyway...

 

oh, and thanks for the link, you opened my eyes...

 

and the arguments there are so... how to say... precise, explicit, and exhaustive, ... yah

Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, it must be very difficult for immigrant doctors to find the resources to write these exams. Even to pay for them is very costly. I believe I paid $1500 for the MCCEE, in addition to thousands of dollars for the US exams.

[dokrbb]

The UBC faculty has officially chosen not discriminate or differentiate between CSAs and IMGs. In their eyes an IMG is and IMG regardless of where they are from. They recognize that the term exists and speak of CSAs in their report, but have communicated to UBC students that they do not look differently upon any IMGs.

 

...except during the selection process for residency, right?

 

agree

[gongshow]

...except during the selection process for residency, right?

 

agree

 

From what I have heard, they will not discriminate between IMGs for residency selection. If one person is better qualified they will get the spot, that just might happen to be CSAs as they are likely to fulfill some of the criteria previously mentioned in the blog. But overall, they will not be given special consideration. At least this is what the CMGs studying at UBC have been told.

[medisforme]

...except during the selection process for residency, right?

 

agree

 

My understanding is that a lot of the new IMG residency spots opening up at UBC are specifically for BC residents.

 

http://imgbc.med.ubc.ca/imgbc-eligibility-criteria/

[dokrbb]

Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, it must be very difficult for immigrant doctors to find the resources to write these exams. Even to pay for them is very costly. I believe I paid $1500 for the MCCEE, in addition to thousands of dollars for the US exams.

 

really, did you mean what I was saying here, so why did you empathized than ?

 

I am not sure you got my sarcastic point about the real life of those IMGs (btw, I am not one of them, so I don't ask for empathy);

 

in countries they come from, the value of 1 US $ is not the same as in Canada, explain: if here they could work like two weeks to pay they US steps, or little bit more for EE, in those countries they have to save money for 8 to 12 months to pay just first step, and more often the money come not only from the salary, but also from bribes or kickbacks from their patients or pharm representatives,

 

that's were they lose all they self appreciation as doctors, motivation for professional accomplishments,

 

I would really like to tell you something from the section - sympathy, but most(to be realistic - not all ) of them deserve just empathy, which they would never ask, they need just respect, because judges are enough, but they wouldn't pay them the salary ,

 

so you didn't understand my point, but I didn't expect that,

 

peace

[gongshow]

this program will give them an advantage, but any IMG who gets PR status and lives in BC for >1 year will be considered the same. I think...

 

What i was referring to above was the general round two CARMS selection.

[dokrbb]

From what I have heard, they will not discriminate between IMGs for residency selection. If one person is better qualified they will get the spot, that just might happen to be CSAs as they are likely to fulfill some of the criteria previously mentioned in the blog. But overall, they will not be given special consideration. At least this is what the CMGs studying at UBC have been told.

 

perfect than,

[MASTERdeBATOR]

You missed the boat with that publication. The roadblock BC students studying abroad are facing is that they can't even apply for IMG positions in BC. The OSCE they hold for IMGs is administered in April, after CaRMS is finished. So all the qualified IMGs who could have addressed the shortage in BC end up matching elsewhere.

 

Congrats on your med school acceptance. Your sense of entitlement, however, is nauseating. There are far more qualified applicants than seats, and so if a student decides to seek education abroad, it's probably best not to hold such a condescending attitude like they are less worthy or capable than you. While some IMGs are weaker students, the rigorous training of medical school weeds the vast majority of these people out. There are many more IMGs who are likely much more capable than you because of how many strong applicants get rejected yearly and go abroad, and then are forced to work much harder than their Canadian counterparts. For various reasons, not everyone has the capacity to keep applying for years without a guarantee that they'll eventually get an acceptance.

 

I would argue it takes far more courage and hard work to attend an international medical school than to sit around idly in Canada until you get an acceptance. Especially if you are the type who comes from a wealthy family that pays all your student loans, and allows you to lie around their house for free and reapply yearly until you get in. I think we can all agree that once you're in med school in Canada, it's smooth sailing from there. The same is clearly not the case for international students.

 

 

 

well said my friend

[leviathan]

really, did you mean what I was saying here, so why did you empathized than ?

 

I am not sure you got my sarcastic point about the real life of those IMGs (btw, I am not one of them, so I don't ask for empathy);

 

in countries they come from, the value of 1 US $ is not the same as in Canada, explain: if here they could work like two weeks to pay they US steps, or little bit more for EE, in those countries they have to save money for 8 to 12 months to pay just first step, and more often the money come not only from the salary, but also from bribes or kickbacks from their patients or pharm representatives,

 

that's were they lose all they self appreciation as doctors, motivation for professional accomplishments,

 

I would really like to tell you something from the section - sympathy, but most(to be realistic - not all ) of them deserve just empathy, which they would never ask, they need just respect, because judges are enough, but they wouldn't pay them the salary ,

 

so you didn't understand my point, but I didn't expect that,

 

peace

 

I wasn't being sarcastic. I think you misunderstood me.