International Medical Graudates Trying to Return

[leviathan]

Check your stats on the average number of times that students studying in Canada applied compared to the average number of times that Canadians Studying abroad have applied. "While some students have entered into their international medical school directly from high school, most CSAs have not applied to Canadian medical schools as many times (1.76 times) as the successful Canadian students (CMGs) studying in Canada who apply 2.95 times prior to being admitted. (CaRMS Survey, 2010)"

 

The reasons for this have already been discussed ad nauseum. It's a completely invalid argument and you should stop regurgitating it.

 

Besides that, we can discuss how the CaRMS survey, while helpful, was a voluntary survey that was distributed to only some schools, and only some students at every school were aware of its existence. It is hardly a representative sample of the population, although it does still provide interesting information.

[jag@19]

You know what really irks me is that this whole fire has been fanned by societies like SOCASMA (students of Canada studying medicine abroad). Now, at first glance, it is a terrific idea to raise awareness to the number of canadian students having to leave their home country because of the degree of competition ... which btw we should not be complaining about. We should look at countries like India and China where getting a 94% sometimes even isn't competitive enough to make the cuts for some of the top Indian institutes and those who don't get in leave and head to Singapore, US, UK and Canada instead ... anyways, I digress.

 

Coming back to SOCASMA, it is currently lead by a prominent cardiothoracic surgeon from BC and his wife who happens to be another prominent member from within the BC Ministry of Education. I was quite impressed by it and my parents quickly became members after I received my acceptance letter from Australia. But soon after attending some of their meetings, it became quite obvious that they infact did have other vested interests. For instance, this surgeon's son attends the Univ of Queensland as did ALL the other kids' of physicians who were members incl my parents.

 

It really makes me question the integrity and purpose behind such organizations who will obviously try to spin things in their direction for ulterior motives. Heck it is only natural to want to try and promote your own family and more so, your own children. I would.

 

And let's not forget the current Year 3 medical student who applied 8 times before getting in. Was a high school teacher who really wnated to study medicine in BC and persevered rejection after rejection. Would we now ask him to compete with international medical graduates for a CANADIAN residency spot?!

[leviathan]

"While some students have entered into their international medical school directly from high school, most CSAs have not applied to Canadian medical schools as many times (1.76 times) as the successful Canadian students (CMGs) studying in Canada who apply 2.95 times prior to being admitted. (CaRMS Survey, 2010)" If the average Canadian medical student has had to wait 1.2 years longer than CSAs it seems fair that they should have to wait an extra 6 mo or year so that they can do the Canadian OSCE. It isn't BCs responsibility to have exams that conveniently fits into every IMGs schedule.

That's actually an interesting point you raise; however, it seems strange that BC wouldn't schedule it so that it WAS convenienent for the very people who are taking that exam. It is poor planning on their behalf. The bottom line is, it is harming BC, not so much IMGs. BC is being limited to a very small number of IMGs and they cannot select from the best applicants. Those applicants match elsewhere and the only people who apply to BC are lower tier graduates who failed to match anywhere and have to reapply.

 

Ps. I was an IMG who was accepted back to Canada. When I was down there I was prepared for a long hard battle to come back. I have no problem with IMGs coming back, in fact I am very supportive of this idea, but there needs to be a process and standards to assure that we are only getting very high quality candidates.

So what would you propose, if selecting candidates based on performance on the MCCEE, LMCCs Part 1+2, NAC-OSCE, letters of recommendation from Canadian staff, and other factors are not enough? That seems pretty comprehensive to me. While I fully agree there are some sub-par schools out there, I don't agree that there is any risk at evaluating and accepting IMGs into Canada. The weak students are obvious and never even get close.

[KennethToronto]

Canadian residencies have an obligation to train CMGs. Full stop.

 

Cry me a river if you disagree.

[leviathan]

Would we now ask him to compete with international medical graduates for a CANADIAN residency spot?!

There is no push to get IMGs access to CMG residency spots, as far as I know.

 

But even if there was, would that necessarily be so bad? IMGs will still always be picked second to CMGs. The only scenario I can see where it would affect you is if there was an exceptionally stellar IMG, s/he may get a spot over an exceptionally weak CMG.

 

The vast majority of Canadian students are very hard working and very competent, but you have to admit, there ARE those few reallly bad students who shouldn't be matching. Having a pass/fail system, no licensing exam before matching, and a virtual guarantee of residency does foster laziness in a small number of students. If we opened up the playing field a bit, it might force them to actually work in med school and become better doctors.

 

I can tell you from the experience of friends in the US match, there is rarely an IMG who matches over an AMG, and there are no horror stories of thousands of AMGs failing to match while IMGs jump in and take all their spots. It just doesn't happen.

 

Just an interesting argument for you all to consider.

[Prince Medward]

IMGs should be treated as second class medical graduates. That is by definition what they are. They could not get into a Canadian school because they were not good enough.

 

That is why then went abroad and bought their degree.

 

Why in the world should they be on the same playing field as CMGs? They are not in the same league.

[Robin Hood]

There's a bridging program in Quebec med school (but there's are only little places, like 2-3 at McGill, and this varies from year to year). Maybe we need more. On the other hand, the pharmacy bridging program at UdeM has 30 spots...

[rswim]

Enlighten us on these arguments...

[Mourning Cloak]

Yes, because residency supervisors do not trust IMGs as much as they trust CMGs.

 

There is evidence to show that family med IMG residents don't do as well as family med CMG residents in their certification exams - whatever the reason for this is, if the FM PD is going to be keel-hauled if his/her pass rate is poor, you can see why s/he would show a preference for CMGs.

 

http://www.cfp.ca/content/56/9/e318.full

http://www.cfp.ca/content/56/9/912.full

[tooty]

There's plenty of opportunity in family practice and emerg in rural communities. I get the feeling these IMGs are crying because they can't have the competitive specialties. You can't have your cake and eat it too if you couldn't cut it with the undergrad grades to begin with.

[leviathan]

There is evidence to show that family med IMG residents don't do as well as family med CMG residents in their certification exams - whatever the reason for this is, if the FM PD is going to be keel-hauled if his/her pass rate is poor, you can see why s/he would show a preference for CMGs.

 

http://www.cfp.ca/content/56/9/e318.full

http://www.cfp.ca/content/56/9/912.full

 

Not surprising one of those studies was with BC IMGs, who are for the most part immigrants to Canada with poor English skills who haven't practiced medicine for decades, or fresh grads that did poorly and didn't match anywhere, allowing them to apply for the BC IMG program the following year.

[IamIDP]

I got a few questions:

 

1. Does IMG also include US medical school graduates who are Canadian citizens?

2. Suppose someone goes to a US medical school and completes their residency there. Is there a chance for them to return back to Canada and specialize here?

[rswim]

Not surprising one of those studies was with BC IMGs, who are for the most part immigrants to Canada with poor English skills who haven't practiced medicine for decades, or fresh grads that did poorly and didn't match anywhere, allowing them to apply for the BC IMG program the following year.

 

It seems that the list of excuses from IMGs is endless. The stats are wrong, the survey samples weren't representative, we could have got in eventually, my dog ate my undergrad notes and I failed a class ruining my med school app

[IamIDP]

Not surprising one of those studies was with BC IMGs, who are for the most part immigrants to Canada with poor English skills who haven't practiced medicine for decades, or fresh grads that did poorly and didn't match anywhere, allowing them to apply for the BC IMG program the following year.

 

You do realise, some of these individuals are very bright with excellent GPAs who decide to go study outside the country (ex. US medical schools) for better opportunities. Canada has opportunities, but to specielize it's extremely competitive, whereas the US it's not as difficult and you have a better chance at doing surgery/derm. Also, some individual have very good stats (3.8+ GPA) but can't seam to get by the interviewing stage.

 

Regardless, if you notice how the trends are soaring up for competitive GPAs at Canadian Medical schools, most of us won't be competitive even with a 3.9 GPA in a few years... (People were considered competitive with a 3.7+ over a decade ago....)

[leviathan]

It seems that the list of excuses from IMGs is endless. The stats are wrong, the survey samples weren't representative, we could have got in eventually, my dog ate my undergrad notes and I failed a class ruining my med school app

 

The excuses (also called explanations or discussions in the academic world; you might want to pick up a journal once in awhile) are right in the articles.

[concernedmedstudent]

The excuses (also called explanations or discussions in the academic world; you might want to pick up a journal once in awhile) are right in the articles.

 

Journals like the CMAJ and BCMJ that have been warning people about the risks and challenges that IMGs face when trying come back to Canada to practice medicine?

[leviathan]

Journals like the CMAJ and BCMJ that have been warning people about the risks and challenges that IMGs face when trying come back to Canada to practice medicine?

You're full of non sequiturs eh? What does this have to do with success on the CCFP exam?

[t0ny]

IMGs should be treated as second class medical graduates. That is by definition what they are. They could not get into a Canadian school because they were not good enough.

 

That is why then went abroad and bought their degree.

 

Why in the world should they be on the same playing field as CMGs? They are not in the same league.

 

That is probably the most closed minded statement or argument (if i can even call it that) that i've heard on this post, and there were some pretty bad ones. I can see you are going to develop into one of those physicians with a god complex.

 

The reason some Canadians end up applying abroad IS because they weren't up to par for what the medicals schools in Canada deem WORTHY to accept, but I also believe that Canadian admissions have it very wrong. Our admissions is geard towards those that have it much easier in school, that don't have to work through school or the summer full time, those that have connections and the list goes on. There is no room for explaining circumstances why one got a bad GPA in a single semester, could be due to the fact his parents split up and it was bad timing, could be due to death in family, could be due to multiple factors.

 

Unfortunately they simply base themselves on the stats instead of a holistic approach to an applicant and THIS is why some end up applying abroad. They didn't have the fortunes that you or some others did.

 

So please before you speak out your opinion, make sure it is worthy of being heard.

[rswim]

You're full of non sequiturs eh? What does this have to do with success on the CCFP exam?

 

It has to do with knowing about the culture of care. This is an extremely valuable part of med Ed in Canada. There is more to being a great doctor than scoring well on exams. I would find it highly unlikely that international schools spend very much time addressing the social and political issues that are relevant to Canadian healthcare.

[leviathan]

It has to do with knowing about the culture of care. This is an extremely valuable part of med Ed in Canada. There is more to being a great doctor than scoring well on exams. I would find it highly unlikely that international schools spend very much time addressing the social and political issues that are relevant to Canadian healthcare.

The social and political issues that are relevant to Canada are similar enough in Ireland, Australia or the US where the vast majority of applicants are training. Please elaborate on what aspects of social and political issues are taught in Canadian med schools and are not addressed in these other countries?

[inspiring-curmudgeon]

That is probably the most closed minded statement or argument (if i can even call it that) that i've heard on this post, and there were some pretty bad ones. I can see you are going to develop into one of those physicians with a god complex.

 

The reason some Canadians end up applying abroad IS because they weren't up to par for what the medicals schools in Canada deem WORTHY to accept, but I also believe that Canadian admissions have it very wrong. Our admissions is geard towards those that have it much easier in school, that don't have to work through school or the summer full time, those that have connections and the list goes on. There is no room for explaining circumstances why one got a bad GPA in a single semester, could be due to the fact his parents split up and it was bad timing, could be due to death in family, could be due to multiple factors.

 

Unfortunately they simply base themselves on the stats instead of a holistic approach to an applicant and THIS is why some end up applying abroad. They didn't have the fortunes that you or some others did.

 

So please before you speak out your opinion, make sure it is worthy of being heard.

 

Unfortunately the problem is that a lot of the Canadians going away to foreign medical schools ARE the type of people who don't have to work through summers, have connections, ect. The people who had to work during school and therefore had bad stats aren't the ones who can go international.

 

Also, there are tons of people who have gone through a lot, and STILL make the GPA or MCAT cutoffs at schools. Just cause you weren't able to cope with those challenges doesn't mean you can just go abroad and expect an easy return back to Canada.

[rswim]

The social and political issues that are relevant to Canada are similar enough in Ireland, Australia or the US where the vast majority of applicants are training. Please elaborate on what aspects of social and political issues are taught in Canadian med schools and are not addressed in these other countries?

 

Off the top of my head: first nations determinates of health, can med competences, the framework of our public healthcare system and relevant acts, the privatization debate and how it pertains to Canada, access to care in rural communities...

[t0ny]

Also, there are tons of people who have gone through a lot, and STILL make the GPA or MCAT cutoffs at schools. Just cause you weren't able to cope with those challenges doesn't mean you can just go abroad and expect an easy return back to Canada.

 

I never said I was an IMG at all, i am finishing my 3rd year in Canada. Also judging by what you have just said you clearly never had to work through taking 5 classes, and I have. So please get off your ego throne and spare me the condescending comments.

 

I am not saying that it is an excuse to have to work harder than others through school to achieve the same results due to shortcomings caused by life factors that can't be changed, I am simply stating that it should be taken into consideration. People who have an advantaged life seemed to have closed minded visions and this is a terrible trend.

[leviathan]

Off the top of my head: first nations determinates of health, can med competences, the framework of our public healthcare system and relevant acts, the privatization debate and how it pertains to Canada, access to care in rural communities...

I don't see how any of those legitimately affect the competency of a doctor, but let me address them:

 

1. Every western country has marginalized ethnic groups with similar issues of healthcare access, including first nations groups in the US, aboriginal groups in Australia, etc. Canada actually has less education dealing with this than Americans, where there is a much larger population of minority groups who have no access to health care besides through medicaid and similar services.

 

2. Canmeds? Don't see how learning what needs to be taught is the same thing as not being taught those topics. Don't follow you on this one.

 

3. Canadians studying abroad are aware of our public healthcare system and its framework, privatization debates etc. Immigrant IMGs can certainly learn these things in a few hours, but that's not what this thread is about. Nor does this have anything to really do with a doctor's ability to take care of patients, besides being part of a grander scheme of the role of doctors as advocates in the community and in politics. I don't think the rural communities of Canada care whether their doctor is informed on what kinds of two-tiered nightmare systems people like Brian Day want to introduce; they just want a doctor to take care of them.

 

4. Access to care in rural communities - I wasn't aware the US, Ireland, and Australia didn't have rural communities with access problems. Again, the US is more progressive than Canada on this one with access to NPs, PAs, and even CRNAs in rural communities addressing the gap in healthcare. Not that I agree with all of that, but it's an issue that is present.

[inspiring-curmudgeon]

I never said I was an IMG at all, i am finishing my 3rd year in Canada. Also judging by what you have just said you clearly never had to work through taking 5 classes, and I have. So please get off your ego throne and spare me the condescending comments.

 

I am not saying that it is an excuse to have to work harder than others through school to achieve the same results due to shortcomings caused by life factors that can't be changed, I am simply stating that it should be taken into consideration. People who have an advantaged life seemed to have closed minded visions and this is a terrible trend.

 

Sorry that wasn't directed at you, I just meant in general.