International Medical Graudates Trying to Return

[inspiring-curmudgeon]

I never said I was an IMG at all, i am finishing my 3rd year in Canada. Also judging by what you have just said you clearly never had to work through taking 5 classes, and I have. So please get off your ego throne and spare me the condescending comments.

 

I am not saying that it is an excuse to have to work harder than others through school to achieve the same results due to shortcomings caused by life factors that can't be changed, I am simply stating that it should be taken into consideration. People who have an advantaged life seemed to have closed minded visions and this is a terrible trend.

 

I worked full time during the summer while juggling multiple things, and worked 15-25hrs/week during the school year. I had to tutor privileged rich kids just so I could pay for my suit for my interview last year. My mother is unemployed and has not contributed to my education financially (I know she would if she could). Please don't make assumptions.

 

And I totally agree with you! The circumstances of ones life should certainly play a role in admissions. However, I don't think letting international graduates back easier should have anything to do with it. It's a problem that should be solved on Canadian soil.

[Robin Hood]

Off the top of my head: first nations determinates of health, can med competences, the framework of our public healthcare system and relevant acts, the privatization debate and how it pertains to Canada, access to care in rural communities...

 

Except for Canmed competency, I don't see how this is relevent to accepting an IMG, as if they can't be taught in a few hours. Plus, the healthcare system in the US is different from here, but AMGs are not frown upon.

[leviathan]

I think the point is that not everyone is on a level playing field when applying.

 

Some students are so strong that they can beat the odds and still get the grades they need, in spite of juggling between school,families,part time jobs, etc.Many other students cannot achieve this, yet would have gained admission if they were as fortunate as some of the people in Canadian schools who didn't need to overcome any obstacles. There are also many students from wealthy families who run off to Ireland and Australia for their training.

 

There's all varieties of people on both sides of the ocean. As future or current physicians, I think it is important to be careful before we judge a person's character solely on where they went to school. That goes for both CMGs and IMGs.

[rswim]

I don't see how any of those legitimately affect the competency of a doctor, but let me address them:

 

1. Every western country has marginalized ethnic groups with similar issues of healthcare access, including first nations groups in the US, aboriginal groups in Australia, etc. Canada actually has less education dealing with this than Americans, where there is a much larger population of minority groups who have no access to health care besides through medicaid and similar services.

 

2. Canmeds? Don't see how learning what needs to be taught is the same thing as not being taught those topics. Don't follow you on this one.

 

3. Canadians studying abroad are aware of our public healthcare system and its framework, privatization debates etc. Immigrant IMGs can certainly learn these things in a few hours, but that's not what this thread is about. Nor does this have anything to really do with a doctor's ability to take care of patients, besides being part of a grander scheme of the role of doctors as advocates in the community and in politics. I don't think the rural communities of Canada care whether their doctor is informed on what kinds of two-tiered nightmare systems people like Brian Day want to introduce; they just want a doctor to take care of them.

 

4. Access to care in rural communities - I wasn't aware the US, Ireland, and Australia didn't have rural communities with access problems. Again, the US is more progressive than Canada on this one with access to NPs, PAs, and even CRNAs in rural communities addressing the gap in healthcare. Not that I agree with all of that, but it's an issue that is present.

 

Learning about the culture of care isn't as simple as reading a few pages in a textbook. Knowing the role and scope of other healthcare professionals is important in order to deliver efficient care.

 

If these other countries are so far ahead of Canada then why do IMGs insist on coming to Canada?

 

I agree that the US has some great schools, I attended one for my undergrad. They also have a lot of crappy schools. Again the issue cea back to theaasive disparities.

 

I feel for those people who went to Harvard or Oxford etc and now can't get back. But I'll bet most o these people were smart enough and knew what they were getting into before they went. The problem it would be seen as discrimination if we selectively let these IMGs back but not those that went to private Caribbean schools that were as up specifically or people who couldn't get into schools in their home countries.

[rswim]

Sorry for the typos. Sent from mobile

[Robin Hood]

That is probably the most closed minded statement or argument (if i can even call it that) that i've heard on this post, and there were some pretty bad ones. I can see you are going to develop into one of those physicians with a god complex.

 

The reason some Canadians end up applying abroad IS because they weren't up to par for what the medicals schools in Canada deem WORTHY to accept, but I also believe that Canadian admissions have it very wrong. Our admissions is geard towards those that have it much easier in school, that don't have to work through school or the summer full time, those that have connections and the list goes on. There is no room for explaining circumstances why one got a bad GPA in a single semester, could be due to the fact his parents split up and it was bad timing, could be due to death in family, could be due to multiple factors.

 

Unfortunately they simply base themselves on the stats instead of a holistic approach to an applicant and THIS is why some end up applying abroad. They didn't have the fortunes that you or some others did.

 

So please before you speak out your opinion, make sure it is worthy of being heard.

 

The problem is, how can you enter extenuing circumpstances in the GPA calculation, how can you know the real potential of the applicant? Adcoms don't want to penalize more competitive applicants than the guy who experienced hardships.

Maybe a good thing to do will be introducing SMPs (Special Masters Programs) like in the US, but given that medicine is hightly competitive, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

[moo]

I graduated from a US school.

 

It's not hard to learn about the Canadian system. The LMCC's weren't hard. I never understood why Canadian students study so hard for them. I studied for the LMCCs for about 1 month, alongside my USMLE Step 2, and passed part I easily. Part II, the questions were all recycled.

[Robin Hood]

I think the point is that not everyone is on a level playing field when applying.

 

Some students are so strong that they can beat the odds and still get the grades they need, in spite of juggling between school,families,part time jobs, etc.Many other students cannot achieve this, yet would have gained admission if they were as fortunate as some of the people in Canadian schools who didn't need to overcome any obstacles. There are also many students from wealthy families who run off to Ireland and Australia for their training.

 

There's all varieties of people on both sides of the ocean. As future or current physicians, I think it is important to be careful before we judge a person's character solely on where they went to school. That goes for both CMGs and IMGs.

 

Can you say your clerkship is like the clerkship of CMGs/AMGs (role, duration, etc...)?

[leviathan]

Learning about the culture of care isn't as simple as reading a few pages in a textbook. Knowing the role and scope of other healthcare professionals is important in order to deliver efficient care.

Heh. No offense but this is so nebulous, you sound like you're just grasping at straws here. Knowing the role and scope of other healthcare professionals? You mean when I did my clerkship in the US, there were no such things as pharmacists, RNs,RTs,PT/OT,CRNAs, PAs? Wait, there's actually more healthcare professionals in the US than Canada. How about that, I guess I learned more about "culture of care" than you did. I would actually love to see your responses when I sat down and asked you about the roles of other professions, since you claim to be an expert.

 

If these other countries are so far ahead of Canada then why do IMGs insist on coming to Canada?

Is this seriously your argument? Canadian IMGs want to come back because of their families, friends, their home turf, not because of the training (although the training is certainly fine). That said I have many classmates who think Canada is a joke and will never consider coming back. I disagree with them on that, but just relaying their opinion. And immigrant IMGs apply far far more to the US than Canada. Canada is rarely an immigrant's #1 choice, especially if they are a physician

 

The problem it would be seen as discrimination if we selectively let these IMGs back but not those that went to private Caribbean schools that were as up specifically or people who couldn't get into schools in their home countries.

Whether it's private schools in the US, Caribbean, or Australia, they are all catered for students who couldn't get into schools in their home countries. As someone graduating soon from a Caribbean school that is well established and accredited in the US and the Netherlands, I'd love to hear why that makes my school any less capable than yours.

[t0ny]

The problem is, how can you enter extenuing circumpstances in the GPA calculation, how can you know the real potential of the applicant? Adcoms don't want to penalize more competitive applicants than the guy who experienced hardships.

Maybe a good thing to do will be introducing SMPs (Special Masters Programs) like in the US, but given that medicine is hightly competitive, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

 

I completely agree with you that it is a sticky situation, but it is simply because Canada is not as fortunate as the United States in terms of medical schools.

 

The term "competitive" is relative and I don't mean to make it factor into the GPA calculation. I mean that factors such as this are explained in a PS and for this to ACTUALLY have some weight in the application process instead of being for show. I believe there would be many benefits that would ensue if we lowered these "computerized" cutoffs in order to at least take into consideration other applications. Doing so would no make someone with a 3.9 any less competitive, but would allow the person with a 3.5-3.6 to at least a fair decision. Im not saying to accept these people with lower standards, just consider them because you Never Know.

[leviathan]

Can you say your clerkship is like the clerkship of CMGs/AMGs (role, duration, etc...)?

It wasn't "like" their clerkship, it was the same clerkship as them. I did all of my clerkship at a medical school in the midwest, alongside their med students. I have done most of my elective time in Canada. I've found canadian med students are strong, and on par with my classmates and other American students I've worked with. I found knowledge-wise they were not as strong, but I don't know if that's because they don't have to study for something like the Step 1 or Step 2, and hopefully they catch up with time.

[Robin Hood]

Heh. No offense but this is so nebulous, you sound like you're just grasping at straws here. Knowing the role and scope of other healthcare professionals? You mean when I did my clerkship in the US, there were no such things as pharmacists, RNs,RTs,PT/OT,CRNAs, PAs? Wait, there's actually more healthcare professionals in the US than Canada. How about that, I guess I learned more about "culture of care" than you did. I would actually love to see your responses when I sat down and asked you about the roles of other professions, since you claim to be an expert.

 

 

Is this seriously your argument? Canadian IMGs want to come back because of their families, friends, their home turf, not because of the training (although the training is certainly fine). That said I have many classmates who think Canada is a joke and will never consider coming back. I disagree with them on that, but just relaying their opinion. And immigrant IMGs apply far far more to the US than Canada. Canada is rarely an immigrant's #1 choice, especially if they are a physician

 

 

Whether it's private schools in the US, Caribbean, or Australia, they are all catered for students who couldn't get into schools in their home countries. As someone graduating soon from a Caribbean school that is well established and accredited in the US and the Netherlands, I'd love to hear why that makes my school any less capable than yours.

 

Wait! Saba is accredited in the US (or some US states)?

[IamIDP]

I got a few questions:

 

1. Does IMG also include US medical school graduates who are Canadian citizens?

2. Suppose someone goes to a US medical school and completes their residency there. Is there a chance for them to return back to Canada and specialize here?

[leviathan]

Wait! Saba is accredited in the US (or some US states)?

They're accredited in all 50 states. Most states just accept their accreditation from the Netherlands / listing on the WHO. Other states require site-visits for quality assurance before giving accreditation, and they've had that accreditation by all those states (NY,Cali,Texas,Florida,I believe NJ).

[Robin Hood]

I got a few questions:

 

1. Does IMG also include US medical school graduates who are Canadian citizens?

2. Suppose someone goes to a US medical school and completes their residency there. Is there a chance for them to return back to Canada and specialize here?

 

No.

Yes.

...

[Robin Hood]

They're accredited in all 50 states. Most states just accept their accreditation from the Netherlands / listing on the WHO. Other states require site-visits for quality assurance before giving accreditation, and they've had that accreditation by all those states (NY,Cali,Texas,Florida,I believe NJ).

 

But you are not treated as graduate of an LMCC accredited schools anywhere.

[moo]

I got a few questions:

 

1. Does IMG also include US medical school graduates who are Canadian citizens?

2. Suppose someone goes to a US medical school and completes their residency there. Is there a chance for them to return back to Canada and specialize here?

 

1) No

2) Hard to say. Varies from specialty to specialty. Ian Wong, founder of this board did rads in the US and came back. For Family Med, you can, no problem. For other Royal College specialties, this depends. In general, ACGME accredited residencies will count toward eligibility to take the RC exams, but most US residencies are a year short so you'll need to make up a year either in Canada or the US for this. Sometimes fellowships count (if they're RC or ACGME accredited) to make up the time, other times they don't. But many fellowships aren't accredited, even in Canada. My ophthal friend did a fellowship in Canada after his residency in the US (he was a CMG). He had to fight pretty hard to get the fellowship recognized as a residency year to make him eligible to do the RC exams. Others haven't been so lucky. It really varies and there's no simple straight answer.

[leviathan]

But you are not treated as graduate of an LMCC accredited schools anywhere.

...because it's not an LMCC accredited school. The US doesn't care about that for its own residency purposes. You are entitled to apply for any residency position so long as you have completed all the US licensing exams. You are entitled to work in any state provided your MD degree/school is recognized by that state.

[Robin Hood]

Learning about the culture of care isn't as simple as reading a few pages in a textbook. Knowing the role and scope of other healthcare professionals is important in order to deliver efficient care.

 

If these other countries are so far ahead of Canada then why do IMGs insist on coming to Canada?

 

I agree that the US has some great schools, I attended one for my undergrad. They also have a lot of crappy schools. Again the issue cea back to theaasive disparities.

 

I feel for those people who went to Harvard or Oxford etc and now can't get back. But I'll bet most o these people were smart enough and knew what they were getting into before they went. The problem it would be seen as discrimination if we selectively let these IMGs back but not those that went to private Caribbean schools that were as up specifically or people who couldn't get into schools in their home countries.

 

Ofxord is in the UK, and the UK is a developped country, so their standards must be high (we even recognize their FM rez). As for Caribbean schools, you have some, like Saba, who do clerkship in the US/Canada, we can use this in evaluating IMG and IMG schools, especially since rez acceptance depends heavily on clerkship, I would prefer a Saba grad who did did good during clerkship and has good LOR over a CMG who did bad there.

But I agree it would be hard to evaluate non North American clerkship.

[Robin Hood]

...because it's not an LMCC accredited school. The US doesn't care about that for its own residency purposes. You are entitled to apply for any residency position so long as you have completed all the US licensing exams. You are entitled to work in any state provided your MD degree/school is recognized by that state.

 

So the US doesn't have a policy of discrimination against IMGs like Canada?

[concernedmedstudent]

 

Whether it's private schools in the US, Caribbean, or Australia, they are all catered for students who couldn't get into schools in their home countries. As someone graduating soon from a Caribbean school that is well established and accredited in the US and the Netherlands, I'd love to hear why that makes my school any less capable than yours.

 

That is totally untrue. Schools like Harvard, Hopkins etc are private Universities. Students studying at these schools went their because it is an incredible opportunity for them to study at world class institutions. The US has three accreditation tears of medical schools, all Canadian schools are also accredited within this top tear. Maybe this is why some Americans think that Canadians are arrogant about their med schools. The point is, as a Canadian med student, I'm not claiming (nor are most of my colleagues) that our schools are better than Harvard, Hopkins, UW, UCSF etc. In fact, we welcome these students for rotations and electives and appreciate the opportunities to do electives at these fine institutions.

 

I think that you would anger many of your American colleagues if you tried to claim that Caribbean schools are of the same quality and intensity as the top tear US institutions. There is a reason that the best schools have incredibly high standards for admission, both academic and otherwise.

 

That being said I can appreciate that Caribbean and other for profit schools occasionally produce fantastic physicians and if these docs put in the work and navigate through the current challenges in the system they will make it back to Canada or the US and be great docs. There are always examples of exceptional and terrible students from every institution, but the average grad from school to school will not be the same.

[Robin Hood]

That is totally untrue. Schools like Harvard, Hopkins etc are private Universities. Students studying at these schools went their because it is an incredible opportunity for them to study at world class institutions. The US has three accreditation tears of medical schools, all Canadian schools are also accredited within this top tear. Maybe this is why some Americans think that Canadians are arrogant about their med schools. The point is, as a Canadian med student, I'm not claiming (nor are most of my colleagues) that our schools are better than Harvard, Hopkins, UW, UCSF etc. In fact, we welcome these students for rotations and electives and appreciate the opportunities to do electives at these fine institutions.

 

I think that you would anger many of your American colleagues if you tried to claim that Caribbean schools are of the same quality and intensity as the top tear US institutions. There is a reason that the best schools have incredibly high standards for admission, both academic and otherwise.

 

That being said I can appreciate that Caribbean and other for profit schools occasionally produce fantastic physicians and if these docs put in the work and navigate through the current challenges in the system they will make it back to Canada or the US and be great docs. There are always examples of exceptional and terrible students from every institution, but the average grad from school to school will not be the same.

 

Depends on the school, some schools in the caribbean are dubious, some have clerkship in the US/canada, if they are of a bad quality, they wouldn't be doing clerkship there (and even if they did, I bet most students will fail).

[moo]

What are the three tiers of which you speak? There is only one tier that I know of. Unless you mean probationary status--which I know three Canadian schools have recently been branded with in the past decade.

[leviathan]

When I say private US schools we're obviously not talking about Harvard, guy...we're talking about schools like Wayne State...$80k/year for tuition, to live in Detroit. OK, nothing fishy about that.

 

Also I apologize for being so blunt but your appraisal of medical education based on the overall reputation of a university is very ignorant. Medical school is virtually the same no matter where you go. The quality of education you get is largely determined by how hard you work as a student, not which classroom you sit in to get a lecture on pathophysiology and treatment of heart failure. That said, clerkship is one area where you can see a big difference in quality. If you go to a big named school like Harvard with hospitals that are chock-full of residents, fellows, subfellows, etc...I can't imagine how you would get more responsibility than to do a rectal on your patient or put in a foley. It's the smaller unopposed programs that are the best to get your medical training, where you get to do everything.

 

Also, where are these 3 "top tears[sic]" that you speak of, and since when does Canada fit into the top tier? Link us the proof, please. Are all Canadian med students this delusional about how great they are? I'm guessing you haven't started clerkship yet, or I don't know how you haven't been humbled yet, maybe even by an IMG resident or attending.

[moo]

When I say private US schools we're obviously not talking about Harvard, guy...we're talking about schools like Wayne State...$80k/year for tuition, to live in Detroit. OK, nothing fishy about that.

 

Also I apologize for being so blunt but your appraisal of medical education based on the overall reputation of a university is very ignorant. Medical school is virtually the same no matter where you go. The quality of education you get is largely determined by how hard you work as a student, not which classroom you sit in to get a lecture on pathophysiology and treatment of heart failure.

 

Also, where are these 3 "top tears[sic]" that you speak of, and since when does Canada fit into the top tier? Link us the proof, please.

 

WSU is a state school and is a fine school. This is no different from UBC charging exorbant amounts to foreigners for an UNDERGRADUATE (not medical) education to raise money. Also no different from McGill charging Americans a lot more than local kids to attend.

 

There is only one for-profit medical school in the US and that's a school in Denver. It is a DO school. It's owned and operated by the same dude that operates Ross University, one of the big four carib schools. All US MD schools have to be public or private not-for-profit.