International Medical Graudates Trying to Return

[IamIDP]

you read me wrong bro.

 

I never said i'm entitled. I'm glad i passed this hurdle and got in, but i know i still have to work hard to become a competent doctor because i know i can't as of right now.

 

why u judgin

 

You do realise that there are many CMG that don't work hard and still get in through connections + good interviewing skills (Ex. Mcmaster med accepts dozens of students who aren't the smartest group based on their GPA which range from 3.0-3.4). I'm not trying to offend anyone but obviously the people with a high GPA spend alot of time trying to get it, EC's can be done by anyone but a high GPA is different.

 

Therefore, I don't think most CMG have something to be arrogant about as there are many IMG that are better than CMG. Most of the cures for diseases come from International medical practitioners in comparison to CMG. Let me give you an example, Einstein immigrated from Germany (like a IMG) but look at his accomplishments...

 

So my point is, there are many IMG that are very smart. However, at the same time based on stats, many are idiots. Whose fault is this? The Canadian Government for allowing these idiots to practice here (1 accidentally prescribed my aunt depression pills recently).

[concernedmedstudent]

So you think you're pretty entitled just because you've passed the hurdle? Typical arrogance.

 

This is not arrogance or entitlement. This is being proud and appreciative of his accomplishment. CMGs work very hard to get those seats. Despite what some people may say they are not LUCKY, they earned those seats.

 

In Canada we have some of the fairest admissions processes in the world, there is very little nepotism. If you don't think this is true, then how come so many physicians' (some of whom are very powerful) children are now IMGs? If we had nepotism they would be the ones filling the seats at Canadian medical schools and if this were the case this entire IMG issue would be dead in the water without any physician support.

[concernedmedstudent]

You do realise that there are many CMG that don't work hard and still get in through connections + good interviewing skills (Ex. Mcmaster med accepts dozens of students who aren't the smartest group based on their GPA which range from 3.0-3.4). I'm not trying to offend anyone but obviously the people with a high GPA spend alot of time trying to get it, EC's can be done by anyone but a high GPA is different.

 

Therefore, I don't think most CMG have something to be arrogant about as there are many IMG that are better than CMG. Most of the cures for diseases come from International medical practitioners in comparison to CMG. Let me give you an example, Einstein immigrated from Germany (like a IMG) but look at his accomplishments...

 

So my point is, there are many IMG that are very smart. However, at the same time based on stats, many are idiots. Whose fault is this? The Canadian Government for allowing these idiots to practice here (1 accidentally prescribed my aunt depression pills).

 

Again, see my last post, there is very little nepotism in our admissions processes. Yes let IMGs back, I agree, the very best and brightest who got through the very difficult domestic admissions processes at their own Universities. For example, I think we should let a lot of the top English graduates from Oxford, or the top American graduates from Harvard, or top Aussies for Australia. They don't necessarily have to be domestics, but for the most part they will be because these are the folks that have already been thinned out by an extremely competitive application process.

[IamIDP]

Again, see my last post, there is very little nepotism in our admissions processes. Yes let IMGs back, I agree, the very best and brightest who got through the very difficult domestic admissions processes at their own Universities. For example, I think we should let a lot of the top English graduates from Oxford, or the top American graduates from Harvard, or top Aussies for Australia. They don't necessarily have to be domestics, but for the most part they will be because these are the folks that have already been thinned out by an extremely competitive application process.

 

Not really, I still see many idiots who get past the board exams and manage to practice here somehow.

 

That awkward moment when you find out your family doc you've been visting for 8+ years graduated from a Caribbean school....just happened to me.

 

Opposite story for me, I asked my family doc where he graudated from a few months ago (He's been my doc for about 15 years now).....he said Uoft Med.

He's very very bright I must say.

[gongshow]

I think one of my biggest concerns is not about IMGs but rather Canadians studying medicine abroad. For the most part (there are exceptions) they are a self selected group of people who failed to get into Canada and instead of sucking it up and trying again, they decided to try to take a short cut (often with the support of their wealthy parents). This is just not a quality that sits well with me as a potential patient in Canada.

[leviathan]

I think one of my biggest concerns is not about IMGs but rather Canadians studying medicine abroad. For the most part (there are exceptions) they are a self selected group of people who failed to get into Canada and instead of sucking it up and trying again, they decided to try to take a short cut (often with the support of their wealthy parents). This is just not a quality that sits well with me as a potential patient in Canada.

I've not found this to be the case from my school. Maybe students in Ireland/Australia are different where the costs of attending are unobtainable for many. Even in the CaRMS survey you'll notice the average international student is older, which makes sense since they don't have the same luxury of reapplying yearly as a 20-something premed.

[Illuminant]

I think one of my biggest concerns is not about IMGs but rather Canadians studying medicine abroad. For the most part (there are exceptions) they are a self selected group of people who failed to get into Canada and instead of sucking it up and trying again, they decided to try to take a short cut (often with the support of their wealthy parents). This is just not a quality that sits well with me as a potential patient in Canada.

 

But why? a typical patient doesn't even care about where his doc got his MD degree .. all they care about is getting their prescriptions ..

[dy727]

Yes I do realize there are CMGs that don't work hard and got in through connections, there's a crack in every single system.

That wasn't the point of my thread.

The point of my thread was that the government invested their money into those med school seats so the government wants some return.

 

Truth is that there will always be IMGs who are smart and competent. There will always be CMGs who are incompetent and don't know from A to Z. The system then should try to recruit the best doctors out of both pools, CMG and IMG.

But because of the way our health care system is structured (with public funding for universities, regional health authorities etc), CMGs whose seats are paid for by the government (~$100 000) will be nearly guaranteed a job after graduation.

Do they deserve the jobs? Most do but not everyone. And by "deserve" I don't mean they don't have to work for it, but that they have probably worked hard during med school and are at a standard where they do deserve the jobs.

 

Also, I want to believe that our medical education system in Canada is doing a good job and are admitting those individuals who will be competent doctors. So I want to believe that CMGs overall are better doctors than IMGs who studied in the carribeans e.g.

 

But here's something to think about, who would you trust more?

a CMG who barely passed every single course (~60%) and graduated

vs

an IMG from the carribeans who barely passed every course (~60%) and graduated

[gongshow]

IMGs were happy enough to finance their own medical undergraduate education, perhaps they should finance their own residency? Currently there are some residents from the middle East who pay for positions here in Canada at >100k/year. If other IMGs are willing to do that (maybe with a discount for a 5yr + return of service to areas of need) then I think they would be welcomed into Canada with open arms. This may sound ridiculous, but there ability to pay was the whole reason that reputable schools (eg University of Queensland) accepted them in the first place.... to inject money into the med ed system! It is the sad and unfortunate truth that if you have enough money you can get what you want, that is how many of CSA IMGs got their medical degrees in the first place. Its not ideal but i guess that way both sides get what they want, the CSAs a spot in Cdn residency and the residency programs $$ to fund their programs. The only losers are the public who might wind up with a doc who bought their medical license. Perhaps this is where the college comes into play.

[leviathan]

That's the arrogance that makes you look really unprofessional, gong. You can't "buy" a medical license, and that's extremely disrespectful of you to say something like that.

[JB.]

First of all, as someone who has been in the US and Canada, I can tell you that people really don't care what degree you have (MBBS v DO v MD). Many of the ones who teach at UBC have foreign medical degrees. Even at a top 20 school in the US, many of my attendings were from overseas or DOs. Nobody stops you in the hall when you're an attending to look at your tag to see whether it's an MBBS v DO v MD. Really. Second, as someone who is going to be involved in undergraduate and graduate medical education in a few months time, and as someone who has taught at the undergraduate medical level for the past 6 years, I can tell you that the caliber of students at the two Canadian schools I've been at really varies. I've had 3rd year students who didn't even know that ibuprofen is an anti-pyretic, didn't know how to even write a tylenol order, etc. Others have been great. However, I can tell you one thing that almost all students lack compared to when I was in the US is skills in EBM and epidemiology, which I think is the underpinning of almost every medical specialty. This is ironic because EBM and epidemiology is known to be quite strong in Canada--apparently not at the two Canadian medical schools I've taught at. Of course, this is only my observation, but I feel that the curriculum in the two schools I've been at is very weak in this regard. This is reflected in the Royal College comments for the last few Public Health exams--there was lots of concern about lack of epi skills among our grads, even though all of the Public Health grads have completed a Masters.

 

My point is, all North American schools have to meet basic minimum standards. Some schools are naturally better than others, but all should be considered more or less equivalent. It's the individual that determines whether they are competent or not to practice medicine.

 

As for Caribbean, Aus, Irish schools, I think they are more or less equivalent. yes, there is some jealousy among NA grads that IMGs are able to come back to compete for positions but in the end, those who went abroad sacraficed a lot too--away from home/families, financially, living in a foreign country, etc. As Canadian students you guys need to be careful about criticizing other countries' med schools, because you never know if your next attending will be an IMG.

 

What two schools were you teaching at, Moo?

[medisforme]

Just spent a considerable amount of time reading this entire thread. Quite amusing at times, apparently everyone who goes to school overseas come from wealthy families and have life given to them on a silver platter while those who were accepted into Canadian med schools by and large a work that much harder, often dealing with extenuating circumstances (I have yet to see an accepted applicant who didn't work 30 hrs a week while taking a full course load and volunteering at several places, often while dealing with personal and family problems;) ). I think we have gotten all the relevant discussion we are going to get out of this thread, the last few pages seem to just recycle the same views/opinions/ideas.

 

I for one will likely attend UCD next year (with full understanding of the risks involved) if I am not accepted into UBC come May 13th, this is my 4th application cycle and I have become somewhat jaded with the application process (am a mature, non-trad applicant).

[The student]

Yes I do realize there are CMGs that don't work hard and got in through connections, there's a crack in every single system.

That wasn't the point of my thread.

The point of my thread was that the government invested their money into those med school seats so the government wants some return.

 

Truth is that there will always be IMGs who are smart and competent. There will always be CMGs who are incompetent and don't know from A to Z. The system then should try to recruit the best doctors out of both pools, CMG and IMG.

But because of the way our health care system is structured (with public funding for universities, regional health authorities etc), CMGs whose seats are paid for by the government (~$100 000) will be nearly guaranteed a job after graduation.

Do they deserve the jobs? Most do but not everyone. And by "deserve" I don't mean they don't have to work for it, but that they have probably worked hard during med school and are at a standard where they do deserve the jobs.

 

Also, I want to believe that our medical education system in Canada is doing a good job and are admitting those individuals who will be competent doctors. So I want to believe that CMGs overall are better doctors than IMGs who studied in the carribeans e.g.

 

But here's something to think about, who would you trust more?

a CMG who barely passed every single course (~60%) and graduated

vs

an IMG from the carribeans who barely passed every course (~60%) and graduated

 

I had a CTU senior that fits that description and the body count was pretty high that month. In fairness to the IMGs out there, I've also worked with a bunch that were absolute rock stars.

[Mourning Cloak]

What surprises me is that this ancient circular argument eclipsed the Hooker MD thread.

[gongshow]

That's the arrogance that makes you look really unprofessional, gong. You can't "buy" a medical license, and that's extremely disrespectful of you to say something like that.

 

It is meant a bit sarcastically. However, how else can you explain the fact that International students are accepted into medical schools without any interview or essay with grades that are far far lower than those of domestic students applying to the same schools? $$$$$$$ International students fund positions for domestic students. The Caribbean is different, here the whole thing is set up to make money. Both are equally as bad, but at least some schools use that money to provide quality education for those that have qualified to be there.

 

I think it is unfortunate that these corporations (schools) take advantage of kids desperate attempts to become doctors. Its not so bad for the rich ones whose moms and dads willingly shell out 200k for them to go, but some less informed individuals take out massive loans for what they think is a sure shot at a medical career without thoroughly going over the unbiased facts about their likelihood of returning to Canada to practice medicine. It isn't necessarily the student's fault, because the for profit med schools do such a good job of spinning the numbers and making it look like such a great opportunity with ridiculous propaganda posted all over Canadian undergraduate campuses.

[medisforme]

IMGs were happy enough to finance their own medical undergraduate education, perhaps they should finance their own residency? Currently there are some residents from the middle East who pay for positions here in Canada at >100k/year. If other IMGs are willing to do that (maybe with a discount for a 5yr + return of service to areas of need) then I think they would be welcomed into Canada with open arms. This may sound ridiculous, but there ability to pay was the whole reason that reputable schools (eg University of Queensland) accepted them in the first place.... to inject money into the med ed system! It is the sad and unfortunate truth that if you have enough money you can get what you want, that is how many of CSA IMGs got their medical degrees in the first place. Its not ideal but i guess that way both sides get what they want, the CSAs a spot in Cdn residency and the residency programs $$ to fund their programs. The only losers are the public who might wind up with a doc who bought their medical license. Perhaps this is where the college comes into play.

 

It is not just about money, you still have to find physicians who can train residents. There aren't an unlimited supply of doctors to do this just because someone pays for their own residency. If you just choose to plug more residents into programs, I think it is obvious the quality of training would decrease significantly.

[leviathan]

IMGs do pay for their own residency, btw. They have to do a return of service in exchange for residency. If they don't, they have to pay $100,000 for every year of service that they don't give back.

[rswim]

IMGs do pay for their own residency, btw. They have to do a return of service in exchange for residency. If they don't, they have to pay $100,000 for every year of service that they don't give back.

 

I feel sorry for those who really can't afford to be doing this. They really are having there good intentions and desperate desire to

Become a doc taken advantage of by corporate greed. They would better off accepting the reality. Not everyone who wants to be a doctor can become a doctor. We need more nurses and other fantastic health professionals!

[IamIDP]

But why? a typical patient doesn't even care about where his doc got his MD degree .. all they care about is getting their prescriptions ..

 

Yes you are right they don't care. But how come most Caribbeans MD are idiots who are more likely to misdiagnose patients. Not all of them are like this, BUT many of them are.

 

Tbh, some patients do care where their doctors did their MD (like me). US and Canadian schools are fine and maybe the top 3 caribeans schools, but I personally don't like ferign family doctors unless they are specialized.

 

Only foreign practitioners who specialize are respectable in my opinion equally to Canadians.

[Robin Hood]

Keep in mind that there once was a time when an undergraduate degree carried significant value in society. If you had an undergrad you were considered educated and would likely find a pretty good job. Then everyone wanted to get an undergraduate degree, standards dropped, new for profit colleges/universities opened up, and what was the result? Undergraduate degrees from all but the most prestigious universities have lost a significant amount of value. If we just let any person with any old MD or MBBS or DO or whatever they call their medical degree, fight for a spot in Canadian Residency programs then we are undermining the value of a Canadian medical degree and we are prolonging the rat race.

 

Is it cost effective? absolutely. Is it safe for our population and will it increase the quality of care? Not a chance. If it is just about being fair and saving money then by all means open up the competition to everyone. I'll bet there is a whole bunch of MDs from developing nations that would LOVE to come work in Canada for a small fraction of what we pay Canadian MDs.

 

Fortunately, most physicians will continue to fight hard to keep tight regulations on who has access to becoming a doctor in this country. These are the same physicians that are fighting for patient safety and quality of care, instead of fighting to make sure their sweet little Bobby and Suzy who want to grow up to be a doc just like mommy and daddy, are able to get a spot back in Canada.

 

You are talking as if Canadian IMGs did med school in non developped countries. The last time I checked, Ireland, Australia, and the Netherlands (Saba is a Dutch island) are developped countries.

[gongshow]

You are talking as if Canadian IMGs did med school in non developped countries. The last time I checked, Ireland, Australia, and the Netherlands (Saba is a Dutch island) are developped countries.

 

There are CSA IMGs studying in over 20 different countries. Some very developed, some less developed. Who are we to discriminate. Human rights say that we can't treat people differently based on where they come from. As far as the law is concerned a CSA IMG from Ireland is the same as an Irish IMG from Ireland. An IMG is an IMG is an IMG it doesn't matter where they studied or where they are from they need to go through a series of tests and make it through a lot of evaluation before I would be comfortable letting them lay their hands on me as a physician. If they are willing to spend a few years and make it through all of this then good on them and welcome to Canada. If they are pissing and moaning about a little OSCE that isn't ideally timed to fit into their perfect little lives then too bad so sad! A lot of Immigrant physicians that have come in the past have completely retrained in order to practice in Canada. That takes dedication and real fortitude! Some were neurosurgeons in their home country and are now practicing family medicine in Canada and they aren't complaining. That is the kind of dedication and commitment to medicine that I like to see in an IMG!

[Robin Hood]

There are CSA IMGs studying in over 20 different countries. Some very developed, some less developed. Who are we to discriminate. Human rights say that we can't treat people differently based on where they come from. As far as the law is concerned a CSA IMG from Ireland is the same as an Irish IMG from Ireland. An IMG is an IMG is an IMG it doesn't matter where they studied or where they are from they need to go through a series of tests and make it through a lot of evaluation before I would be comfortable letting them lay their hands on me as a physician. If they are willing to spend a few years and make it through all of this then good on them and welcome to Canada. If they are pissing and moaning about a little OSCE that isn't ideally timed to fit into their perfect little lives then too bad so sad! A lot of Immigrant physicians that have come in the past have completely retrained in order to practice in Canada. That takes dedication and real fortitude! Some were neurosurgeons in their home country and are now practicing family medicine in Canada and they aren't complaining. That is the kind of dedication and commitment to medicine that I like to see in an IMG!

 

The Irish IMG wouldn't be eligible for CaRMS (Quebec and NL accept international students, but I don't know if this is restricted to some countries). Also, you can't put an IMG from a developped country (like the UK, Ireland, and Australia, we even recognize their FM rez) and an IMG from an underdevelopped country in the same basket.

[gongshow]

The Irish IMG wouldn't be eligible for CaRMS (Quebec and NL accept international students, but I don't know if this is restricted to some countries). Also, you can't put an IMG from a developped country (like the UK, Ireland, and Australia, we even recognize their FM rez) and an IMG from an underdevelopped country in the same basket.

 

I am pretty sure that you cannot discriminate between a Canadian citizen and a permanent resident immigrant. I think it is against human rights laws. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought this was part of the problems that CSAs are having/complaining about, since it means that they are treated no differently than a non-canadian IMG.

[Robin Hood]

I am pretty sure that you cannot discriminate between a Canadian citizen and a permanent resident immigrant. I think it is against human rights laws. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought this was part of the problems that CSAs are having/complaining about, since it means that they are treated no differently than a non-canadian IMG.

 

Sorry! I meant the Irish wouldn't be eligible to CaRMS without Canadian citizenship/PR.

[leviathan]

I am pretty sure that you cannot discriminate between a Canadian citizen and a permanent resident immigrant. I think it is against human rights laws. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought this was part of the problems that CSAs are having/complaining about, since it means that they are treated no differently than a non-canadian IMG.

I don't think that's an issue; everyone should have an equal opportunity at the IMG positions available. For many reasons, immigrant IMGs are rarely competitive enough to give Canadian IMGs a problem during CaRMS anyway, so I don't think anyone sees it as a problem.