International Medical Graudates Trying to Return

[leviathan]

WSU is a state school and is a fine school. This is no different from UBC charging exorbant amounts to foreigners for an UNDERGRADUATE (not medical) education to raise money. Also no different from McGill charging Americans a lot more than local kids to attend.

 

There is only one for-profit medical school in the US and that's a school in Denver. It is a DO school. It's owned and operated by the same dude that operates Ross University, one of the big four carib schools. All US MD schools have to be public or private not-for-profit.

Hey moo,

I'm sure it's a great school, as are any of the LCME accredited schools. What I was saying is that the Caribbean schools are not the only ones trying to make a buck off international students, and trying to make a buck off a student doesn't say anything about what the quality of teaching is like at that school. UBC does the same, I completely agree.

[concernedmedstudent]

What are the three tiers of which you speak? There is only one tier that I know of. Unless you mean probationary status--which I know three Canadian schools have recently been branded with in the past decade.

 

Sorry Moo, I might have been mistaken on the tiers. I heard this from a senior faculty member at a Canadian school. I just did a quick search, it must have been a rumor. I am by no means an expert on accreditation. Thanks for keeping me honest

[rswim]

Sorry Moo, I might have been mistaken on the tiers. I heard this from a senior faculty member at a Canadian school. I just did a quick search, it must have been a rumor. I am by no means an expert on accreditation. Thanks for keeping me honest

 

I have heard of these tiers also but I agree they are unsubstantiated. Infact the aamc states that they do not do any type of ranking.

 

Regardless it is a safe bet to say that the top 25 US medical and most Canadian schools are truly excellent and if you want to practice medicine in either of these countries your best bet is to study hard spend a few years volunteering and perhaps take a masters degree or more and eventually you'll get in. Nothing good comes easy. Top med schools recognize perseverance and hard work. If these students want it bad enough and are smart enough they will get in wherever they want.

 

It isn't fair that IMGs are weaving these emotional stories in the media. If these students are as intelligent as they claim they should have known what they are getting into when giving up on the Canadian system in search for greener pastures

[leviathan]

It isn't fair that IMGs are weaving these emotional stories in the media. If these students are as intelligent as they claim they should have known what they are getting into when giving up on the Canadian system in search for greener pastures

If you are as intelligent as you claim, then you shouldn't be using illogical arguments like either/or statements.

[RickRick]

If you are as intelligent as you claim, then you shouldn't be using illogical arguments like either/or statements.

 

His/Her argument is perfectly logical. I may not agree with it 100% but that doesn't mean it isn't logical. You seem to be caught up in semantics and grammar. I don't meant to attack you personally, but you really need to think about the content of your responses. You may be correct with regards to the use of either/or statements, but you come off as a arrogant prick, the kind that may look great on paper but does miserably when it comes to medical school interviews or patient interactions. Again, I apologize for going at you personally here, but some of your responses are just painful. When teaching pre-clinical med students or even premeds I don't care if the students are always right or not, but I can't stand those who come off as if they know it all. It is for this reason precisely that many students with 3.9+ GPAs struggle with getting into Canadian schools that put a large amount of weight on interviews that focus on communication, empathy and good old fashion people skills.

[RickRick]

They're accredited in all 50 states. Most states just accept their accreditation from the Netherlands / listing on the WHO. Other states require site-visits for quality assurance before giving accreditation, and they've had that accreditation by all those states (NY,Cali,Texas,Florida,I believe NJ).

 

The following schools are accredited by and members in good standing of the AAMC: https://members.aamc.org/eweb/DynamicPage.aspx?site=AAMC&webcode=AAMCOrgSearchResult&orgtype=Medical%20School

[leviathan]

His/Her argument is perfectly logical. I may not agree with it 100% but that doesn't mean it isn't logical. You seem to be caught up in semantics and grammar. I don't meant to attack you personally, but you really need to think about the content of your responses. You may be correct with regards to the use of either/or statements, but you come off as a arrogant prick, the kind that may look great on paper but does miserably when it comes to medical school interviews or patient interactions. Again, I apologize for going at you personally here, but some of your responses are just painful. When teaching pre-clinical med students or even premeds I don't care if the students are always right or not, but I can't stand those who come off as if they know it all. It is for this reason precisely that many students with 3.9+ GPAs struggle with getting into Canadian schools that put a large amount of weight on interviews that focus on communication, empathy and good old fashion people skills.

 

Ironically you just behaved in the very way you described about people you hate. Isn't that great, novelty account poster?

 

Either you're smart enough to get into a Canadian med school, OR ELSE the only other possible explanation that he could come up with for not being there is that they're not intelligent. Sorry "Rickrick", that IS illogical. It's called a false dilemma and it's extremely irritating. I don't recall ever calling out anyone's semantics or grammar. Logic is not the same thing. Actually, there was me correcting a bit of your semantics, since you didn't seem to understand what the word or concept of 'logic' is.

 

I enjoy a good debate, but I don't put up with people who cannot come here and use logical arguments supported by evidence to debate their side. Especially when it's from arrogant individuals claiming to be smarter than everyone else.

[leviathan]

The following schools are accredited by and members in good standing of the AAMC: https://members.aamc.org/eweb/DynamicPage.aspx?site=AAMC&webcode=AAMCOrgSearchResult&orgtype=Medical%20School

 

The AAMC is not involved with medical licensure of physicians.

[RickRick]

The following website should be checked out thoroughly by all pre medical student before deciding where to attend medical school.

 

http://www.carms.ca/eng/index.shtml

 

As long as students are informed and okay with the challenges that they face they should be allowed to make whatever decision they want about where to go to medical school. They should not assume that things will change dramatically in the future. The Canadian Gov't spends a lot of money to fund world class medical schools and has a process in place to select the best candidates. Whether or not these processes are ideal is the subject of another debate entirely. Regardless, the Gov't does and should continue to provide these students with a priority when it comes to matching into publicly funded post graduate positions that were designed to take students from Canadian undergraduate programs.

 

The unfortunate thing about medical schools in this country is that there are not enough seats for everyone who wants to become a doctor or even all those who are qualified to become a doc. This is the reality of a competitive profession. Some people win and some people lose, but this is the reality of life. Can you imagine if every athlete who loses at Olympic trials claimed that the system was unfair and that they should get to compete at the Olympics also? Its just not the way the world works.

[leviathan]

I think Canadians just want the best doctors for their job.

 

Using your analogy, the current state is like having an intensive competition for entrance to an exclusive Canadian Government Training Facility, for only the athletes who showed greatest potential. Then you get a Canadian who trained elsewhere in the world and can run the track 5 minutes shorter than anyone from the CGTF, but he's not allowed to compete at the Olympics (residency) for Team Canada.

[RickRick]

Ironically you just behaved in the very way you described about people you hate. Isn't that great, novelty account poster?

 

Either you're smart enough to get into a Canadian med school, OR ELSE the only other possible explanation that he could come up with for not being there is that they're not intelligent. Sorry "Rickrick", that IS illogical. It's called a false dilemma and it's extremely irritating. I don't recall ever calling out anyone's semantics or grammar. Logic is not the same thing. Actually, there was me correcting a bit of your semantics, since you didn't seem to understand what the word or concept of 'logic' is.

 

I enjoy a good debate, but I don't put up with people who cannot come here and use logical arguments supported by evidence to debate their side. Especially when it's from arrogant individuals claiming to be smarter than everyone else.

 

I am sorry that you feel that way. I am perfectly aware of what a false dilemma is, the point is, that you and most other readers should be able to imply what was meant by the statement. You are reading too far into this.

 

I highly recommend that you refrain from dissecting every word that comes from your attendings mouth because if you call them out in this same manner for nit picky details I can tell you from experience that this will not go over well.

 

I feel for you IMGs, you face a very tough battle to come back and practice medicine in this country. I think that it is great that they are increasing the number of seats for you, all I am suggesting is that students who are going abroad recognize the challenges that they will face.

 

I am also not a big fan of the recent tactic of going to the media to appeal to the publics emotional side. The only reason that this has had any traction at all is because many of these kids parents are experienced physicians or politicians and they continue to press their issue for selfish reasons including, as mentioned above, hiring a professional PR firm to push their side of the story. We need to do what is best to maintain the quality and integrity of our healthcare system. Very few doctors would argue otherwise, unless of course they have a vested interest because their children or nephews etc are currently studying abroad.

[RickRick]

I think Canadians just want the best doctors for their job.

 

Using your analogy, the current state is like having an intensive competition for entrance to an exclusive Canadian Government Training Facility, for only the athletes who showed greatest potential. Then you get a Canadian who trained elsewhere in the world and can run the track 5 minutes shorter than anyone from the CGTF, but he's not allowed to compete at the Olympics (residency) for Team Canada.

 

Unfortunately leviathan it doesn't work that way. If you don't make it at trials you don't get a second chance and a third and a fourth, if you did, then trials would be meaningless.

 

I understand where you are coming from and if you want to use hockey as an analogy, Minnesotta, Carolina and Buffulo are all 6-3-1 in their last 10 games. Florida and Detroit on the other hand are 2-3-5 and 4-4-2 in their last 10. Guess who is going to the playoffs? Florida and Buffalo.

 

It isn't a perfect analogy I'll admit and you are right in the end we just want to have the best docs. The way it stands right now though we have no way of thoroughly evaluating the competency of IMGs. I think that one thing a lot of medical students fail to understand is that a lot more goes into being a doctor than acing a few exams and getting through a few standardized OSCEs. By the time Canadian Medical Students finish they will of had 100s of quantitative and qualitative assessments from numerous Canadian physicians to assess their overall competency. IMGs may have gone through a very similar process but there is just no way of knowing exactly what goes on at 100s of international schools throughout the world and it is unreasonable to expect that Canadian program directors should figure out the details of every single program from which an IMG may apply from.

[workinghard]

I am going to have to agree that IMG's need to stop whining.

 

I have had the pleasure of working with several IMG's, from different locations. There are absolutely some schools that are superior to others. I have noted, however, that many of the students from the Carribean schools lack clinical experience. They don't know how to do functional tasks, such as dictate, or write notes. I realize that is a broad and sweeping statement, but it is a trend I have noted, several residents have noted and attendings have stated. There are some that are great, but those are rare.

 

In terms of the whole CaRMS deal...it sounds harsh to say, but if you are so hell bent on working in Canada, perhaps moving to do your med school is not the best idea. I myself did not get in on my first try. I do not come from a rich family by any means. But I knew I wanted to stay in Canada to complete my med school. Rather than attend a school abroad, which I would get into without hassle, I chose to take a year, work full-time, and work on my CV and application. I got in on my second application round. The point is, if you really want to stay here, don't give up and move away just so you can earn your MD ASAP. If that's the choice you make, you really can't whine about the whole CaRMS process and not matching here.

[leviathan]

I am sorry that you feel that way. I am perfectly aware of what a false dilemma is, the point is, that you and most other readers should be able to imply what was meant by the statement. You are reading too far into this.

No, his statement was pretty clear to me and was indeed a false dilemma. Sure though, tell me what he *really* meant by his statement that either you're smart enough to get into Canada or you're not intelligent? It seemed like a very narrow-minded evaluation of the situation, but maybe I misread the true meaning of that.

 

I highly recommend that you refrain from dissecting every word that comes from your attendings mouth because if you call them out in this same manner for nit picky details I can tell you from experience that this will not go over well.

So if a patient comes into the ED with ripping chest pain radiating to his back, with discordant BPs in his arms, and my attending gives the false dilemma, "either he's having an MI, or he's fine." And the attending orders a 12 lead and does serial trops and they're negative...I should say, you're absolutely right, he must be fine? That's not nit-picking as you claim; that's a misleading statement that needs to be addressed, just like the ones made earlier. Claiming you are right after setting up a false pretense and proving it wrong does not make you right. Sorry, that just doesn't make any sense.

[rswim]

I am going to have to agree that IMG's need to stop whining.

 

I have had the pleasure of working with several IMG's, from different locations. There are absolutely some schools that are superior to others. I have noted, however, that many of the students from the Carribean schools lack clinical experience. They don't know how to do functional tasks, such as dictate, or write notes. I realize that is a broad and sweeping statement, but it is a trend I have noted, several residents have noted and attendings have stated. There are some that are great, but those are rare.

 

In terms of the whole CaRMS deal...it sounds harsh to say, but if you are so hell bent on working in Canada, perhaps moving to do your med school is not the best idea. I myself did not get in on my first try. I do not come from a rich family by any means. But I knew I wanted to stay in Canada to complete my med school. Rather than attend a school abroad, which I would get into without hassle, I chose to take a year, work full-time, and work on my CV and application. I got in on my second application round. The point is, if you really want to stay here, don't give up and move away just so you can earn your MD ASAP. If that's the choice you make, you really can't whine about the whole CaRMS process and not matching here.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head and that your opinion is shared by the general Canadian student body. Unfortunately it is a tough statement to make without sounding arrogant. Also Canadian medical students tend to be quite humble and politically correct so their opinions are often kept to themselves which means that the media is only getting half of the story

[leviathan]

It isn't a perfect analogy I'll admit and you are right in the end we just want to have the best docs. The way it stands right now though we have no way of thoroughly evaluating the competency of IMGs. I think that one thing a lot of medical students fail to understand is that a lot more goes into being a doctor than acing a few exams and getting through a few standardized OSCEs. By the time Canadian Medical Students finish they will of had 100s of quantitative and qualitative assessments from numerous Canadian physicians to assess their overall competency. IMGs may have gone through a very similar process but there is just no way of knowing exactly what goes on at 100s of international schools throughout the world and it is unreasonable to expect that Canadian program directors should figure out the details of every single program from which an IMG may apply from.

Which is why in an equal opportunity match, CMGs will still match over IMGs in almost every circumstance. This is how the US system works and it seems to work well for them.

 

The only difference is when an exceptional IMG is faced up against a terrible CMG, then that IMG may actually earn the position. It might provide a little stimulus to work harder for the less motivated CMGs who go through a medical school system with little to no objective evaluations, pass/fail grading, no licensing exams, yet a virtually guaranteed residency spot.

[RickRick]

No, his statement was pretty clear to me and was indeed a false dilemma. Sure though, tell me what he *really* meant by his statement that either you're smart enough to get into Canada or you're not intelligent? It seemed like a very narrow-minded evaluation of the situation, but maybe I misread the true meaning of that.

 

 

So if a patient comes into the ED with ripping chest pain radiating to his back, with discordant BPs in his arms, and my attending gives the false dilemma, "either he's having an MI, or he's fine." And the attending orders a 12 lead and does serial trops and they're negative...I should say, you're absolutely right, he must be fine? That's not nit-picking as you claim; that's a misleading statement that needs to be addressed, just like the ones made earlier. Claiming you are right after setting up a false pretense and proving it wrong does not make you right. Sorry, that just doesn't make any sense.

 

I am glad you don't work in my hospital and that I will never have to try and teach you anything. Your ER example is an excellent one, but if you were to sarcastically make a comment like that to your senior attending regardless of what he said and or meant you would and should be shut down. Have a little respect. Perhaps that attending was meaning to draw your attention to the most likely or important issue, but by taking his every word literally you will miss out on all of the other potential diagnoses.

 

My whole point is don't be a prick even if you are smart. Make arguments that refute the facts not the sentence structure.

 

If I were a betting man, I would say that you have a sparkling GPA and test scores, as for your personality and whether or not you are the kind of person I would want to have as my colleague at 3am....

[leviathan]

The point is, if you really want to stay here, don't give up and move away just so you can earn your MD ASAP. If that's the choice you make, you really can't whine about the whole CaRMS process and not matching here.

Let's take a HUGE step back and focus on what the actual debate was, because what you just said is not the issue.

 

The problem with the CaRMS process is that it's not allowing access to the best suited IMGs for IMG positions. I don't ever recall any statements in the media about IMGs feeling like they *deserve* a spot in Canada. Just a fair chance at applying to the IMG spots that exist.

[RickRick]

Which is why in an equal opportunity match, CMGs will still match over IMGs in almost every circumstance. This is how the US system works and it seems to work well for them.

 

The only difference is when an exceptional IMG is faced up against a terrible CMG, then that IMG may actually earn the position. It might provide a little stimulus to work harder for the less motivated CMGs who go through a medical school system with little to no objective evaluations, pass/fail grading, no licensing exams, yet a virtually guaranteed residency spot.

 

Consider the stress that your suggestion would put on program directors. You can't expect them to sift through 3500 more applications. These people are physicians who are extremely busy. Canadian schools are competitive to get into for a reason.....because they provide the best route to become an excellent Canadian trained doctor.

[Mashmetoo]

I am glad you don't work in my hospital and that I will never have to try and teach you anything. ...

 

My whole point is don't be a prick even if you are smart. Make arguments that refute the facts not the sentence structure.

 

If I were a betting man, I would say that you have a sparkling GPA and test scores, as for your personality and whether or not you are the kind of person I would want to have as my colleague at 3am....

 

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy.

 

Examples:

"You can't believe John when he says the proposed policy would help the economy. He doesn't even have a job."

I am glad you don't work in my hospital and that I will never have to try and teach you anything.

 

"Make arguments that refute the facts not the sentence structure. "

- I don't think that you are grasping the concept that once you make a logically fallacious argument - your entire argument falls apart, and people will not take you seriously. It's got nothing to do with sentence structure.

 

It's like saying 1+1 = 3. A false statement. Wrong.

 

And then to have to continue arguing when your argument is clearly a logical fallacy, while acting like there's nothing wrong with it, makes you look like an incredibly dishonest individual.

[concernedmedstudent]

Let's take a HUGE step back and focus on what the actual debate was, because what you just said is not the issue.

 

The problem with the CaRMS process is that it's not allowing access to the best suited IMGs for IMG positions. I don't ever recall any statements in the media about IMGs feeling like they *deserve* a spot in Canada. Just a fair chance at applying to the IMG spots that exist.

 

The news articles have tried to paint the picture that IMGs are so hard done by and that Canadian medical students are "the lucky ones". This was offensive to a lot of hard working Canadian medical students who worked their butts off to get in, some applying 6 or 7 times!

 

This same news story went on to claim that all IMGs want is a chance to compete.

 

The reality is that every Canadian has a chance to compete to become a doctor, that competition is called the medical school application process. If at first you don't succeed try try try again! That is the beautiful thing about the process, you can try again.

 

A lot of kids want to grow up to be astronauts, very few of them actually make it, and if they don't they deal with it and find other careers. Why is medicine so different? Why do some people feel like they are entitled to become doctors in Canada? It just isn't a reality. If you can make it into a Canadian Medical school then you can become a Canadian doctor. For some LUCKY IMGs we have a few extra spots because we have doctor shortages in SOME communities in SOME specialties. These are the lucky ones.

 

Regardless leviathan, I respect your fight, you have been a one man army out there on the blogs today!

[concernedmedstudent]

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy.

 

Examples:

"You can't believe John when he says the proposed policy would help the economy. He doesn't even have a job."

I am glad you don't work in my hospital and that I will never have to try and teach you anything.

 

"Make arguments that refute the facts not the sentence structure. "

- I don't think that you are grasping the concept that once you make a logically fallacious argument - your entire argument falls apart, and people will not take you seriously. It's got nothing to do with sentence structure.

 

It's like saying 1+1 = 3. A false statement. Wrong.

 

And then to have to continue arguing when your argument is clearly a logical fallacy, while acting like there's nothing wrong with it, makes you look like an incredibly dishonest individual.

 

Haha you are hilarious, where do you get this from? Although totally ridiculous, and completely off topic, you do write some entertaining stuff.

[anon1234]

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy.

 

Examples:

"You can't believe John when he says the proposed policy would help the economy. He doesn't even have a job."

I am glad you don't work in my hospital and that I will never have to try and teach you anything.

 

"Make arguments that refute the facts not the sentence structure. "

- I don't think that you are grasping the concept that once you make a logically fallacious argument - your entire argument falls apart, and people will not take you seriously. It's got nothing to do with sentence structure.

 

It's like saying 1+1 = 3. A false statement. Wrong.

 

And then to have to continue arguing when your argument is clearly a logical fallacy, while acting like there's nothing wrong with it, makes you look like an incredibly dishonest individual.

 

you're so intelligent that it hurts my head. this is not sarcasm btw, i'm serious, lol, it's a compliment! super smart.

[leviathan]

I am glad you don't work in my hospital and that I will never have to try and teach you anything. Your ER example is an excellent one, but if you were to sarcastically make a comment like that to your senior attending regardless of what he said and or meant you would and should be shut down. Have a little respect. Perhaps that attending was meaning to draw your attention to the most likely or important issue, but by taking his every word literally you will miss out on all of the other potential diagnoses.

 

My whole point is don't be a prick even if you are smart. Make arguments that refute the facts not the sentence structure.

 

If I were a betting man, I would say that you have a sparkling GPA and test scores, as for your personality and whether or not you are the kind of person I would want to have as my colleague at 3am....

Rick, sometimes people are going to disagree with you. If you only want to deal with people in your life who are like your lapdogs then you'll never learn anything. Addressing someone's comment which said "either you're in a Canadian med school or you're dumb/incompetent/lazy" and explaining why this is illogical IS refuting it with facts. I didn't tell him he spelled a word wrong, or ended his sentence with a preposition. I'm curious though, how would you respond to him then?

 

I will not respond to your insulting comments about my personality. I'm a pretty easy going person, and I have the utmost respect for my colleagues. For me, if someone disagrees with me, I don't have a problem working with them at 3am. But if someone is disrespectful, I won't let that slide and I will address that issue.

[leviathan]

Consider the stress that your suggestion would put on program directors. You can't expect them to sift through 3500 more applications. These people are physicians who are extremely busy. Canadian schools are competitive to get into for a reason.....because they provide the best route to become an excellent Canadian trained doctor.

It wouldn't be a bad idea if Canada started using more objective measurements to grade their applicants, like the US does. The US uses the USMLE scores as initial bottlenecks to sift through all the applicants, for example.

 

The news articles have tried to paint the picture that IMGs are so hard done by and that Canadian medical students are "the lucky ones". This was offensive to a lot of hard working Canadian medical students who worked their butts off to get in, some applying 6 or 7 times!

While I admit this is pretty outlandish, a LARGE part of getting into Canadian schools is luck. That's exactly why people often have to apply so many times. Some people would rather go abroad than wait years without any guarantee. Either way, both groups of people end up facing a bottleneck at some point in their medical careers.

 

Why do some people feel like they are entitled to become doctors in Canada? It just isn't a reality. If you can make it into a Canadian Medical school then you can become a Canadian doctor. For some LUCKY IMGs we have a few extra spots because we have doctor shortages in SOME communities in SOME specialties. These are the lucky ones.

You're absolutely right, nobody has a RIGHT to be a doctor. However, if you have completed your medical training, we should have the right to access the same limited IMG spots as everyone else. Meaning, bump the OSCE up to a time that is accessible before CaRMS begins. If this group is arguing that all international students should be allowed to get a residency spot, then I disagree.