Representative Assembly resolution May 2012 SMA

[Mourning Cloak]

The following resolution cropped up at the Saskatchewan Medical Association Representative Assembly:

 

That the previous SMA motion stating: "That the College of Medicine and Saskatchewan government provide international medical graduates opportunity to apply for the CaRMS 1st iteration positions for all specialty training positions" be rescinded and that the SMA work with the College of Medicine, the SMSS, and the Saskatchewan Government to create a CaRMS matching position statement that will best serve the needs of the Saskatchewan people."

 

Anybody in Saskatchewan know what's up?

[cardiomegaly]

sounds like they're going a similar direction as Manitoba?

[TwinCities]

sounds like they're going a similar direction as Manitoba?

I don't get it, does the motion wish to deny IMGs the chance of getting matched, or encourage it further? Please explain...

[Birdy]

I don't get it, does the motion wish to deny IMGs the chance of getting matched, or encourage it further? Please explain...

 

My understanding of it is that they won't allow IMGs in on the first round of the match, they can only go for the 'left over' positions, under this resolution.

 

That's how I understood it, anyway.

[lost__in__space]

My understanding of it is that they won't allow IMGs in on the first round of the match, they can only go for the 'left over' positions, under this resolution.

 

That's how I understood it, anyway.

 

This is how it should be. I don't understand why anyone would think it should be different.

[aaronjw]

This is how it should be. I don't understand why anyone would think it should be different.

 

Why? Because when it comes to health care, or any industry for that matter, it should be the best person available for the position that gets the position.

 

If am IMG can demonstrate they're better than a CMG then the IMG should get the position.

[NutritionRunner]

Why? Because when it comes to health care, or any industry for that matter, it should be the best person available for the position that gets the position.

 

If am IMG can demonstrate they're better than a CMG then the IMG should get the position.

 

Well, Canadian medical education is HIGHLY subsidized. So Canadian graduates should have first priority so that some of that highly subsidized education is put to use. How foolish would it be to have spent all that money educating Canadian MDs, only to have them not able to secure residency positions because a large number of IMGs were offered those positions instead?

 

I think most Canadian taxpayers would be greatly upset if the money that is used to fund medical education in this country ended up being a waste because Canadian graduates couldn't secure Canadian residency positions.

[aaronjw]

Well, Canadian medical education is HIGHLY subsidized. So Canadian graduates should have first priority so that some of that highly subsidized education is put to use. How foolish would it be to have spent all that money educating Canadian MDs, only to have them not able to secure residency positions because a large number of IMGs were offered those positions instead?

 

I think most Canadian taxpayers would be greatly upset if the money that is used to fund medical education in this country ended up being a waste because Canadian graduates couldn't secure Canadian residency positions.

 

Well I also believe medical education in Canada should cost more but, speaking as a taxpayer who has paid more than his fair share over the years, I'd rather a more qualified IMG than a subpar CMG - in other words, best candidate for the position and I tend to believe Canadian citizens would prefer to be treated by the best possible person than a default CMG.

[seeking1]

Well I also believe medical education in Canada should cost more but, speaking as a taxpayer who has paid more than his fair share over the years, I'd rather a more qualified IMG than a subpar CMG - in other words, best candidate for the position and I tend to believe Canadian citizens would prefer to be treated by the best possible person than a default CMG.

 

This is a completely false competition, however. Once you train an IMG in Canada, there is no promise that they will not pick up and leave for their home country. Essentially, you may be subsidizing another country's doctors.

 

The USA is smart about this: they take poorer countries' eligible applicants for med school, then convince them to stay by providing them a better life and lots of money, effectively robbing the other country of a doctor.

 

Cutting back on subsidies for medical education is the worst idea possible. Few, if any, applicants from Canada have the ability to fully pay off a medical education. Debt is unavoidable. Now imagine trying to get an IMG to fully pay off a Canadian med school education.

 

EDIT:

More on the topic.

 

Canada stealing South Africa's Doctors

 

NY Times - America Stealing World's Doctors

 

The Guardian - America Stealing World's Doctors

[apache]

seriously… **** this, i remember writing out a complex solution to this a long time ago… all img's born abroad pass a cultural osce, need perfect toefl, qe 1, most have usmle 1 and 2, ee, osce… every exam a canadian student has and more…

 

-cut med school spots by 25 percent… seriously

-all img's (both from canada, and those born abroad) are eligible, round 1

we kick out the 700 foreign sponsored (the country buy canadian residency positions to train their physicians, and the physician leaves when done training), canadian md's are expected to function at an r1 level… most international img's that we would offer spots too can function far above that, many at the attending and higher level (we hire many neurologist fellows from pakistan for example and pay them yr 6 and 7 residents pay to do attendings work… cheaper than hiring canadian neurologists)

-we make family med img's pay the same ammount the foreign country pays gov canada etc. to train the resident… banks loan of course (still sounding ethical to img's (my proposed make them pay method, it's only in response to the arguments i get that the other countries gifts are a financial asset… so lets neutralize it) and surprised we waste residency positions by taking fish instead of teaching people how to fish, so to speak…) BELIEVE ME, it's way more ethical than the jobs we promise them now… only to **** them over once they get here.) on a side note, i should add that most foreign img's who finally get a spot are canadian citizens because theyve been trying so long… and want nothing more than to practice in canada

 

guess what, maybe that makes it harder for you to get into med school… if that pisses you off, say it… otherwise… here's your argument:

 

you shifted from first, the cost of the education, the financial investment so to speak… to the value of the knowledge people get from medical education… to how much we spend to give this knowledge… finally, to the efficient use of money

 

cost of education is high, img's cost nothing to educate… save money

img's have subspecialized knowledge base, and function at higher level than most m4's, at least… more efficient resident… often creme de la crop candidates (if we were meritocratic in carms… and foreign img's were allowed even playing field… watch out, the top 10 percent of foreign img's could already be professors of medicine.

 

 

Well, Canadian medical education is HIGHLY subsidized. So Canadian graduates should have first priority so that some of that highly subsidized education is put to use. How foolish would it be to have spent all that money educating Canadian MDs, only to have them not able to secure residency positions because a large number of IMGs were offered those positions instead?

 

I think most Canadian taxpayers would be greatly upset if the money that is used to fund medical education in this country ended up being a waste because Canadian graduates couldn't secure Canadian residency positions.

[apache]

when you're a canadian citizen, well, you sort of have to pay your debt, don't you… my room mate has talked in front of the ****ing prime minister, invited… ****ing house of commons for gods sakes, and ill be frank, average canadian grad is **** compared to very good img… and almost all img's stay here… it takes 10 years before you get a license, if you're that ****ing lucky 1 percent… you have a canadian citizenship and fam by then

 

Now imagine trying to get an IMG to fully pay off a Canadian med school education.

 

EDIT:

More on the topic.

 

Canada stealing South Africa's Doctors

 

NY Times - America Stealing World's Doctors

 

The Guardian - America Stealing World's Doctors

[apache]

another great idea… seriously… people need to put their ****ing money where their mouth is, and people need to start hiring based on current skill, not inferences (pass/fail bull****… or in gen intern… like no meaningful observations of clinical skill… you get that after 10 yrs… o but u already matched to specialty z, well, o well, u wud be a world leader in this field, but we gave it to some promising student z in 4th yr who was really enthusiastic… he didn't turn out so well)

 

The match is stupid. Re-instate the general internship, open the residency pool to every MD, and you will truly have a contest between the best of the best.

[bloh]

-cut med school spots by 25 percent… seriously

-all img's (both from canada, and those born abroad) are eligible, round 1

we kick out the 700 foreign sponsored (the country buy canadian residency positions to train their physicians, and the physician leaves when done training),

 

My understanding is that these spots are sold after CARMs. They actually need to be filled or the hospital will stay understaffed. Who will be on call if you don't have enough residents?

[apache]

you do… didn't i sort of explain that… the whole get the img to pay for funding themselves (which banks will happily loan)… theyre actually usually sold before carms… which means less competitive specialties for those cmg's we all love

 

 

My understanding is that these spots are sold after CARMs. They actually need to be filled or the hospital will stay understaffed. Who will be on call if you don't have enough residents?

[Mourning Cloak]

I really didn't start this thread to incite to saber rattling and foul language.

 

Perhaps unless anyone actually knows anything, we could tone the bombast down a bit . . . .

[aaronjw]

So tell me, once you train a CMG what is the promise that they'll stay in Canada to practice? Answer: none.

 

Sources:

 

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=04c4d089-35f5-4427-b78d-dae67df07bec

 

http://www.canadianmedicaljournal.ca/content/161/8/1028.full

 

(lots more exist but posting from iPad is cumbersome)

 

All Canadian applicants have the ability to pay off their medical education with relative ease. Yes, some may need to delay their BMW or Mansion purchase but it's certainly quite doable otherwise banks wouldn't trip over themselves to loan med students money.

 

This is a completely false competition, however. Once you train an IMG in Canada, there is no promise that they will not pick up and leave for their home country. Essentially, you may be subsidizing another country's doctors.

 

The USA is smart about this: they take poorer countries' eligible applicants for med school, then convince them to stay by providing them a better life and lots of money, effectively robbing the other country of a doctor.

 

Cutting back on subsidies for medical education is the worst idea possible. Few, if any, applicants from Canada have the ability to fully pay off a medical education. Debt is unavoidable. Now imagine trying to get an IMG to fully pay off a Canadian med school education.

 

EDIT:

More on the topic.

 

Canada stealing South Africa's Doctors

 

NY Times - America Stealing World's Doctors

 

The Guardian - America Stealing World's Doctors

[apache]

sorry, ive met hundreds of these people… i know a lot, i would never think it was such an injustice if i wasn't roommates with one of their former leaders… u hear these stories n ur like, these stories, and are like, this is absolutely awful… plus, yeah i know all the politics, it sort of seeps in via osmosis as ud imagine

 

I really didn't start this thread to incite to saber rattling and foul language.

 

Perhaps unless anyone actually knows anything, we could tone the bombast down a bit . . . .

[Robin Hood]

Canadian med students work HARD to get in and to get their MDs, so they should be rewarded for their hard work by having a near-guaranteed chance of getting a residency.

Also, why should we add another stress for CMGs to get into a rez spot, getting into med school is already too stressful, now CMGs will need to endure more stress to get a residency position, withoutwhich, their MD is useless.

[apache]

you missed the part where i said cut subsidized md spots by 25 percent

 

Canadian med students work HARD to get in and to get their MDs, so they should be rewarded for their hard work by having a near-guaranteed chance of getting a residency.

Also, why should we add another stress for CMGs to get into a rez spot, getting into med school is already too stressful, now CMGs will need to endure more stress to get a residency position, withoutwhich, their MD is useless.

[aaronjw]

Canadian med students work HARD to get in and to get their MDs, so they should be rewarded for their hard work by having a near-guaranteed chance of getting a residency.

Also, why should we add another stress for CMGs to get into a rez spot, getting into med school is already too stressful, now CMGs will need to endure more stress to get a residency position, withoutwhich, their MD is useless.

 

 

This self entitlement is why Canada is losing it's competiveness in all categories from business to education to technology and more. Best of the best should rewarded with positions regardless of place of birth.

 

Gotta love Canadians. Always wanting someone to take care of them.

 

Oh, and if you don't like the process or find it stressful here's a solution for you: don't apply. Pretty simple eh?

[lost__in__space]

Seeing how heavily subsidized medical training is by the Canadian government, it's not fair to Canadians who pay into this fund, not to receive benefits from it and then have an IMG who hasn't paid a dime in taxes reap the benefits instead.

 

If IMGs had to pay an equivalent price as the Canadian government does to educate a CMG then I'd be all for having IMGs come and secure residency positions. Provided that the IMG is capable. There are many foreign educated physicians that are indeed amazing and they should be welcomed to Canada. However, we all know as fact that certain countries and certain schools don't compare to the education CMGs have and they should not be allowed to practice in Canada.

 

This is coming from a person who grew up in a small "developing nation" where the medical school system there is a joke and a half compared to Canada.

[A-Stark]

This self entitlement is why Canada is losing it's competiveness in all categories from business to education to technology and more. Best of the best should rewarded with positions regardless of place of birth.

 

Gotta love Canadians. Always wanting someone to take care of them.

 

Oh, and if you don't like the process or find it stressful here's a solution for you: don't apply. Pretty simple eh?

 

It's hardly "entitlement" to expect that after four-years of study you will be able to continue your training in (roughly) the discipline you prefer. Residency is not exactly a vacation.

[aaronjw]

It's hardly "entitlement" to expect that after four-years of study you will be able to continue your training in (roughly) the discipline you prefer. Residency is not exactly a vacation.

 

And be better than an IMG and I'd imagine you'll be able to do just that.

 

The point want want the best of the best and I could careless if that's an IMG or CMG. If there's an IMG that's better than a CMG then that person deserves the residency position and vice versa.

[aaronjw]

You're extending the argument way beyond the realm of reasonable context.

 

Of course there are good schools and bad schools and I'd imagine those in our governing bodies know which ones those are so if an IMG is from an equal medical school then why shouldn't they be put on the same level of consideration as a CMG?

 

Seeing how heavily subsidized medical training is by the Canadian government, it's not fair to Canadians who pay into this fund, not to receive benefits from it and then have an IMG who hasn't paid a dime in taxes reap the benefits instead.

 

If IMGs had to pay an equivalent price as the Canadian government does to educate a CMG then I'd be all for having IMGs come and secure residency positions. Provided that the IMG is capable. There are many foreign educated physicians that are indeed amazing and they should be welcomed to Canada. However, we all know as fact that certain countries and certain schools don't compare to the education CMGs have and they should not be allowed to practice in Canada.

 

This is coming from a person who grew up in a small "developing nation" where the medical school system there is a joke and a half compared to Canada.

[lost__in__space]

You're extending the argument way beyond the realm of reasonable context.

 

Of course there are good schools and bad schools and I'd imagine those in our governing bodies know which ones those are so if an IMG is from an equal medical school then why shouldn't they be put on the same level of consideration as a CMG?

 

How am I extending it beyond a reasonable context? You yourself just said that you imagine our governing bodies knows which schools are equivalent to Canadian schools and which ones aren't. That's the point I'm making, IMGs are not all equally qualified and there should be some provisions in place to screen against those not qualified. That seems pretty reasonable of a thing to say / prudent measure to do.

 

Also if we do eventually let IMGs match first round, and there is a massive influx of equally qualified IMGs as CMGs, what do we do then? Just let IMGs take spots that CMGs normally would be filling and have our CMGs just be sh*t out of luck? And then have our CMGs scramble to match to other countries, countries that may or may not have residency positions of their own for IMGs?

 

I think you need to be more reasonable about this argument. It may be "protectionist" to reserve residency spots for CMGs, but why should our citizens have to seek out residency spots anywhere else but their own country?