Irish Schools Questions & Maybe Just a Hello

[singing]

Just wanted to state from the get go, no asinine stigma on IMGs or whatever we label ourselves please. Everyone knows it's tremendously expensive and if anyone wanted to be a doctor here, you would (hopefully) consider that most have the brains and the grit to make that kind of decision. Or live with the consequences being a good doctor to non-Canadian or American people. Oh woe, to help non North Americans as a doctor...

 

That being said, I'm one of those non-traditional students who've been doing humanities all his life, particularly history, political theory, anthro subjects. Somehow, one thing or another, life took it's course and a crazy idea jumped into my brain that I should pursue medicine. I'm also back getting my prereqs and realizing time is ticking with ridiculous levels of competition and misleading information everywhere. That being said, my best friend is in the UK doing medicine and I have recently seriously started considering Ireland, esp. due to their Atlantic Bridging Program. My friend tells me England is more haggling in terms of getting back than Ireland somehow. Btw, no EU citizenship or anything.

 

I've read through some of the past posts, but not sure how competitive Ireland is. Presently, my GPA is sitting uncomfortably around 3.7 due to one horrendous exam and an average grade for Orgo. I'm taking my MCATs soon, but I'm sitting also uncomfortably around 30-33 on average. I have, I think, very good extracurriculars, but most have been non-science related. I know some would suggest DO, but does that really cut it? And yes, spending more time to boost GPA. Let's say I would like to start a new chapter in my life sooner than later. If I do later, I'll have a few more letters behind my name that might include a PhD. That isn't a bad prospective, but a very time consuming, mentally and emotionally fatiguing one.

 

What do you think? I know this is just a variation of "What are my chances", but I've read through some of the descriptions of medical student life in Ireland and serious thoughts on residency matches, and I'm sorely tempted to make that leap. Has there been some serious changes in the past year or two that makes going to Ireland even worse than before? I know I can bring my marks back up past 3.8 in one more year, but.... ugh.

 

Also, finances truly worry me. A co-signer is pretty tough for me and I would hope I don't have to go through that, but I would assume to get the maximum alleged 250,000, you would need to haggle through that process. Are there bank suggestions I've missed besides RBC and CIBC?

 

So, life eh? There's always 10 things to juggle.

 

Some serious heartfelt and honest advice would be appreciated. I'm asking politely for your time...

[Edict]

Just wanted to state from the get go, no asinine stigma on IMGs or whatever we label ourselves please. Everyone knows it's tremendously expensive and if anyone wanted to be a doctor here, you would (hopefully) consider that most have the brains and the grit to make that kind of decision. Or live with the consequences being a good doctor to non-Canadian or American people. Oh woe, to help non North Americans as a doctor...

 

That being said, I'm one of those non-traditional students who've been doing humanities all his life, particularly history, political theory, anthro subjects. Somehow, one thing or another, life took it's course and a crazy idea jumped into my brain that I should pursue medicine. I'm also back getting my prereqs and realizing time is ticking with ridiculous levels of competition and misleading information everywhere. That being said, my best friend is in the UK doing medicine and I have recently seriously started considering Ireland, esp. due to their Atlantic Bridging Program. My friend tells me England is more haggling in terms of getting back than Ireland somehow. Btw, no EU citizenship or anything.

 

I've read through some of the past posts, but not sure how competitive Ireland is. Presently, my GPA is sitting uncomfortably around 3.7 due to one horrendous exam and an average grade for Orgo. I'm taking my MCATs soon, but I'm sitting also uncomfortably around 30-33 on average. I have, I think, very good extracurriculars, but most have been non-science related. I know some would suggest DO, but does that really cut it? And yes, spending more time to boost GPA. Let's say I would like to start a new chapter in my life sooner than later. If I do later, I'll have a few more letters behind my name that might include a PhD. That isn't a bad prospective, but a very time consuming, mentally and emotionally fatiguing one.

 

What do you think? I know this is just a variation of "What are my chances", but I've read through some of the descriptions of medical student life in Ireland and serious thoughts on residency matches, and I'm sorely tempted to make that leap. Has there been some serious changes in the past year or two that makes going to Ireland even worse than before? I know I can bring my marks back up past 3.8 in one more year, but.... ugh.

 

Also, finances truly worry me. A co-signer is pretty tough for me and I would hope I don't have to go through that, but I would assume to get the maximum alleged 250,000, you would need to haggle through that process. Are there bank suggestions I've missed besides RBC and CIBC?

 

So, life eh? There's always 10 things to juggle.

 

Some serious heartfelt and honest advice would be appreciated. I'm asking politely for your time...

 

I think your grades and your potential MCAT score are good enough to apply to Canada and the States. I don't recommend going, but with that being said. You wouldn't be a fish dead in the water if you go, becuase you seem like the kind of person that is dedicated enough who residencies would want. Considering that you'll need to be taking out heavy loans though, it just doesn't seem like the best decision, not to mention you are already basically at the edge of competitiveness for Canadian schools and competitive for americans schools if you do well.

 

You won't have trouble getting into Ireland, they will most likely take you. However, so would the US if you do well on the MCAT. The US is a much safer bet than Ireland and a much better reason to take out loans.

[Mashmetoo]

Just wanted to state from the get go, no asinine stigma on IMGs or whatever we label ourselves please. Everyone knows it's tremendously expensive and if anyone wanted to be a doctor here, you would (hopefully) consider that most have the brains and the grit to make that kind of decision. Or live with the consequences being a good doctor to non-Canadian or American people. Oh woe, to help non North Americans as a doctor...

 

That being said, I'm one of those non-traditional students who've been doing humanities all his life, particularly history, political theory, anthro subjects. Somehow, one thing or another, life took it's course and a crazy idea jumped into my brain that I should pursue medicine. I'm also back getting my prereqs and realizing time is ticking with ridiculous levels of competition and misleading information everywhere. That being said, my best friend is in the UK doing medicine and I have recently seriously started considering Ireland, esp. due to their Atlantic Bridging Program. My friend tells me England is more haggling in terms of getting back than Ireland somehow. Btw, no EU citizenship or anything.

 

I've read through some of the past posts, but not sure how competitive Ireland is. Presently, my GPA is sitting uncomfortably around 3.7 due to one horrendous exam and an average grade for Orgo. I'm taking my MCATs soon, but I'm sitting also uncomfortably around 30-33 on average. I have, I think, very good extracurriculars, but most have been non-science related. I know some would suggest DO, but does that really cut it? And yes, spending more time to boost GPA. Let's say I would like to start a new chapter in my life sooner than later. If I do later, I'll have a few more letters behind my name that might include a PhD. That isn't a bad prospective, but a very time consuming, mentally and emotionally fatiguing one.

 

What do you think? I know this is just a variation of "What are my chances", but I've read through some of the descriptions of medical student life in Ireland and serious thoughts on residency matches, and I'm sorely tempted to make that leap. Has there been some serious changes in the past year or two that makes going to Ireland even worse than before? I know I can bring my marks back up past 3.8 in one more year, but.... ugh.

 

I simply don't understand why some Canadians question the validity of the DO degree.

 

Do you want to become an IMG?

Would you like to sign a 5 year ROS contract with a Canadian province if you match as an IMG?

Would you like this ROS contract to say that if you don't finish your 5 year obligation, you owe the government 100,000 CAN dollars for each year you owe?

Would you like to be limited in your elective rotations in Canadian medical schools to 4 weeks at most per school (vs 8 weeks as an AMG)?

Would you rather prefer to match with all the IMGs, CSAs in a small "1st iteration" pool, and not compete with the CMGs?

Would you prefer the honor of applying to 100+ programs in the US for a decent shot at matching, vs the 25-40 average applications for AMGs?

Would you like to go through a 1 month long IMG program assuming you did match in Canada, "bridging" the IMGs to the Canadian system, and being told that "you are NOT a doctor" in Canada?

 

If you'd like any of the above scenarios to be your reality, by all means, go for it.

[concernedmedstudent]

I simply don't understand why some Canadians question the validity of the DO degree.

 

Do you want to become an IMG?

Would you like to sign a 5 year ROS contract with a Canadian province if you match as an IMG?

Would you like this ROS contract to say that if you don't finish your 5 year obligation, you owe the government 100,000 CAN dollars for each year you owe?

Would you like to be limited in your elective rotations in Canadian medical schools to 4 weeks at most per school (vs 8 weeks as an AMG)?

Would you rather prefer to match with all the IMGs, CSAs in a small "1st iteration" pool, and not compete with the CMGs?

Would you prefer the honor of applying to 100+ programs in the US for a decent shot at matching, vs the 25-40 average applications for AMGs?

Would you like to go through a 1 month long IMG program assuming you did match in Canada, "bridging" the IMGs to the Canadian system, and being told that "you are NOT a doctor" in Canada?

 

If you'd like any of the above scenarios to be your reality, by all means, go for it.

 

Both options are available for students who are unable to make the cut in Canada. I don't think it is fair for IMGs to be bashing DOs or DOs to be bashing IMGs.

 

If you are willing to take a gamble with your money and education and you really want to be a doctor because for some reason you feel you are too smart for the other wonderful allied health professions then apply to either kind of program.

 

If you aren't into taking big risks consider other fulfilling and important healthcare fields - we need bright people to become RTs, PTs, SWs, RNs etc.

 

Far too often I have seen IMGs come in and treat our allied professionals poorly. They somehow think that their DO or international IMG status makes them better... when the reality is they probably didn't have any better grades or talents but were willing to take a huge risk -often because of their parents deep pockets.

 

Anyhow - now im bashing - shame on me. The original point of this response was to say that IMG or DO - you are taking a big risk - I don't think that one is necessarily better than the other - I've never looked at what letters (MD, MBBS, DO) follow the names of foreign trained physicians and I doubt if many canadians do.

[leviathan]

With a 3.7 gpa and 30+ MCAT, stick to Canada. No doubt about it. It would be a huge mistake to go to an international school.

[leviathan]

Both options are available for students who are unable to make the cut in Canada. I don't think it is fair for IMGs to be bashing DOs or DOs to be bashing IMGs.

 

If you are willing to take a gamble with your money and education and you really want to be a doctor because for some reason you feel you are too smart for the other wonderful allied health professions then apply to either kind of program.

 

If you aren't into taking big risks consider other fulfilling and important healthcare fields - we need bright people to become RTs, PTs, SWs, RNs etc.

 

Far too often I have seen IMGs come in and treat our allied professionals poorly. They somehow think that their DO or international IMG status makes them better... when the reality is they probably didn't have any better grades or talents but were willing to take a huge risk -often because of their parents deep pockets.

 

 

Anyhow - now im bashing - shame on me. The original point of this response was to say that IMG or DO - you are taking a big risk - I don't think that one is necessarily better than the other - I've never looked at what letters (MD, MBBS, DO) follow the names of foreign trained physicians and I doubt if many canadians do.

There's no question that DO is a better option than IMG for matching in the US, or just knowing you will match somewhere. For specifically matching in Canada it's probably debatable.

 

As for his comments: electives, it's going to be 4 weeks max at any school regardless of where you went. There just aren't enough spaces for longer terms. I would also not say you are the same as an AMG and can only apply to 25-40 positions, as you are a foreign citizen and thats a huge disadvantage. Also there are only orientation programs in Ontario AFAIK.

[A-Stark]

If you are willing to take a gamble with your money and education and you really want to be a doctor because for some reason you feel you are too smart for the other wonderful allied health professions then apply to either kind of program.

 

If you aren't into taking big risks consider other fulfilling and important healthcare fields - we need bright people to become RTs, PTs, SWs, RNs etc.

 

Far too often I have seen IMGs come in and treat our allied professionals poorly. They somehow think that their DO or international IMG status makes them better... when the reality is they probably didn't have any better grades or talents but were willing to take a huge risk -often because of their parents deep pockets.

 

This. Although RTs tend to be pretty frustrating from time to time...

[BoyInTheBubble]

I simply don't understand why some Canadians question the validity of the DO degree.

 

Do you want to become an IMG?

Would you like to sign a 5 year ROS contract with a Canadian province if you match as an IMG?

Would you like this ROS contract to say that if you don't finish your 5 year obligation, you owe the government 100,000 CAN dollars for each year you owe?

Would you like to be limited in your elective rotations in Canadian medical schools to 4 weeks at most per school (vs 8 weeks as an AMG)?

Would you rather prefer to match with all the IMGs, CSAs in a small "1st iteration" pool, and not compete with the CMGs?

Would you prefer the honor of applying to 100+ programs in the US for a decent shot at matching, vs the 25-40 average applications for AMGs?

Would you like to go through a 1 month long IMG program assuming you did match in Canada, "bridging" the IMGs to the Canadian system, and being told that "you are NOT a doctor" in Canada?

 

If you'd like any of the above scenarios to be your reality, by all means, go for it.

 

You're exaggerating paints a false picture. It's not that simple, and most of those statements are wrong.

 

The general message is true, but you could just suggest that DO is another acceptable alternative.

[Mourning Cloak]

Thoughts of someone who's actually been there, done that (ish):

 

http://asystoleisstable.blogspot.ca/search?updated-max=2012-06-22T00:50:00-07:00&max-results=10&start=50&by-date=false

 

(For the med students / residents out there, read May 23/13. You will laugh.)

[Mashmetoo]

You're exaggerating paints a false picture. It's not that simple, and most of those statements are wrong.

 

The general message is true, but you could just suggest that DO is another acceptable alternative.

 

Normally I'd respond with a lengthy, well thought out piece, with links and references and everything.... But I'm too busy studying for my MCCEE, doing my 8 weeks of elective rotations at the University of Toronto, being told that I'd make an excellent internist by the fellows at downtown TO hospital, applying to the 35 H1B sponsoring programs I found in the US, not worrying about taking the NAC osce, not worrying about having to take a stupid "IMG bridging program" in Ontario or wherever, not worrying about the return of service contract I have to sign as an IMG, polishing up my personal statements and ready to go vis-a-vis against CMGs vying for the same positions to be bothered to do that.

 

If this was 3 years ago, when I first started on these forums, then ya, I'd actually still give a crap, and try to convince people. Buuuuut, as a CC4, or OMSIV, or MSIV, or whathaveyou, I just don't give a crap anymore. I'd rather spent the time to expand COMSA, recruit more members, and organizing more seminars to reach the Canadian public, and increase the ranks of DOs in Canada that way.

 

Good day to you and your family.

[lost__in__space]

With a 3.7 gpa and 30+ MCAT, stick to Canada. No doubt about it. It would be a huge mistake to go to an international school.

 

Unfortunately it almost seems that candidates with these stats are a dime a dozen now. Unless his marks make weighting schemes for certain schools like Western (or course dropping at UofT), or he completes grad studies for a more holistic review at UofT, he/she is below average

[leviathan]

Unfortunately it almost seems that candidates with these stats are a dime a dozen now. Unless his marks make weighting schemes for certain schools like Western (or course dropping at UofT), or he completes grad studies for a more holistic review at UofT, he/she is below average

Still high enough to get in by applying and reapplying.

[Edict]

Still high enough to get in by applying and reapplying.

 

Isn't that good enough for US schools? I would also consider US schools.

[leviathan]

Yea, that is definitely also good for US schools especially since they've expanded their enrollment so much. If OP doesn't care about training in the US for residency given the fact that about half of US grads applying to CaRMS don't match (but i'm sure still match in the US).

[The Journey Man]

Yea, that is definitely also good for US schools especially since they've expanded their enrollment so much. If OP doesn't care about training in the US for residency given the fact that about half of US grads applying to CaRMS don't match (but i'm sure still match in the US).

 

I feel like this number is off. I don't think it was that low on the official reports, however nonetheless, its important to realize that almost all Canadians Ive known who graduate from the US applying to CaRMS often restrict themselves geographically.

 

For example, there are many people who simply apply to a few schools, rank one and don't match simply because they prefer many other US cities to Canadian ones. Very often people simply apply to Toronto or Vancouver and would rather live in Chicago or NYC if they can't get into their city of choice. Furthermore, many don't even do electives and apply to their home province just to see what happens.

 

Ive never heard of anyone who made an actual effort (doing 1-2 electives, applying more than 4 schools) not match in Canada coming from the US

[DocMC]

ignore.......

[leviathan]

I feel like this number is off. I don't think it was that low on the official reports, however nonetheless, its important to realize that almost all Canadians Ive known who graduate from the US applying to CaRMS often restrict themselves geographically.

 

For example, there are many people who simply apply to a few schools, rank one and don't match simply because they prefer many other US cities to Canadian ones. Very often people simply apply to Toronto or Vancouver and would rather live in Chicago or NYC if they can't get into their city of choice. Furthermore, many don't even do electives and apply to their home province just to see what happens.

 

Ive never heard of anyone who made an actual effort (doing 1-2 electives, applying more than 4 schools) not match in Canada coming from the US

 

I double checked CaRMS and looks like I was off, it is actually 23/33 who matched (70%), so a bit better. The point you raised is a possibility but there's no way to prove that. Like I said though, I'm sure most US grads match somewhere.