going all out for ophtho vs backing up?

[darknebula]

Hi everyone,

 

I was wondering what everyone thought of this. I want to go into ophthalmology but I also really liked internal medicine rotation and wouldn't mind doing it. But people tell me you have to go all out on ophtho with pre-Carms electives and that its dumb to back it up with internal coz the internal guys would see that you are really applying to ophtho and just backing up with them. WHat do you guys think?

 

Also, on a sidenote, any non-ophtho elective suggestions that will boost an application to ophtho programs? So far I am thinking Endo, infectious, CTU, plastics, neurology and neurosurgery.

[NLengr]

Hi everyone,

 

I was wondering what everyone thought of this. I want to go into ophthalmology but I also really liked internal medicine rotation and wouldn't mind doing it. But people tell me you have to go all out on ophtho with pre-Carms electives and that its dumb to back it up with internal coz the internal guys would see that you are really applying to ophtho and just backing up with them. WHat do you guys think?

 

Also, on a sidenote, any non-ophtho elective suggestions that will boost an application to ophtho programs? So far I am thinking Endo, infectious, CTU, plastics, neurology and neurosurgery.

 

The best boost to your ap is more optho electives. Face time is king. Don't waste a chance for an optho elective with something else. Unless it's after Xmas.

[schmitty]

The best boost to your ap is more optho electives. Face time is king. Don't waste a chance for an optho elective with something else. Unless it's after Xmas.

 

Be careful - I noticed some programs specifically stating that they will give preferences to students with no more than a set amount of elective time. U of T ophtho, e.g., says no more than 10 weeks elective time is preferred (they want more rounded applicants).

[ophtho_gunner]

Be careful - I noticed some programs specifically stating that they will give preferences to students with no more than a set amount of elective time. U of T ophtho, e.g., says no more than 10 weeks elective time is preferred (they want more rounded applicants).

 

Duh genius. 10 is the maximum number of weeks you can do in ophtho anyways.

[schmitty]

Duh genius. 10 is the maximum number of weeks you can do in ophtho anyways.

 

Well thanks for the information then.

[tooty]

Go all out. IM is no longer a backup specialty. It's too competitive for that. And you may even compromise your ophtho chances by dividing your attention.

[KennethToronto]

Be careful - I noticed some programs specifically stating that they will give preferences to students with no more than a set amount of elective time. U of T ophtho, e.g., says no more than 10 weeks elective time is preferred (they want more rounded applicants).

 

You can play that game. But I'm going to argue that by the time you are gearing up for CaRMS, you'll know those statements are bullsh!t

[Economist]

Go all out. IM is no longer a backup specialty. It's too competitive for that. And you may even compromise your ophtho chances by dividing your attention.

 

So for those aiming for competitive specialties, there is no back-up plan? That seems very reckless. What do those who don't match into competitive specialties do then if they went all out for one specialty...?

[Lactic Folly]

Well, lack of a backup specialty does not necessarily imply lack of a backup plan... whether that means considering backing up with a less competitive field, seeing what is left in the second round, applying to the US, or taking the year off and applying again.

[tooty]

I assumed internal was your only other interest. By all means back up with another specialty but make sure it's not competitive. From what I've seen, internal may demand too much of your effort to cultivate a realistic chance to match. There are plenty of easier specialties. You may also want consider backing up with 5-year programs to anticipate any transfer opportunities in the future. Residents do switch out, even for ophtho.

[Larrivee]

What are "easy" 5 year residencies to back up with? (and ones that don't use microscopes daily and are not psych, haha)

[tooty]

cardiac sx (but 6yr training), nucs and rad onc. Possibly medical genetics, PM&R, and PHPM without working out their numbers.

 

Maybe ortho. I'd anticipate that any discipline with dropping employment rates will have the inverse effect on Carms.

[rmorelan]

cardiac sx (but 6yr training) and rad onc, possibly medical genetics, PM&R, and PHPM without working out their numbers. Maybe ortho. I'd anticipate that any discipline with dropping employment rates will have an inverse effect on Carms.

 

I wonder if cardiac has only resulted in the loss of all applicants that are not hard core believers. I have a hard time accepting that the field would let even now anything but highly skilled people into it

[ophtho_gunner]

"those spots left in 2nd round."

 

Huh. There are no spots left in 2nd iteration for Ophtho whatsoever, not last year at least. And not the year before. And not the year before that.

 

The only valid backup option is;

1) apply to a less competitive specialty in 1st round

2) have research fellowship set up with a preceptor in case you do not match to ophtho and then try again in next year CaRMs.

 

Almost 1/3rd of ophtho residents have done a research fellowship before matching. Be prepared to go this route if ophtho is your only passion in medicine.

 

Certain fellowships are considered slam dunks for the next year applicants.

[rmorelan]

"those spots left in 2nd round."

 

Huh. There are no spots left in 2nd iteration for Ophtho whatsoever, not last year at least. And not the year before. And not the year before that.

 

The only valid backup option is;

1) apply to a less competitive specialty in 1st round

2) have research fellowship set up with a preceptor in case you do not match to ophtho and then try again in next year CaRMs.

 

Certain fellowships are considered slam dunks for the next year applicants.

 

curious about those - aren't they also incredibly difficult to get into as well?

 

always thought that was a rather interesting approach to things having effectively a research internship year prior to acceptance.

[ophtho_gunner]

curious about those - aren't they also incredibly difficult to get into as well?

 

always thought that was a rather interesting approach to things having effectively a research internship year prior to acceptance.

 

Not only they are very difficult to get but also some of those preceptors/supervisors/PIs ask you to NOT enter CaRMS or withdraw your application from CaRMs if you want to apply to their fellowship that year. If you do not want to withdraw from match, they wont consider your app.

 

But another caveat is that these slam dunks are mostly only at the school you do your research fellowship once you enter the match.

[tooty]

"those spots left in 2nd round."

 

Huh. There are no spots left in 2nd iteration for Ophtho whatsoever, not last year at least. And not the year before. And not the year before that.

 

If you're replying to lactic, she was talking about 2nd round non-ophtho spots.

[rmorelan]

Not only they are very difficult to get but also some of those preceptors/supervisors/PIs ask you to NOT enter CaRMS or withdraw your application from CaRMs if you want to apply to their fellowship that year. If you do not want to withdraw from match, they wont consider your app.

 

But another caveat is that these slam dunks are mostly only at the school you do your research fellowship once you enter the match.

 

yeah....and what are the odds of actually getting the fellowship? Ie being left high and dry without a fellowship AND congrats you just withdrew from CARMS 1st round this year.

[ArchEnemy]

Not only they are very difficult to get but also some of those preceptors/supervisors/PIs ask you to NOT enter CaRMS or withdraw your application from CaRMs if you want to apply to their fellowship that year. If you do not want to withdraw from match, they wont consider your app.

 

But another caveat is that these slam dunks are mostly only at the school you do your research fellowship once you enter the match.

 

Can they check if you have withdrawn from the Match or CaRMS?

[rmorelan]

Can they check if you have withdrawn from the Match or CaRMS?

 

directly no (from carms rules), but I imagine if you what ophtho they will know you at least didn't apply to that school, and if they ask around potentially any other school.

[Laika]

But another caveat is that these slam dunks are mostly only at the school you do your research fellowship once you enter the match.

 

Granted, it's a very small sample size, but I do know of two people who matched at programs different from where they did the fellowships.

[dh79]

cardiac sx (but 6yr training), nucs and rad onc. Possibly medical genetics, PM&R, and PHPM without working out their numbers.

 

Maybe ortho. I'd anticipate that any discipline with dropping employment rates will have the inverse effect on Carms.

 

Cardiac surgery programs do not usually take applications for second round. Programs would much rather go unmatched than to take an applicant who wouldn't succeed. This is true for both first and second round CV surg. The applicant numbers are low and first round match rates are high, but there is a lot of self selection.

 

To answer the OP; my personal opinion is that it's foolish not to back-up when applying to specialties with low match rates. Unless your strategy is to see what's in 2nd round. Often there are some unpredictable spaces unmatched, but remember not all of these programs will actually accept anybody, even if its posted for 2nd round.

[rmorelan]

Granted, it's a very small sample size, but I do know of two people who matched at programs different from where they did the fellowships.

 

everything with ophthalmology has a small sample size

[tooty]

Cardiac surgery programs do not usually take applications for second round. Programs would much rather go unmatched than to take an applicant who wouldn't succeed. This is true for both first and second round CV surg. The applicant numbers are low and first round match rates are high, but there is a lot of self selection.

 

What about the strong applicants with interest in both ophtho and cardiac sx, but ophtho > cardiac?

[dh79]

What about the strong applicants with interest in both ophtho and cardiac sx, but ophtho > cardiac?

 

If they were genuinely interested in cardiac and had experience (electives, research, reference letters) then I think they would have a good chance of matching in second round.

 

If they hadn't ever been to a cardiac OR and were just looking for any residency spot; there would be no chance.