Western Medical Science Vs York Biomedical Science

[Wartortle]

nvm

[Neurophilic]

A professor who's good at research is not necessarily good at teaching though. And I don't think that going to a mid-size university poses a significant barrier to finding research opportunities, though course selection will be more sparse.

Yeah this is true but regardless, I think course selection is probably a much larger factor. without the same course selection you're less likely to find something you are truly interested and passionate about learning and this will show in your grades. And I just wanted to clarify that I don't think that going to a mid-sized university poses any significant barriers. What I do mean to say is that going to those with better programs will likely give you greater opportunities and essentially resources for success. Barriers don't need to come into the equation. 

[Kirby17]

Western med sci has reasonable marking and a decent amount of them have a portion of the course that gives free (or easy) marks.

Don't choose a school because of how hard or easy a program may seem.

[Kirby17]

The cutoff is 60%. And very, very hard to get 60%. They get 100s and 100s of students in and they use them just to take their money (why would otherwise the average be 60% and not 70% like at other universities?!). Only 10% less than an average bright student (who gets 60% btw), and you are out. Not only you are out, but you also lose your confidence, maybe forever. Just imagine, you were 90% student, getting 90% or more in all of your science and math courses, then you get to western medsci - and you can't reach 60%. 60% is the average at western medsci! And the best of the best students compete and western gladly accept them all, take their money, and then destroys them. I am saying this because it would only be fair to have median/average at 70% and not 60%. To set it at 60% makes no sense at all. This is how they do it: in Calculus 1000, for example, they give you the first quiz and you get 100%. Then they say it is going to be more difficult next week quiz (you spend more time being tested than studying, at Western medsci!), and you get 50%. All of sudden, all your confidence is lost and you struggle to be over 50% (and you were 90%+ student in highschool!). Read my lips: STAY AWAY FROM WESTERN MEDSCI. CHOSE ANY OTHER SCHOOL/PROGRAM. Chose only programs where at least 70% is median/average, on the continual basis. Where to get such data, I do not know.

Okay this Navr guy is spreading complete bullshit.

First year med sci courses are not hard to do well in. The class average for bio 1001 was 77% for 2015-16 (Haffie sent out an email saying so). The average for physics is around 78, and chem is low 70s.

He is clearly exaggerating and probably failed to do well in these completely reasonable courses and is blaming the school.

[puma88]

Don't see what's wrong with having class averages of 60%. It does not mean the course is hard or it is not possible to do well as an individual. Can speak for Western MedSci, but I did a general life sci degree at UofT for undergrad and just looking through my transcript, almost all courses had a class average of C- to C+ over the 4 years.

 

From my experience, I think it's normal to have C- averages in classes and should not deter you from taking a particular course, depends on you as an individual to do well.

[_ _]

Don't see what's wrong with having class averages of 60%. It does not mean the course is hard or it is not possible to do well as an individual. Can speak for Western MedSci, but I did a general life sci degree at UofT for undergrad and just looking through my transcript, almost all courses had a class average of C- to C+ over the 4 years.

 

From my experience, I think it's normal to have C- averages in classes and should not deter you from taking a particular course, depends on you as an individual to do well.

All of my first year course had low ~60-70 averages. Exam averages hovered around 50-60%

 

I distinctly remember my furst year chem prof saying that the first midterm average was 55%, which was 'expected in a class of this size'

[thethirdlaw]

For what it's worth, I checked the class averages from my transcript, first year biology = ~75 avg, first year chem = ~73 avg, first year calc = 68 avg, first year physics = ~77 avg.

 

That's not just acceptable, it's even moderately high for some courses.

[navr]

Western med sci has reasonable marking and a decent amount of them have a portion of the course that gives free (or easy) marks.

Don't choose a school because of how hard or easy a program may seem.

Around 300 medsci 1st year students wholeheartedly disagree with you. As much as they want to stay at the program, they can't: it's too damn hard. In other words, what you are saying is that you are among those 300 lucky souls. All kudos to you too.

[navr]

Okay this Navr guy is spreading complete bullshit.

First year med sci courses are not hard to do well in. The class average for bio 1001 was 77% for 2015-16 (Haffie sent out an email saying so). The average for physics is around 78, and chem is low 70s.

He is clearly exaggerating and probably failed to do well in these completely reasonable courses and is blaming the school.

Folks, do not listen to this moron, he is a troll. I repeat: the western medsci program is one of the 3 HARDEST programs in Ontario, period. The hardest one by far is UofT engineering science, no question. Western medsci will destroy you, literally. OUT OF 600 OR 700 STUDENTS, ONLY 300 MAKE IT TO THE 3RD YEAR MEDSCI. You be the judge.

 

And no, those students who make it (like this troll) are not more capable, they simply have a good regurgitation-type memory. They are like robots. They remember what they ate 17 days ago, it just stick in their mind (that is why they all sing the same song: it's easy, it's easy). Their creativity is zero. Because nature either gives you memory or creativity. It is rare that both coexist in the same individual.  

 

To summarize: if you do not poses chess player-like memory, DO NOT GO TO WESTERN MEDSCI.

[navr]

For what it's worth, I checked the class averages from my transcript, first year biology = ~75 avg, first year chem = ~73 avg, first year calc = 68 avg, first year physics = ~77 avg.

 

That's not just acceptable, it's even moderately high for some courses.

when did you attend 1st year medsci?

[navr]

This is untrue. Average final grades usually hover slightly above 70%, which is standard for biomed/life science programs.

 

I do know many people who came into university with 90% high school averages that had their grades suffer tremendously in first year—most of the time it happened because they either didn't spend time studying (i.e. partied/procrastinated too much) or they came from high schools with relatively low academic standards.

 

IMO it's a great program in terms of prep for med school and it's in the middle of the pack when it comes to difficulty amongst the biomed/life science programs.

I came from the top public school in Ontario, 2 Nobel prize winners completed the very same school.  The school score very high on Fraser and other rang lists, for many years.

[_ _]

Folks, do not listen to this moron, he is a troll. I repeat: the western medsci program is one of the 3 HARDEST programs in Ontario, period. The hardest one by far is UofT engineering science, no question. Western medsci will destroy you, literally. OUT OF 600 OR 700 STUDENTS, ONLY 300 MAKE IT TO THE 3RD YEAR MEDSCI. You be the judge.

 

And no, those students who make it (like this troll) are not more capable, they simply have a good regurgitation-type memory. They are like robots. They remember what they ate 17 days ago, it just stick in their mind (that is why they all sing the same song: it's easy, it's easy). Their creativity is zero. Because nature either gives you memory or creativity. It is rare that both coexist in the same individual.  

 

To summarize: if you do not poses chess player-like memory, DO NOT GO TO WESTERN MEDSCI.

Wow. Just wow. 

 

Do you realize how common it is to have cutoffs for second year programs that only a small percentage of people make? 300/600 is nothing. 

 

Also, that doesn't make it harder. Considering the cutoff is 80%, if even half of first years got an average >80% that would make it a shockingly easy program compared to....well pretty much everything else. You act like the fact that not everyone gets all 80's makes it hard.

 

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, because you are clearly set in your ways, but for any grade 12's reading this thread-Western medsci is not a killer program. In fact its pretty great, not at all a GPA killer, and an excellent 'premed' degree, if such a thing exists.

[Kirby17]

Around 300 medsci 1st year students wholeheartedly disagree with you. As much as they want to stay at the program, they can't: it's too damn hard. In other words, what you are saying is that you are among those 300 lucky souls. All kudos to you too.

Just because only ~300 of the students in first year make it into med sci 3rd year doesn't mean the program is hard. It is on par (or even easier) than other science programs out there. There are limited spots in 3rd/4th year modules, and they know not all students will have the required average to proceed into 3rd year med sci. They accept 600+ students into first year because there's no way to tell who will do well enough to make it. I've met people with 95 high school averages that are getting 60s now and people with 85s in high school getting 90s now. They are not trying to kick you out of med sci.. The courses are completely reasonable and if you achieve the required grades, you're in.

Besides, many schools require certain grades to enter certain modules. Does that make them hard as well?

 

Most class averages are in the low 70s and for bio/chem, the averages are 75%+ this year. You are insane if you think western is harder than any other school.

[Neurophilic]

Folks, do not listen to this moron, he is a troll. I repeat: the western medsci program is one of the 3 HARDEST programs in Ontario, period. The hardest one by far is UofT engineering science, no question. Western medsci will destroy you, literally. OUT OF 600 OR 700 STUDENTS, ONLY 300 MAKE IT TO THE 3RD YEAR MEDSCI. You be the judge.

 

And no, those students who make it (like this troll) are not more capable, they simply have a good regurgitation-type memory. They are like robots. They remember what they ate 17 days ago, it just stick in their mind (that is why they all sing the same song: it's easy, it's easy). Their creativity is zero. Because nature either gives you memory or creativity. It is rare that both coexist in the same individual.  

 

To summarize: if you do not poses chess player-like memory, DO NOT GO TO WESTERN MEDSCI.

Haha this whole post is bull. And honestly if you can't make a 50% cut in undergrad, what makes you think you'll have any chance of getting into med school? Memory and creativity rarely coexist in the same individual? LMAO. Love how everything is so extreme in this post. You must have had a really bad experience lol. Oh and by the way the first year MedSci courses are the exact same as a general biology degree at Western so apparently navr is saying that science as a whole at Western will kill you. 

[navr]

Wow. Just wow. 

 

Do you realize how common it is to have cutoffs for second year programs that only a small percentage of people make? 300/600 is nothing. 

 

Also, that doesn't make it harder. Considering the cutoff is 80%, if even half of first years got an average >80% that would make it a shockingly easy program compared to....well pretty much everything else. You act like the fact that not everyone gets all 80's makes it hard.

 

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, because you are clearly set in your ways, but for any grade 12's reading this thread-Western medsci is not a killer program. In fact its pretty great, not at all a GPA killer, and an excellent 'premed' degree, if such a thing exists.

600 students applied for western medsci.

All had min. 89% or 90%.

300 did not succeed. 50% failure rate. Wow. You be the judge. Would you like to work in a nuclear power plant, with the salary of, let's say 10 mil. dollars? But there is a catch: the failure rate is, well, only 50%.

Ridiculous. If you are the representative of the selected medsci 300 that march toward 3rd year medsci, all I can say is: Wow. Heck, what happened with the basic logic? Basic reasoning. OK, there is no basic logic, western medsci killed any traces of it. But, what about - common sense??

 

Again, this is the 3rd most in demand program in Ontario. There is engineering science uoft, there is a one or two (again engineering) programs at waterloo, and there is western medsci. How do I now? I paid almost $1000 for all sorts of programs in Ontario, just to see where people gravitate the most. To see what is in the highest demand, but feasible at the same time (e.g. 90% vs 95% or even 97% for engineering science uoft).

 

90%. Not like 97%, but certainly much better than many 70% programs.

 

Now, as I mentioned, there are cheaters everywhere, including engineering science uoft. People who slipped through the net. But these are individual cases, you can count them on one hand. STATISTICALLY speaking, 300 90%+ students failed western medsci. Not 3, nor 30, nor 100. But 300. Hundreds and hundreds of very capable students did not make it.

 

My advice to everybody reading this: avoid western medsci. It is TOO RISKY, no matter how capable you are. If you don't have a vague idea what risk management is, google for it. 

 

This is the path that I advice everybody takes. I didn't know this path when I was a medsci applicant, but now I know, and I am sharing with everybody):

 

1. apply to york kine or similar

2. if you obtain high GPA there, you are in the MD pool automatically. All you need is 4 or 5 science courses, which compared to medsci science courses, are bird courses.

3. If you still do not get high GPA there, do not despair: you can still apply to med schools in Ireland (med degree from Ireland is automatically recognized in Canada).

[thethirdlaw]

600 students applied for western medsci.

All had min. 89% or 90%.

300 did not succeed. 50% failure rate. Wow. You be the judge. Would you like to work in a nuclear power plant, with the salary of, let's say 10 mil. dollars? But there is a catch: the failure rate is, well, only 50%.

Ridiculous. If you are the representative of the selected medsci 300 that march toward 3rd year medsci, all I can say is: Wow. Heck, what happened with the basic logic? Basic reasoning. OK, there is no basic logic, western medsci killed any traces of it. But, what about - common sense??

 

Again, this is the 3rd most in demand program in Ontario. There is engineering science uoft, there is a one or two (again engineering) programs at waterloo, and there is western medsci. How do I now? I paid almost $1000 for all sorts of programs in Ontario, just to see where people gravitate the most. To see what is in the highest demand, but feasible at the same time (e.g. 90% vs 95% or even 97% for engineering science uoft).

 

90%. Not like 97%, but certainly much better than many 70% programs.

 

Now, as I mentioned, there are cheaters everywhere, including engineering science uoft. People who slipped through the net. But these are individual cases, you can count them on one hand. STATISTICALLY speaking, 300 90%+ students failed western medsci. Not 3, nor 30, nor 100. But 300. Hundreds and hundreds of very capable students did not make it.

 

My advice to everybody reading this: avoid western medsci. It is TOO RISKY, no matter how capable you are. If you don't have a vague idea what risk management is, google for it. 

 

This is the path that I advice everybody takes. I didn't know this path when I was a medsci applicant, but now I know, and I am sharing with everybody):

 

1. apply to york kine or similar

2. if you obtain high GPA there, you are in the MD pool automatically. All you need is 4 or 5 science courses, which compared to medsci science courses, are bird courses.

3. If you still do not get high GPA there, do not despair: you can still apply to med schools in Ireland (med degree from Ireland is automatically recognized in Canada).

 

To anyone out there reading this and weighing undergrad program options, ignore this person. They clearly couldn't cut it in a fair and incredibly rewarding program that has sent most of my friends to medical school. This bitterness is fueling the undeserved venom directed at BMSc.

 

To highlight this person's naivete is the claim that Ireland is the best option and that the degree is "recognized" in Canada. A medical degree is useless in Canada without training in a residency program. Ireland grads are IMGs and must compete for a finite number of residencies. A smaller percentage of IMGs make it back to Canada as practicing physicians than the proportion of students reaching 3rd year medical sciences at Western. This is a testament to the poster's inability to understand the finer elements of medical school admissions and Canada.

[navr]

To anyone out there reading this and weighing undergrad program options, ignore this person. They clearly couldn't cut it in a fair and incredibly rewarding program that has sent most of my friends to medical school. This bitterness is fueling the undeserved venom directed at BMSc.

 

To highlight this person's naivete is the claim that Ireland is the best option and that the degree is "recognized" in Canada. A medical degree is useless in Canada without training in a residency program. Ireland grads are IMGs and must compete for a finite number of residencies. A smaller percentage of IMGs make it back to Canada as practicing physicians than the proportion of students reaching 3rd year medical sciences at Western. This is a testament to the poster's inability to understand the finer elements of medical school admissions and Canada.

This bitterness stems from you stupidity, which is rigid, and most likely, induced by the very program we are talking about.

[navr]

This bitterness stems from you stupidity, which is rigid, and most likely, induced by the very program we are talking about.

"compete for a finite number of residencies"

 

EVERYBODY competes for residences, whether from Canada, Ireland, or from planet Pluto. You see, you have a SIGNIFICANT problem with logical reasoning. The issue we discuss here is, and OP posted, is whether to go western medsci route if you want to apply to med school later on. The answer is: NO. NO WAY. IT IS TOO RISKY. There are much EASIER AND LESS COSTLY routes.

[Neurophilic]

600 students applied for western medsci.

All had min. 89% or 90%.

300 did not succeed. 50% failure rate. Wow. You be the judge. Would you like to work in a nuclear power plant, with the salary of, let's say 10 mil. dollars? But there is a catch: the failure rate is, well, only 50%.

Ridiculous. If you are the representative of the selected medsci 300 that march toward 3rd year medsci, all I can say is: Wow. Heck, what happened with the basic logic? Basic reasoning. OK, there is no basic logic, western medsci killed any traces of it. But, what about - common sense??

 

 

You may think that you have good logic skills but clearly you do not and are unable to see the big picture. Go to any university and you will see that people fail. It is not the program which fails them, it is the people themselves. Mentioning peoples' averages prior to uni means absolutely nothing. Just as others have mentioned, there will be people who had low 80's in high school and end up getting high 90's and those with high 90's in high school who fail in uni. Additionally look at how many people don't succeed to get into medicine from their respective programs (much lower success rate) so according to you it would be stupid to even try to get into medicine. I think you need to stop posting on this forum because you're making yourself look silly. You didn't make it and you're a little jealous of those who did. You need to get over yourself and stop trying to drag people down with you. You talk like you're the all knowing. What are your credentials? Where did you complete your undergrad and I'd also like to hear what Med school accepted you. 

[_ _]

600 students applied for western medsci.

All had min. 89% or 90%.

300 did not succeed. 50% failure rate. Wow. You be the judge. Would you like to work in a nuclear power plant, with the salary of, let's say 10 mil. dollars? But there is a catch: the failure rate is, well, only 50%.

Ridiculous. If you are the representative of the selected medsci 300 that march toward 3rd year medsci, all I can say is: Wow. Heck, what happened with the basic logic? Basic reasoning. OK, there is no basic logic, western medsci killed any traces of it. But, what about - common sense??

 

Any program were 600 students have an average >90% is clearly NOT overly difficult. 

[Neurophilic]

"compete for a finite number of residencies"

 

EVERYBODY competes for residences, whether from Canada, Ireland, or from planet Pluto. You see, you have a SIGNIFICANT problem with logical reasoning. The issue we discuss here is, and OP posted, is whether to go western medsci route if you want to apply to med school later on. The answer is: NO. NO WAY. IT IS TOO RISKY. There are much EASIER AND LESS COSTLY routes.

When making certain claims you should be more specific. Yes everybody competes for residencies whether from Canada, Ireland, or pluto, but they do NOT compete for the same number of residencies. Getting a residency position in Canada when your MD comes from another country is virtually impossible. Did you forget to mention this or did you purposely omit it so that you could manipulate others into believing your claims?

[Neurophilic]

This bitterness stems from you stupidity, which is rigid, and most likely, induced by the very program we are talking about.

A little ironic that you are calling others rigid. Might I remind you of the post where you claimed that memory and creativity rarely coexist in the same person. I wonder if you are one of those rare cases.

[IMislove]

Well this thread turned into a shit show real quick lul.

[navr]

You may think that you have good logic skills but clearly you do not and are unable to see the big picture. Go to any university and you will see that people fail. It is not the program which fails them, it is the people themselves. Mentioning peoples' averages prior to uni means absolutely nothing. Just as others have mentioned, there will be people who had low 80's in high school and end up getting high 90's and those with high 90's in high school who fail in uni. Additionally look at how many people don't succeed to get into medicine from their respective programs (much lower success rate) so according to you it would be stupid to even try to get into medicine. I think you need to stop posting on this forum because you're making yourself look silly. You didn't make it and you're a little jealous of those who did. You need to get over yourself and stop trying to drag people down with you. You talk like you're the all knowing. What are your credentials? Where did you complete your undergrad and I'd also like to here what Med school accepted you. 

"You may think that you have good logic skills but clearly you do not and are unable to see the big picture. Go to any university and you will see that people fail".

 

People fail? Really? I didn't know that. And did you know that Hungary doesn't have sea?

[navr]

When making certain claims you should be more specific. Yes everybody competes for residencies whether from Canada, Ireland, or pluto, but they do NOT compete for the same number of residencies. Getting a residency position in Canada when your MD comes from another country is virtually impossible. Did you forget to mention this or did you purposely omit it so that you could manipulate others into believing your claims?

U.S. (and most other countries) requires all medical graduates, whether American or international, to write standard licensing exams to enable an evaluation of candidates on merit, not place of education. There are British Columbians, with international degrees, who have scored higher than 98 per cent of everyone who took American licensing exams. These outstanding British Columbians, welcomed in the U.S., cannot come home to compete for the hundreds of resident positions in B.C. available to UBC graduates.

 

Canada does not have the best medical schools in the world. The Times International Higher Education Rankings for 2013-14 ranks Oxford in England first. Three of the top five medical schools are in the U.K., where many CSAs choose to study. The University of Toronto is the highest ranked Canadian medical school at 15th. The Times ranks UBC 30th. (The Academic Ranking of World Universities in Clinical Medicine does not rank UBC in the top 100.) Ten of the 17 Canadian medical schools did not rank in the Times top 100 medical schools in the world. Currently one Canadian medical school, the University of Saskatchewan, is under threat of losing its accreditation.

I assure you, by the time I get my Ireland degree, the things will change in Canada.

But let's focus on the western vs york kine route. If one cannot boost his gpa at yor kine, then he should think to maybe abandon md path. Only if he is very determined, he should go to Ireland.

 

The truth of the matter is that york kine path is MUCH EASIER AND LESS RISKY than western medsci. Failure rate at western medsci is 50%. Failure rate at york kine is myabe not even 5%. Now that is what I call the comparative advantage of york kine