Western Medical Science Vs York Biomedical Science

[navr]

Any program were 600 students have an average >90% is clearly NOT overly difficult. 

90%+ Gr 12 applicants.

 

300 of them do not make it at western medsci each year.

[Neurophilic]

 

U.S. (and most other countries) requires all medical graduates, whether American or international, to write standard licensing exams to enable an evaluation of candidates on merit, not place of education. There are British Columbians, with international degrees, who have scored higher than 98 per cent of everyone who took American licensing exams. These outstanding British Columbians, welcomed in the U.S., cannot come home to compete for the hundreds of resident positions in B.C. available to UBC graduates.

 

Canada does not have the best medical schools in the world. The Times International Higher Education Rankings for 2013-14 ranks Oxford in England first. Three of the top five medical schools are in the U.K., where many CSAs choose to study. The University of Toronto is the highest ranked Canadian medical school at 15th. The Times ranks UBC 30th. (The Academic Ranking of World Universities in Clinical Medicine does not rank UBC in the top 100.) Ten of the 17 Canadian medical schools did not rank in the Times top 100 medical schools in the world. Currently one Canadian medical school, the University of Saskatchewan, is under threat of losing its accreditation.

I assure you, by the time I get my Ireland degree, the things will change in Canada.

But let's focus on the western vs york kine route. If one cannot boost his gpa at yor kine, then he should think to maybe abandon md path. Only if he is very determined, he should go to Ireland.

 

The truth of the matter is that york kine path is MUCH EASIER AND LESS RISKY than western medsci. Failure rate at western medsci is 50%. Failure rate at york kine is myabe not even 5%. Now that is what I call the comparative advantage of york kine

 

LMAO @ this whole post. YOU assure me things will change by the time you get your Irish degree? Okay that's comforting lol.

 

Who cares about failure rates between two undergrad programs? If you're not even competitive enough to stay in an undergraduate program, I assure you that you will not be competitive enough for medical admissions let alone the rigors of medical studies. Instead why don't you give meaningful statistics (from reliable sources as opposed to your own false anecdotes) such as acceptance rates of those with undergrad degrees from York kin and Western BMSc.  

[Neurophilic]

90%+ Gr 12 applicants.

 

300 of them do not make it at western medsci each year.

So what? How about all of the 90+ % Gr 12 applicants that don't make it in other programs. Additionally high school is not really a good indicator of potential when comparing between students from different schools. There's no standardization between schools. A 90% average in one school could be equivalent to a 75% average at another. 

[navr]

LMAO @ this whole post. YOU assure me things will change by the time you get your Irish degree? Okay that's comforting lol.

 

Who cares about failure rates between two undergrad programs? If you're not even competitive enough to stay in an undergraduate program, I assure you that you will not be competitive enough for medical admissions let alone the rigors of medical studies. Instead why don't you give meaningful statistics (from reliable sources as opposed to your own false anecdotes) such as acceptance rates of those with undergrad degrees from York kin and Western BMSc.  

Ok, so things won't change. You're Nostradamus, so what. Ireland is option 3. Even with that option, you can always go to usa.

 

Focus on york kine.

 

The point is that 300 people who would otherwise fail western medsci in 2016/17 can apply to york kine, boost gpa, and compete for med school, as simple as that. With york kine, in general, job prospects are much better than western biology (where they will put you after you fail medsci). Plus, you have a chance at med school as above posts showed (20 york students enter med school each year on average). It does not make any sense whatsoever, to select western medsci over york kine. 

[navr]

So what? How about all of the 90+ % Gr 12 applicants that don't make it in other programs. Additionally high school is not really a good indicator of potential when comparing between students from different schools. There's no standardization between schools. A 90% average in one school could be equivalent to a 75% average at another. 

If it is not a good indicator, why they are bombard you with those percentages? 91% uoft electrical engineering and you are out. 92% and you are in. And so on.

Standardization? If one could measure abilities of ALL uoft engineering science 1st year students and ALL waterloo nano engineering 1st yr students and ALL western medsci 1st yr students, and ALL york kine 1st yr students, here is what would rank list look like:

 

1. uoft eng sci, top ability

2. uofw nano eng

3. big emptiness

4. western medsci

5. big emptiness

6. york kine and similar

 

Why? Because statistics say so, that's why.

Now, let's investigate what percentage of 1st year students in the above categories fail to stay in their respective programs:

 

uoft engsci < 10%

uofw nanoeng <10%

york kine         < 10%

 

western medsci >= 50% WOW.

 

Wow. What a discrepancy. western medsci 5 (FIVE) times higher failure rate than other both stronger and weaker programs (focus is of course only on science and/or engineering as the most prestigious category of programs)

 

If what you said is true, then it would be true FOR EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM OUT THERE, statistically speaking.

[InstantRamen]

I absolutely love this soap opera <3.

[Neurophilic]

If it is not a good indicator, why they are bombard you with those percentages? 91% uoft electrical engineering and you are out. 92% and you are in. And so on.

Standardization? If one could measure abilities of ALL uoft engineering science 1st year students and ALL waterloo nano engineering 1st yr students and ALL western medsci 1st yr students, and ALL york kine 1st yr students, here is what would rank list look like:

 

1. uoft eng sci, top ability

2. uofw nano eng

3. big emptiness

4. western medsci

5. big emptiness

6. york kine and similar

 

Why? Because statistics say so, that's why.

Now, let's investigate what percentage of 1st year students in the above categories fail to stay in their respective programs:

 

uoft engsci < 10%

uofw nanoeng <10%

york kine         < 10%

 

western medsci >= 50% WOW.

 

Wow. What a discrepancy. western medsci 5 (FIVE) times higher failure rate than other both stronger and weaker programs (focus is of course only on science and/or engineering as the most prestigious category of programs)

 

If what you said is true, then it would be true FOR EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM OUT THERE, statistically speaking.

I love how you pull all of these rankings and percentages out of your ass. Initially, the failure rate was about 5% for York kin and now its less than 10%. Why didn't you write 5% again. You can't even keep your numbers straight. Additionally, you state that those are the rates of failure to remain in the program. Even if those rates are accurate that means that they also include those people who have more than sufficient grades that decided to switch to another program solely for interest. Given that, there's no way to discern those who were unable to do well and those who did well and decided to switch out of interest.

 

As a person who was actually able to get in and remain in the med sci program let me explain how it works. The cutoff from first year to second year and second year to third year when I was in the program was 78% and 79% respectively. If you cannot do better than a 78 or 79% average then you will not be competitive for med school regardless of whatever average you had in high school. Additionally, if you are a student who cannot perform at this level at Western, then you're likely not going to be performing at this level at York period. Doing well is much more a product of a student's abilities than the program itself. Going to a program which is not as competitive to get into will not lead to higher grades as a result of this. Additionally, being in a program that does not cut people out and offers security will not result in a greater GPA compared to one that does. Only those that are highly qualified can make it into Canadian medical schools and, I'm going to repeat this one more time so that maybe you'll get the message once and for all, those who cannot make it in a program that requires you to achieve a 78% average will not be part of that highly qualified pool regardless of what university they go to because they just don't have what it takes.

 

All the best with your studies in Ireland.       

[Neurophilic]

I absolutely love this soap opera <3.

Would you mind passing me the popcorn?

[InstantRamen]

Would you mind passing me the popcorn?

Days of Lives: Premed101

[ieatpremeds]

WESTERN MED SCI FOR LIFE <3 Get off this forum, visit the school, talk to people who are in and/or completed the program.

[thethirdlaw]

Not worth it.

[navr]

I love how you pull all of these rankings and percentages out of your ass. Initially, the failure rate was about 5% for York kin and now its less than 10%. Why didn't you write 5% again. You can't even keep your numbers straight. Additionally, you state that those are the rates of failure to remain in the program. Even if those rates are accurate that means that they also include those people who have more than sufficient grades that decided to switch to another program solely for interest. Given that, there's no way to discern those who were unable to do well and those who did well and decided to switch out of interest.

 

As a person who was actually able to get in and remain in the med sci program let me explain how it works. The cutoff from first year to second year and second year to third year when I was in the program was 78% and 79% respectively. If you cannot do better than a 78 or 79% average then you will not be competitive for med school regardless of whatever average you had in high school. Additionally, if you are a student who cannot perform at this level at Western, then you're likely not going to be performing at this level at York period. Doing well is much more a product of a student's abilities than the program itself. Going to a program which is not as competitive to get into will not lead to higher grades as a result of this. Additionally, being in a program that does not cut people out and offers security will not result in a greater GPA compared to one that does. Only those that are highly qualified can make it into Canadian medical schools and, I'm going to repeat this one more time so that maybe you'll get the message once and for all, those who cannot make it in a program that requires you to achieve a 78% average will not be part of that highly qualified pool regardless of what university they go to because they just don't have what it takes.

 

All the best with your studies in Ireland.       

"The cutoff from first year to second year and second year to third year when I was in the program was 78% and 79% respectively."

 

Let me tell you this: you are VERY lucky,  if you enrolled in the 1st yr medsci last year, you would be in the same boat as me. Why? Because to have the cutoff of 78 or 79, the tests and exams in your time must had been VERY VERY EASY. So easy that they had to INCREASE THE CUTOFF. And it seems they had been increasing it for quite some time in order to prevent stupids to somehow slip through the net . But they FAILED in preventing stupids to enter the program. If I were you, I would changed my name to Lucky.

So what happened? They realized that it is the very difficulty of tests and exams, that needs to be increased. SO YES, CUTOFF NOW IS 60%, But not because new generations of students are dumber than old generations, but because the tests/exams are now 30-40% more difficult than they used to be.

[navr]

I love how you pull all of these rankings and percentages out of your ass. Initially, the failure rate was about 5% for York kin and now its less than 10%. Why didn't you write 5% again. You can't even keep your numbers straight. Additionally, you state that those are the rates of failure to remain in the program. Even if those rates are accurate that means that they also include those people who have more than sufficient grades that decided to switch to another program solely for interest. Given that, there's no way to discern those who were unable to do well and those who did well and decided to switch out of interest.

 

As a person who was actually able to get in and remain in the med sci program let me explain how it works. The cutoff from first year to second year and second year to third year when I was in the program was 78% and 79% respectively. If you cannot do better than a 78 or 79% average then you will not be competitive for med school regardless of whatever average you had in high school. Additionally, if you are a student who cannot perform at this level at Western, then you're likely not going to be performing at this level at York period. Doing well is much more a product of a student's abilities than the program itself. Going to a program which is not as competitive to get into will not lead to higher grades as a result of this. Additionally, being in a program that does not cut people out and offers security will not result in a greater GPA compared to one that does. Only those that are highly qualified can make it into Canadian medical schools and, I'm going to repeat this one more time so that maybe you'll get the message once and for all, those who cannot make it in a program that requires you to achieve a 78% average will not be part of that highly qualified pool regardless of what university they go to because they just don't have what it takes.

 

All the best with your studies in Ireland.       

"If you cannot do better than a 78 or 79% average then you will not be competitive for med school regardless of whatever average you had in high school"

 

At least, with york kine I would be in the situation to compete and be in the pool (are you saying that medsci 78% equal to york kine 78% presently?). With western medsci - dead meat. One error and you are out of the program.  And as I mentioned already, nowadays, med schools pay equal attention to Humanities background and with Humanities you can really boost your gpa to stratosphere (most of those essays are done online, with the help of expert essay writers out there). Even if you have the best gpa in medsci you may still fail. It was not always that way, but nowadays it is.

[Kirby17]

"If you cannot do better than a 78 or 79% average then you will not be competitive for med school regardless of whatever average you had in high school"

 

At least, with york kine I would be in the situation to compete and be in the pool (are you saying that medsci 78% equal to york kine 78% presently?). With western medsci - dead meat. One error and you are out of the program. And as I mentioned already, nowadays, med schools pay equal attention to Humanities background and with Humanities you can really boost your gpa to stratosphere (most of those essays are done online, with the help of expert essay writers out there). Even if you have the best gpa in medsci you may still fail. It was not always that way, but nowadays it is.

First of all, doesn't lowering the cutoff from first year to second year to 60% make it easier for kids to stay in the program? Doing poorly in your first year no longer puts you at risk of being removed. The difficulty of the first year courses was not increased... All of them have a 15-30% mark booster in labs, quizzes, etc. All of the past exams for bio, chem, calc, etc. look similar to the ones from this year.

 

Do you go to Western? Because if you do, I don't understand how you're arguing that this school is unfair.

 

Also, even if someone doesn't get into the med sci program for 3rd year, that just means they'll be in general science programs instead. It is very possible to do well in both general science and med sci.

 

Sounds like you're a student that had a really high average at an easy high school, developed an ego, did poorly in your courses at western, and is now blaming the school/program for it.

[PremedToronto]

I'm not trying to say that the program is garbage but it is well known that certain schools do have much better science undergraduate programs (ex; Mac, Western, Ottawa). I've also been told by numerous doctors to not go to schools such as York, UofT, etc. if I am planning to go into medicine (yes this is anecdotal and is not the main reason). I've seen stats, and you'll have to take my word on this because it was a couple years back and I don't have access to the source (but it was a reputable one), which have indicated that most medical students come from 3 or so universities. Additionally, it also showed that medical students with undergrads from York were a minority group (quite small in fact). Yes, people who go to York do get into med school but at a much lower rate compared to other schools.

 

Edit: And if I may add, York's OMSAS conversion is not as favourable as a school such as Western 

 

The point is that you should not be telling someone where NOT to go, especially when it is completely "based" on anecdotes.  People get accepted from every school, and their final decision should be based on their own experience of the school, the program, proximity to home if that's a factor, etc.  It's not right for you to pose as an advisor in this situation.

 

Secondly, yes your logic is seriously flawed in your other comments as stated by a few users on this post.  Sometimes I can't tell if you're purposely trolling or actually confused.  Best of luck on your offers.

[xkittens]

Wow people are advising you to go to York or Guelph over Western for a science-based underground?! There is no question that Western is one of the top schools for a science undergrad. If you plan on going to med school do not go to York. With respect to competitiveness of UWO med sci, not really true (yes you do have to compete for limited spots in the next year but it's really easy to make it through) and it won't really affect your GPA as there is virtually no bell-curving. Regardless, your choice should be based on which programs interest you the most, not on what you think will result in a higher GPA. When you are passionate about something you are more likely to do well in it. Not sure if this has already been said (I was too lazy to read the whole thread) but that's my $0.02. 

I went to york, in the first month of med school we wrote a test that is basically the licensing exam to see how much medical knowledge we had before coming in to medical school- I scored in the 99th percentile. 

Feel free to go to york

[navr]

First of all, doesn't lowering the cutoff from first year to second year to 60% make it easier for kids to stay in the program? Doing poorly in your first year no longer puts you at risk of being removed. The difficulty of the first year courses was not increased... All of them have a 15-30% mark booster in labs, quizzes, etc. All of the past exams for bio, chem, calc, etc. look similar to the ones from this year.

 

Do you go to Western? Because if you do, I don't understand how you're arguing that this school is unfair.

 

Also, even if someone doesn't get into the med sci program for 3rd year, that just means they'll be in general science programs instead. It is very possible to do well in both general science and med sci.

 

Sounds like you're a student that had a really high average at an easy high school, developed an ego, did poorly in your courses at western, and is now blaming the school/program for it.

 

you don't understand, do you?

 

I'll try to simplify it.

 

First, one thing that you have to understand is that population is population. No matter what generation, their abilities are about the same on average (if no major changes in the school system).

 

Secondly, as mentioned here several times, the cutoffs have been RADICALLY changes in the last X years.

 

It used to be 78%.

 

And now it is 60% 2015/2016. In the year 2013/2014 the cutoff was 70%

 

ALMOST 30% DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 2015/16 AND 5 YEARS AGO.

 

Why?

 

Possible answer 1: NEW GENERATION OF STUDENTS 2015/16, WHO ATTENDED THE SAME SCHOOL SYSTEM AS OLD GENERATIONS, ARE ~30% DUMBER THAN OLD GENERATIONS.

 

Possible answer 2: THE MEDSCI INCREASED THE CAPACITY ~30%, SO IN ORDER TO FILL THIS ADDITIONAL CAPACITY, THEY LOWERED THEIR REQUIREMENTS ~30%.

 

Possible answer 3: INCREASE OF THE APPLICANTS, YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR, FORCED WESTERN TO PROPORTIONALLY INCREASE THE DIFFICULTY OF TESTS, QUIZZES AND EXAMS.

 

These are all possibilities, 3 in total.

 

I am advocating  3), and you are advocating either 1) or 2).

 

I IMMEDIATELY DISMISS OPTION 1) ON THE BASIS OF SCIENCE OF STATISTICS. I am not going to elaborate. There are beautiful courses in statistics at western. Enrol in one or two such courses and learn foundations of statistics.

 

 

We are left with options 2) and 3).

 

Since you disagree with me, you are opposed to option 3). Which means you are advocating option 2), i.e. what you are saying is this:

 

THE MEDSCI INCREASED THE CAPACITY ~30%, SO IN ORDER TO FILL THIS ADDITIONAL CAPACITY, THEY LOWERED THEIR REQUIREMENTS ~30%.

 

Prove it to me.

 

As far as I know, the capacity in the last ~5 years was always ~300 students to move to medsci in their 3rd year. If you think differently, say so.

 

30% increase in the capacity would be a HUGE endeavour. I don't see that could had happened, no way. I absolutely rule out this option.

 

And we are left WITH THE ONLY REMAINING OPTION, BASED ON THE LAW OF THE EXCLUDED THIRD. Either 1) or 2) are true, or 3) is true. If neither 1) nor 2) are true, 3) MUST be true.

 

And here is the option 3) again:

 

INCREASE OF THE APPLICANTS, YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR, FORCED WESTERN TO PROPORTIONALLY INCREASE THE DIFFICULTY OF TESTS, QUIZZES AND EXAMS.

 

Why like that, one may ask.

 

Why not simply INCREASE THE CUTOFF TO 88% OR 90% OR EVEN 98%?????

 

Can you really not see why??

 

I'll tell you why.

 

First of all, they tried to follow that route in the past.

 

I mentioned that the cutoff in the 2013/14 was ~70%.

 

I.e. somewhere in the middle between 60% (2015/16) and 78% (forum member did not mention when was his 1st year at western medsci, but I assume it was 5-6 yrs ago).

 

But western failed with that approach.

 

WHY?

 

Imagine that you are good student (but not quite good as far as top programs in Ontario are concerned).

 

The year is maybe 2009/2010.

 

300 students manage to achieve 78%.

 

Some achieve 77%. Bad luck. They still have a big chance to get into the pool, and more importantly, to get from the pool into the 3rd year medsci. Why? Because they are on that level already.

 

They are RELAXED. From the 77% all the way down to 51% they are relaxed. Those who are even 30% dumber than those 78% achievers, ARE STILL IN THE SCIENCE.

 

Imagine Bell curve centred around 78%.

 

Now imagine the same curve centred at 60%.

 

The conclusion?

 

IF YOU ARE ONLY 10% DUMBER THAN THE ELITE (THOSE 300 WHO WILL UBIQUITOUSLY MOVE TO THE 3RD YEAR MEDSCI - STATISTICS IS STRANGE: IT IS ALWAYS ACCURATE.), YOU ARE OUT OF LUCK.

 

NOT ONLY YOU WILL NEVER REACH 3RD YEAR MEDSCI.

 

BUT YOU WILL NEVER REACH EVEN SCIENCE (NOT TO MENTION THAT WITH THAT SCIENCE READ BIOLOGY, YOU CAN ONLY WIPE YOUR YOU-KNOW-WHAT.).

 

WHY?

 

BECAUSE THERE ARE NO JOBS.

 

NO JOBS.

 

EVEN WITH MEDSCI YOU ARE NOBODY, IF YOU ARE AVERAGE AMONG YOUR PEERS. NOT TO MENTION BIOLOGY. WITH BIOLOGY, YOU ARE AN ABSOLUTE NOBODY.

 

 

So, only 10% separates you from <50% abysm: WITH 60% YOU ARE AT THE TOP OF HIMALAYAS AND WITH 50% YOU ARE PRACTICALLY NOBODY.

 

 

WHY DID THEY NOT RETAIN 78% CUTOFF?? OR AT LEAST 2013/14 70% CUTOFF??

 

As I mentioned 100 times, EVERY YEAR MORE AND MORE DESPERATE APPLICANTS APPLY FOR MEDSCI.

 

FROM 400 APPLICANTS WE ARE NOW AT 600/700. VERY SOON IT WILL BE 1000 CANDIDATES!

 

EVEN SCIENCE CANNOT ACCEPT THIS AVALANCHE OF CANDIDATES.

 

THE PURPOSE OF 60% CUTOFF IS NOT ONLY TO PROTECT MEDSCI, BUT SCIENCE IN GENERAL.

 

One my then ask, why don't they cutoff at the very source, when the candidates apply?

 

Good question!

 

Here is why: THEY NEED YOUR MONEY. THEY NEED IT FOR THEIR RESEARCH, FOR SALARIES (FROM 2009 TILL NOW THERE WAS A HUGE INCREASE IN SALARIES, NOT ONLY AT WESTERN BUT AT UNIVERSITIES IN GENERAL).

 

THEY NEED MONEY FROM STUPID APPLICANTS.

 

AND THEY NEED TO CUT THEM OFF FROM SCIENCE, MEASURED IN 100s AND 100s.

 

 

If they retained 78% cutoff, or even 70% (which is the usual cutoff on many universities these days), MANY DUMB STUDENTS WOULD OVERFLOW THE SCIENCE DEPARTMENT AND THEY SIMPLY COULD NOT ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN. But they needed all that money, so they took money, and subsequently, they cutoff them not only from medsci, but from science as well.

 

 

I somehow feel you'll not understand this either: did I or did I not mention that I come from a high school with 2 (TWO) Nobel prize winners? A top school in Canada, consistently among the first 10 in Canada.

[navr]

I went to york, in the first month of med school we wrote a test that is basically the licensing exam to see how much medical knowledge we had before coming in to medical school- I scored in the 99th percentile. 

Feel free to go to york

You know why?

 

Because you knew you have to prepare for med school and York allowed you to prepare - for med school?

 

And what does western medsci prepare you for? You are studying some biological physics and theoretical calculuses at the level of engineering?! Why do I need that level of depth if I only want to get into a med school?? There is so much information that one has to study and only york will give you the optimal conditions TO PREPARE. The only reason york gives 20 students for med schools and western 150 is because PEOPLE ARE NOT INFORMED.

 

PEOPLE ARE NOT INFORMED THAT THEY SHOULD GO TO YORK AND NOT WESTERN, IF THEY WANT TO PREPARE FOR MED SCHOOL. AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

 

PEOPLE ARE NOT INFORMED.

 

MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO WANT MED SCHOOL, ME INCLUDED, MADE A MISTAKE AND APPLIED TO WESTERN MEDSCI, WITH VERY SLIM CHANCES FOR ENTERING NOT ONLY MEDSCI PROGRAM, BUT SCIENCE IN GENERAL. WHY? BECAUSE CLOSE TO 1000 PEOPLE APPLIED AND NEITHER WESTERN MEDSCI NOT WESTERN SCIENCE CAN ACCOMMODATE THIS HUGE NUMBER OF STUDENTS.

 

THEY SIMPLY CUT THEM OFF BY SETTING THE MEAN AT 60%.

 

AND REST ASSURED, AS SOON AS NUMBER OF APPLICANTS GO DOWN TO 300/400, YOU'LL SEE AN IMMEDIATE INCREASE IN THE CUTOFF, FROM 60% TO 70%, AND IF NEED BE, HIGHER THAN THAT.

[1D7]

As far as I know, the capacity in the last ~5 years was always ~300 students to move to medsci in their 3rd year. If you think differently, say so.

30% increase in the capacity would be a HUGE endeavour. I don't see that could had happened, no way. I absolutely rule out this option.

There are 500 spaces in 3rd year BMSc; 1st year medical science has 750 students (information directly from BMSc pages listed below). They increased the upper year program sizes to accommodate for the expanded 1st year program a long time ago.

https://www.schulich.uwo.ca/bmsc/current_students/admission_progression/to_year_3_bmsc.html

https://www.schulich.uwo.ca/bmsc/future_students/applying/year_1.html

 

Roughly 500 students of the 750 from medical science 1 make it into BMSc in year 3. Doesn't sound great, but in the past—before Western expanded its program sizes—upper year BMSc only had 300 spots whilst there were 600 1st year medical science students. The ratio has actually improved dramatically (i.e. your chances have improved from 50% to 66%).

 

Of course, 33% attrition rate is no small number and you shouldn't feel bad if you didn't meet the requirements. Despite that, BMSc at Western in terms of proportions and absolute numbers is one of the best programs when it comes to sending students off to medical school.

 

Secondly, as mentioned here several times, the cutoffs have been RADICALLY changes in the last X years.

It used to be 78%.

And now it is 60% 2015/2016. In the year 2013/2014 the cutoff was 70%

FYI the requirements have not changed much from the past. 78% was the cumulative average cutoff before but you still needed at least 60% in every single science course without fails in any course. Current requirements are basically the same without the 78% cumulative average.

http://westerncalendar.uwo.ca/2016/pg1675.html

 

The only reason york gives 20 students for med schools and western 150 is because PEOPLE ARE NOT INFORMED.

PEOPLE ARE NOT INFORMED THAT THEY SHOULD GO TO YORK AND NOT WESTERN, IF THEY WANT TO PREPARE FOR MED SCHOOL. AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

Aside from the fact that you have no proof that York students don't want to go to medical school, it's generally well known to most students that it's easier to achieve a high GPA at smaller universities and certain programs (e.g. York Kine). If you are comparing medical science to those schools/programs, then yes it is more difficult, but if you compare it to life science at Queens or UofT, it's roughly the same level of difficulty.

[Kirby17]

you don't understand, do you?

 

I'll try to simplify it.

 

First, one thing that you have to understand is that population is population. No matter what generation, their abilities are about the same on average (if no major changes in the school system).

 

Secondly, as mentioned here several times, the cutoffs have been RADICALLY changes in the last X years.

 

It used to be 78%.

 

And now it is 60% 2015/2016. In the year 2013/2014 the cutoff was 70%

 

ALMOST 30% DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 2015/16 AND 5 YEARS AGO.

 

Why?

 

Possible answer 1: NEW GENERATION OF STUDENTS 2015/16, WHO ATTENDED THE SAME SCHOOL SYSTEM AS OLD GENERATIONS, ARE ~30% DUMBER THAN OLD GENERATIONS.

 

Possible answer 2: THE MEDSCI INCREASED THE CAPACITY ~30%, SO IN ORDER TO FILL THIS ADDITIONAL CAPACITY, THEY LOWERED THEIR REQUIREMENTS ~30%.

 

Possible answer 3: INCREASE OF THE APPLICANTS, YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR, FORCED WESTERN TO PROPORTIONALLY INCREASE THE DIFFICULTY OF TESTS, QUIZZES AND EXAMS.

 

These are all possibilities, 3 in total.

 

I am advocating  3), and you are advocating either 1) or 2).

 

I IMMEDIATELY DISMISS OPTION 1) ON THE BASIS OF SCIENCE OF STATISTICS. I am not going to elaborate. There are beautiful courses in statistics at western. Enrol in one or two such courses and learn foundations of statistics.

 

 

We are left with options 2) and 3).

 

Since you disagree with me, you are opposed to option 3). Which means you are advocating option 2), i.e. what you are saying is this:

 

THE MEDSCI INCREASED THE CAPACITY ~30%, SO IN ORDER TO FILL THIS ADDITIONAL CAPACITY, THEY LOWERED THEIR REQUIREMENTS ~30%.

 

Prove it to me.

 

As far as I know, the capacity in the last ~5 years was always ~300 students to move to medsci in their 3rd year. If you think differently, say so.

 

30% increase in the capacity would be a HUGE endeavour. I don't see that could had happened, no way. I absolutely rule out this option.

 

And we are left WITH THE ONLY REMAINING OPTION, BASED ON THE LAW OF THE EXCLUDED THIRD. Either 1) or 2) are true, or 3) is true. If neither 1) nor 2) are true, 3) MUST be true.

 

And here is the option 3) again:

 

INCREASE OF THE APPLICANTS, YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR, FORCED WESTERN TO PROPORTIONALLY INCREASE THE DIFFICULTY OF TESTS, QUIZZES AND EXAMS.

 

Why like that, one may ask.

 

Why not simply INCREASE THE CUTOFF TO 88% OR 90% OR EVEN 98%?????

 

Can you really not see why??

 

I'll tell you why.

 

First of all, they tried to follow that route in the past.

 

I mentioned that the cutoff in the 2013/14 was ~70%.

 

I.e. somewhere in the middle between 60% (2015/16) and 78% (forum member did not mention when was his 1st year at western medsci, but I assume it was 5-6 yrs ago).

 

But western failed with that approach.

 

WHY?

 

Imagine that you are good student (but not quite good as far as top programs in Ontario are concerned).

 

The year is maybe 2009/2010.

 

300 students manage to achieve 78%.

 

Some achieve 77%. Bad luck. They still have a big chance to get into the pool, and more importantly, to get from the pool into the 3rd year medsci. Why? Because they are on that level already.

 

They are RELAXED. From the 77% all the way down to 51% they are relaxed. Those who are even 30% dumber than those 78% achievers, ARE STILL IN THE SCIENCE.

 

Imagine Bell curve centred around 78%.

 

Now imagine the same curve centred at 60%.

 

The conclusion?

 

IF YOU ARE ONLY 10% DUMBER THAN THE ELITE (THOSE 300 WHO WILL UBIQUITOUSLY MOVE TO THE 3RD YEAR MEDSCI - STATISTICS IS STRANGE: IT IS ALWAYS ACCURATE.), YOU ARE OUT OF LUCK.

 

NOT ONLY YOU WILL NEVER REACH 3RD YEAR MEDSCI.

 

BUT YOU WILL NEVER REACH EVEN SCIENCE (NOT TO MENTION THAT WITH THAT SCIENCE READ BIOLOGY, YOU CAN ONLY WIPE YOUR YOU-KNOW-WHAT.).

 

WHY?

 

BECAUSE THERE ARE NO JOBS.

 

NO JOBS.

 

EVEN WITH MEDSCI YOU ARE NOBODY, IF YOU ARE AVERAGE AMONG YOUR PEERS. NOT TO MENTION BIOLOGY. WITH BIOLOGY, YOU ARE AN ABSOLUTE NOBODY.

 

 

So, only 10% separates you from <50% abysm: WITH 60% YOU ARE AT THE TOP OF HIMALAYAS AND WITH 50% YOU ARE PRACTICALLY NOBODY.

 

 

WHY DID THEY NOT RETAIN 78% CUTOFF?? OR AT LEAST 2013/14 70% CUTOFF??

 

As I mentioned 100 times, EVERY YEAR MORE AND MORE DESPERATE APPLICANTS APPLY FOR MEDSCI.

 

FROM 400 APPLICANTS WE ARE NOW AT 600/700. VERY SOON IT WILL BE 1000 CANDIDATES!

 

EVEN SCIENCE CANNOT ACCEPT THIS AVALANCHE OF CANDIDATES.

 

THE PURPOSE OF 60% CUTOFF IS NOT ONLY TO PROTECT MEDSCI, BUT SCIENCE IN GENERAL.

 

One my then ask, why don't they cutoff at the very source, when the candidates apply?

 

Good question!

 

Here is why: THEY NEED YOUR MONEY. THEY NEED IT FOR THEIR RESEARCH, FOR SALARIES (FROM 2009 TILL NOW THERE WAS A HUGE INCREASE IN SALARIES, NOT ONLY AT WESTERN BUT AT UNIVERSITIES IN GENERAL).

 

THEY NEED MONEY FROM STUPID APPLICANTS.

 

AND THEY NEED TO CUT THEM OFF FROM SCIENCE, MEASURED IN 100s AND 100s.

 

 

If they retained 78% cutoff, or even 70% (which is the usual cutoff on many universities these days), MANY DUMB STUDENTS WOULD OVERFLOW THE SCIENCE DEPARTMENT AND THEY SIMPLY COULD NOT ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN. But they needed all that money, so they took money, and subsequently, they cutoff them not only from medsci, but from science as well.

 

 

I somehow feel you'll not understand this either: did I or did I not mention that I come from a high school with 2 (TWO) Nobel prize winners? A top school in Canada, consistently among the first 10 in Canada.

I don't understand why you want them to set higher cutoffs earlier. Either way, you'll need ~78%+ 2nd year to get into Med Sci 3. Setting that 78% cutoff for 1st year would prevent many capable students from getting into Med Sci 2. Maybe Western understands that not everyone will achieve a 78% average in first year due to various reasons, and don't want to punish them for it, so they set the average to proceed to 2nd year med sci at 60%. Either way, you'll need a 78-80%+ average in 2nd year to get into med sci 3, so if you're a capable student, you will still get in if you do well in 2nd year.

 

I disagree about cutting off candidates from high school. The university has no idea who will be able to do well in university and who wouldn't. Students could have high-90 averages in high school and do poorly in university, or mid 80 averages in high school and do very well in university. How is the university supposed to distinguish between them? What is wrong with accepting them and seeing how they perform in 1st and 2nd year? If they are capable applicants, they will still make it into Med Sci 3, but they cannot know who is capable until they are at Western taking courses.

 

And like you said, the intelligence of the general population is relatively constant. It's not like the class averages at Western are lower than any other school. It's not like they made evaluations harder to lower the class average, since the averages in first year science courses are almost all in the 70s this year.

 

I don't know why you have to put so much blame on the university for not being able to do well and get into med sci 3. There are like 500 students that get into med sci 3. I'd say that is a very high percentage.

You have to realize that almost every school has modules where entrance is competitive in 3rd year. Just because they don't market it as BMSc and BSc doesn't mean there isn't competition to get into those programs. If Western merged everything under BSc and just had students apply to the modules, it would be like any other school and you wouldn't be complaining.

[Edict]

I somehow feel you'll not understand this either: did I or did I not mention that I come from a high school with 2 (TWO) Nobel prize winners? A top school in Canada, consistently among the first 10 in Canada.

 

UTS? 

[navr]

There are 500 spaces in 3rd year BMSc; 1st year medical science has 750 students (information directly from BMSc pages listed below). They increased the upper year program sizes to accommodate for the expanded 1st year program a long time ago.

https://www.schulich.uwo.ca/bmsc/current_students/admission_progression/to_year_3_bmsc.html

https://www.schulich.uwo.ca/bmsc/future_students/applying/year_1.html

 

Roughly 500 students of the 750 from medical science 1 make it into BMSc in year 3. Doesn't sound great, but in the past—before Western expanded its program sizes—upper year BMSc only had 300 spots whilst there were 600 1st year medical science students. The ratio has actually improved dramatically (i.e. your chances have improved from 50% to 66%).

 

Of course, 33% attrition rate is no small number and you shouldn't feel bad if you didn't meet the requirements. Despite that, BMSc at Western in terms of proportions and absolute numbers is one of the best programs when it comes to sending students off to medical school.

 

FYI the requirements have not changed much from the past. 78% was the cumulative average cutoff before but you still needed at least 60% in every single science course without fails in any course. Current requirements are basically the same without the 78% cumulative average.

http://westerncalendar.uwo.ca/2016/pg1675.html

 

Aside from the fact that you have no proof that York students don't want to go to medical school, it's generally well known to most students that it's easier to achieve a high GPA at smaller universities and certain programs (e.g. York Kine). If you are comparing medical science to those schools/programs, then yes it is more difficult, but if you compare it to life science at Queens or UofT, it's roughly the same level of difficulty.

"Frequently Asked Questions Is admission competitive?

Yes.  As space in each program is limited, admission each year is competitive.  Minimum averages vary from year to year, depending  on the number and quality of applicants."

 

FORGET SCHULICH. FORGET RICHARD IVY. On numerous forums, students talk about manipulations of these institutions. The above is the official uwo statement. It states that MINIMUM AVERAGES VARY FROM YEAR TO YEAR. DEPENDING ON THE NUMBER. ON THE NUMBER.

 

Where are the numbers???

 

Well, put yourself in their position. Would you reveal all numbers and risk people deviate from their intentions to pursue western medsci, as the result.

 

Yes, I am talking from my own experience, and circumstantial evidence I gathered re an older medsci student (knowing his background, observing behaviour related to studying etc.)

I know for sure that the difficulty of all subjects had increased significantly in the last 2-3 years. I also know MOST of these "~500" (nobody reveals these numbers precisely) get 60s percentages. 70s percentages ARE A DREAM for MOST of these students. OF COURSE they had to remove 78% cumulative (if you are correct) limit. It did not align well with their adjustment oriented policies.

WHAT KIND OF UNIVERSITY OR PROGRAM CAN ALLOW ITSELF THAT ~80% OF POPULATION CAN ONLY DREAM ABOUT 70s PERCENTAGES IN SCIENCE 1ST YEAR SUBJECTS???

 

TWO answers:

1. ABUNDANCE OF APPLICANTS, YEAR AFTER YEAR.

Strategy: take their money and get rid of them.

How?

2. ESTABLISH SO CALLED "POOL" OF CANDIDATES.

What is the "pool"?? Didn't you already establish the pool when you selected the candidates during the application process? Yes, you may miss a percentage or two. After all, the statistics IS a science. But to miss 33% (as you say) or at least 50% (as I say), I say: SOMETHING IS FISHY.

In the 3rd year, people from ALL OVER CANADA, are accepted AT THEIR FACE VALUES, coming from institutions in British Columbia etc., including, I bet, york (!). And what were the york and similar acceptance criteria?

there is a site einfo, go and check.

ALMOST 20% LOWER CRITERIA IN SUCH INSTITUTIONS THAN WESTERN MEDSCI.

20%.

Conclusion: IF YOU SMART, YOU'LL GO TO YORK AND OBTAIN HIGH GPA (READ 75%, PIECE OF CAKE FOR YORK) AND YOU ARE AUTOMATICALLY IN THE - WESTERN MEDSCI POOL.

YES, THEY SAY "2ND YR WESTERN" WILL HAVE THE ADVANTAGE ALL THINGS EQUAL. But is it not already clear that HALF of these applicants are already destroyed, decimated, wasted. Not only for this year and only western. They are destroyed for life. Once you go through this torture you are done. And here come fresh blood, an influx from "foreigners" WHO HAD THE EASIEST TIME ON EARTH EVER TO OBTAIN 75% OR 85% OR SIMILAR. THEY TAKE HALF IF NEED BE OF AVAILABLE SPACES. Are they better than those decimated in the 1st yr medsci? Of course not. I have the proof. I know for sure that on those easy programs there are so called "packages". you buy these packages with solutions and that is what is going to be on the exam 80% of the time. The packages I found for 1st yr medsci can give you 30% AT MOST. In other words, they are not helpful.

It is not a rocket science:

Go to easy program.

Buy the package.

Obtain 85% or whatever is needed and apply at 3rd yr western medsci.

You are in.

I am out.

 

As simple as that.

So one may ask: why do they prefer those fresh influx of candidates??

 

Good question, but an easy aanswer:

 

THEY DO NOT CARE.

THEY WANT EXTRA MONEY, AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

IF THE REVERSE WAS TRUE AND THEY HAD ACCEPTED ALL THOSE FRESH INFLUX CANDIDATES IN THE 1ST YEAR (AND CONSEQUENTLY DECIMATED THEM), AND ME AND OTHER 1ST YEAR DROPOUT APPLIED IN 3RD YEAR MEDSCI POOL PROGRAM, AND SUBSEQUENTLY ACCEPTED, THEY WOULD NOT CARE. ALL THEY WANT IS THE EXTRA MONEY FROM STUPID CANDIDATES LIKE MYSELF. OF COURSE, IF THERE IS A SINGLE PLACE AVAILABLE IN THE 3RD YR AND NO CANDIDATES, THEY'LL GRAB A COW FROM A NEARBY FIELD AND ENROL IT IN THE 3RD YR MEDSCI. AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

 

Thus, the only true losers Iin all this shyte are people like me, 1st yr medsci applicants. DO NOT BE FOOL. GO ELSEWHERE, ANYWHERE. AND COME BACK IN 3RD YR IF YOU REALLY LIKE IT, EQUIPPED WITH A STRATOSPHERIC GPA.

Just like Schulich, Richard Ivy, the medsci 1st yr is a FAKE PROPOSITION, AIMED TO TAKE YOUR MONEY AND GIVE 75% OF YOU NOTHING IN RETURN (OF THOSE 300, ONLY 150 GET INTO A MED SCHOOL)

[navr]

I don't understand why you want them to set higher cutoffs earlier. Either way, you'll need ~78%+ 2nd year to get into Med Sci 3. Setting that 78% cutoff for 1st year would prevent many capable students from getting into Med Sci 2. Maybe Western understands that not everyone will achieve a 78% average in first year due to various reasons, and don't want to punish them for it, so they set the average to proceed to 2nd year med sci at 60%. Either way, you'll need a 78-80%+ average in 2nd year to get into med sci 3, so if you're a capable student, you will still get in if you do well in 2nd year.

 

I disagree about cutting off candidates from high school. The university has no idea who will be able to do well in university and who wouldn't. Students could have high-90 averages in high school and do poorly in university, or mid 80 averages in high school and do very well in university. How is the university supposed to distinguish between them? What is wrong with accepting them and seeing how they perform in 1st and 2nd year? If they are capable applicants, they will still make it into Med Sci 3, but they cannot know who is capable until they are at Western taking courses.

 

And like you said, the intelligence of the general population is relatively constant. It's not like the class averages at Western are lower than any other school. It's not like they made evaluations harder to lower the class average, since the averages in first year science courses are almost all in the 70s this year.

 

I don't know why you have to put so much blame on the university for not being able to do well and get into med sci 3. There are like 500 students that get into med sci 3. I'd say that is a very high percentage.

You have to realize that almost every school has modules where entrance is competitive in 3rd year. Just because they don't market it as BMSc and BSc doesn't mean there isn't competition to get into those programs. If Western merged everything under BSc and just had students apply to the modules, it would be like any other school and you wouldn't be complaining.

"The university has no idea who will be able to do well in university and who wouldn't. Students could have high-90 averages in high school and do poorly in university, or mid 80 averages in high school and do very well in university. " Unfortunately, you do not understand the principles of statistics. You have to learn about that. STATISTICS SHOULD BE ESSENTIAL FOR MEDSCI AND NOT SHYTE LIKE ENGINEERING CALCULUS ETC. Statistics is ESSENTIAL if you want to be a good doctor.

[_ _]

 

Buy the package.

Obtain 85% or whatever is needed and apply at 3rd yr western medsci.

You are in.

I am out.

 

As simple as that.

So one may ask: why do they prefer those fresh influx of candidates??

 

 

Thus, the only true losers Iin all this shyte are people like me, 1st yr medsci applicants. DO NOT BE FOOL. GO ELSEWHERE, ANYWHERE. AND COME BACK IN 3RD YR IF YOU REALLY LIKE IT, EQUIPPED WITH A STRATOSPHERIC GPA.

Just like Schulich, Richard Ivy, the medsci 1st yr is a FAKE PROPOSITION, AIMED TO TAKE YOUR MONEY AND GIVE 75% OF YOU NOTHING IN RETURN (OF THOSE 300, ONLY 150 GET INTO A MED SCHOOL)

 

This unexplained anger and resentment makes a whole lot more sense now.....

And by the way, the sole aim of the medsci program is not to get people into med school. 

[thethirdlaw]

For what it's worth, me and my friends have TA'd medsci courses the last two years. There have been 0 changes in difficulty since we were in the program. Hell, I even recognized a few similar questions from back in my day.

 

I'm not gonna continue arguing, visit the campus, speak to students, make an informed decision based on what you value and prefer.

 

As for statistics... my graduate program is in statistics, not sure what kind of causality you're trying to prove with descriptive statistics, but you do you.