Too Little, Too Late? Troubled Undergrad Seeking Options

[MightyMito]

Hey all, I’ve been a longtime lurker of these forums for a year now and finally have the courage to seek help. 

 

My undergrad has been tumultuous. Ever since first year, my grades have been below sub par, due to self-confidence issues and anxiety. With each C grade I received, the deeper I sunk in depression. 

 

Just after this November, I finally faced the reality of my situation and came clean to my parents and peers for support. I have since learned from my mistakes in my past two and half years, regained my self confidence, learned to love myself, adopted good study habits, am able to manage stress, and my grades are improving slowly. I also regained the passion to pursue my dream again, to work in health care. I have interest in pursuing nursing, applying for a masters in physiotherapy, however above all, my main love still is medicine. Based on my research, I know how competitive it is and I realize my grades are poor, and this dream isn't realistic. However I know options such as second undergrads exist, and I was hoping some knowledgeable folks on these forums may be able to offer some guidance. Brace yourselves for my stats:

 

Degree: Current 3rd Year BSc in Biology

Province: Alberta 

 

cGPA: 2.3

1st Year: 2.5

Summer Term: 2.7

2nd Year: 2.2

3rd Year First Term: 2.2

3rd Year Second Term:  Notable increase, on track for a 3.5 

 

MCAT: 504(Bio: 124, Phys: 125, PS: 128, Cars: 128)

 

Extra Curricular: (Cs denote continuing volunteering):

- C. 3 years of working in local hospital with Nutrition and Food Services delivering trays for patients

- C. 40 Hours as a volunteer of a physiotherapy clinic, educating patients on therapeutic exercise, preparing rooms, sitting in on assessments, and providing modalities using ultrasound and TENS. Loved my time here and will be continuing this summer. 

- C. 2 years of volunteering for a campus charity organization presenting science demonstrations to kids. Served first year as a presenter, second year as an executive, and next year I will be President. 

- C. Volunteered as an orientation leader for all summers since first year

- C. Volunteer at my local church proclaiming readings

-  8 years serving at a soup kitchen

 

What are my options (if I have any)? Unfortunately a 5th year is not a possibility for me, as I go to the UofA and the Faculty of Science does not allow you to pursue additional credits after the 120 needed for graduation. I’m guessing a 2nd undergrad degree will be the most realistic for me, and I’m open to taking on the additional schooling. Would it be possible to take a two year after degree? I’m aware of special criteria such as best two years in schools like Western, and am willing to apply anywhere in Canada. 

 

My current plan is to explore my options, continue on with my ECs, get the best grades I can achieve in the rest of my undergrad, and possibly rewrite the MCAT again this summer if there are still options for me to pursue medicine. 

 

 

I’ve been ashamed of my academic performance for years. I am now ready to make steps on achieving my goals. Any help is appreciated, thank you! 

[not my real name]

As you are well aware, yes, you will need a second degree to be eligible. Even with a 3.8+ in your 4th year your U3 gpa still wont be enough. Because of your cGPA you will be restricted to:

 

Ottawa: if your final year of undergrad is very strong then with two extra years at 3.9+ you would likely be OK

Queens: two year GPA

Western: two year GPA

Dalhousie: two year GPA

Mcgill: new degree only once u hit 45 credits

 

Some on this forum will tell you Calgary, but they are not a 2 year school, they just eliminate your worst year.

 

So that is 4 or 5 schools that would be possible assuming a big turnaround and a second degree.

 

If I were you I would focus all my energy on a strong 4th year GPA. You need to see if right now your are capable of getting the high GPA you need. Once you know that then think about a second degree. You don't want to jump right into a second degree if you don't know it'll be solid.

 

It is great that you've been able to increase your GPA so much this semester. Figure out what you're doing right and do more of that. It does need to be higher unfortunately but you are on the right track.

 

If you find after your 4th year the GPA is still not high enough, I would personally be hesitant to jump right back into school. Take some time off after your first degree if you need to. Working and volunteering for a couple years is not a bad idea. Shadow a doctor and really make sure you want this.

 

It's a marathon, not a sprint.

 

By the way, I did a second degree myself after a 2.9 first degree, and then a 3.95 second degree.

[_ _]

I agree with the above, second degree if you are able to get a 3.9+ fourth year. If not, maybe take some time off and be 100% your best, healthiest self, and try again in the future. Being from Alberta is a great plus, having 2 schools in-province will be great. However, as mentioned, neither are best 2-years schools so a second degree (2-3years) would be necessary to give you a strong shot at acceptance

 

It is absolutely not over for you, and the fact that you have begun such a strong turnaround shows so much about your focus and determination to achieve a goal. I know (been there....) that it's so hard to distance yourself mentally from poor grades even if they were due to health problems and start to see yourself as academically strong. But those years were reflective of an illness, not you, and are in no way predictive of your future grades

[GH0ST]

 

Hey all, I’ve been a longtime lurker of these forums for a year now and finally have the courage to seek help. 

 

My undergrad has been tumultuous. Ever since first year, my grades have been below sub par, due to self-confidence issues and anxiety. With each C grade I received, the deeper I sunk in depression. 

 

Just after this November, I finally faced the reality of my situation and came clean to my parents and peers for support. I have since learned from my mistakes in my past two and half years, regained my self confidence, learned to love myself, adopted good study habits, am able to manage stress, and my grades are improving slowly. I also regained the passion to pursue my dream again, to work in health care. I have interest in pursuing nursing, applying for a masters in physiotherapy, however above all, my main love still is medicine. Based on my research, I know how competitive it is and I realize my grades are poor, and this dream isn't realistic. However I know options such as second undergrads exist, and I was hoping some knowledgeable folks on these forums may be able to offer some guidance. Brace yourselves for my stats:

 

Degree: Current 3rd Year BSc in Biology

Province: Alberta 

 

cGPA: 2.3

1st Year: 2.5

Summer Term: 2.7

2nd Year: 2.2

3rd Year First Term: 2.2

3rd Year Second Term:  Notable increase, on track for a 3.5 

 

MCAT: 504(Bio: 124, Phys: 125, PS: 128, Cars: 128)

 

Extra Curricular: (Cs denote continuing volunteering):

- C. 3 years of working in local hospital with Nutrition and Food Services delivering trays for patients

- C. 40 Hours as a volunteer of a physiotherapy clinic, educating patients on therapeutic exercise, preparing rooms, sitting in on assessments, and providing modalities using ultrasound and TENS. Loved my time here and will be continuing this summer. 

- C. 2 years of volunteering for a campus charity organization presenting science demonstrations to kids. Served first year as a presenter, second year as an executive, and next year I will be President. 

- C. Volunteered as an orientation leader for all summers since first year

- C. Volunteer at my local church proclaiming readings

-  8 years serving at a soup kitchen

 

What are my options (if I have any)? Unfortunately a 5th year is not a possibility for me, as I go to the UofA and the Faculty of Science does not allow you to pursue additional credits after the 120 needed for graduation. I’m guessing a 2nd undergrad degree will be the most realistic for me, and I’m open to taking on the additional schooling. Would it be possible to take a two year after degree? I’m aware of special criteria such as best two years in schools like Western, and am willing to apply anywhere in Canada. 

 

My current plan is to explore my options, continue on with my ECs, get the best grades I can achieve in the rest of my undergrad, and possibly rewrite the MCAT again this summer if there are still options for me to pursue medicine. 

 

 

I’ve been ashamed of my academic performance for years. I am now ready to make steps on achieving my goals. Any help is appreciated, thank you! 

 

 

I'm unsure if you can even apply for graduate programs with your grades as most look at the last 60 credits .... you'd probably need to destroy 4th year to have a realistic chance at graduate school.

 

Setting that aside, graduate school (unless course based... and even then) GPA isn't always counted the same way (look at individual schools for their policies). I agree with the above poster that you probably will need a two year after-degree with continued high GPA. Your MCAT also needs to be significantly higher to be competitive. I don't know what you've been involved in but focus on improving your academic track record first. 

 

Most importantly, you probably realize this is going to be a marathon for you.... you'll need many years to recuperate and have a more realistic chance. Try to seek the necessary help + support and keep consistently improving from now on. 

 

Good luck,

 

- G

[TrueBlueTenenbaum]

 

Hey all, I’ve been a longtime lurker of these forums for a year now and finally have the courage to seek help. 

 

My undergrad has been tumultuous. Ever since first year, my grades have been below sub par, due to self-confidence issues and anxiety. With each C grade I received, the deeper I sunk in depression. 

 

Just after this November, I finally faced the reality of my situation and came clean to my parents and peers for support. I have since learned from my mistakes in my past two and half years, regained my self confidence, learned to love myself, adopted good study habits, am able to manage stress, and my grades are improving slowly. I also regained the passion to pursue my dream again, to work in health care. I have interest in pursuing nursing, applying for a masters in physiotherapy, however above all, my main love still is medicine. Based on my research, I know how competitive it is and I realize my grades are poor, and this dream isn't realistic. However I know options such as second undergrads exist, and I was hoping some knowledgeable folks on these forums may be able to offer some guidance. Brace yourselves for my stats:

 

Degree: Current 3rd Year BSc in Biology

Province: Alberta 

 

cGPA: 2.3

1st Year: 2.5

Summer Term: 2.7

2nd Year: 2.2

3rd Year First Term: 2.2

3rd Year Second Term:  Notable increase, on track for a 3.5 

 

MCAT: 504(Bio: 124, Phys: 125, PS: 128, Cars: 128)

 

Extra Curricular: (Cs denote continuing volunteering):

- C. 3 years of working in local hospital with Nutrition and Food Services delivering trays for patients

- C. 40 Hours as a volunteer of a physiotherapy clinic, educating patients on therapeutic exercise, preparing rooms, sitting in on assessments, and providing modalities using ultrasound and TENS. Loved my time here and will be continuing this summer. 

- C. 2 years of volunteering for a campus charity organization presenting science demonstrations to kids. Served first year as a presenter, second year as an executive, and next year I will be President. 

- C. Volunteered as an orientation leader for all summers since first year

- C. Volunteer at my local church proclaiming readings

-  8 years serving at a soup kitchen

 

What are my options (if I have any)? Unfortunately a 5th year is not a possibility for me, as I go to the UofA and the Faculty of Science does not allow you to pursue additional credits after the 120 needed for graduation. I’m guessing a 2nd undergrad degree will be the most realistic for me, and I’m open to taking on the additional schooling. Would it be possible to take a two year after degree? I’m aware of special criteria such as best two years in schools like Western, and am willing to apply anywhere in Canada. 

 

My current plan is to explore my options, continue on with my ECs, get the best grades I can achieve in the rest of my undergrad, and possibly rewrite the MCAT again this summer if there are still options for me to pursue medicine. 

 

 

I’ve been ashamed of my academic performance for years. I am now ready to make steps on achieving my goals. Any help is appreciated, thank you! 

 

Hey MM, Like others have said your self awareness and apparent willingness to persevere are great assets that shouldn't go undervalued.

I also agree that a second degree is your best shot at maximizing your shot at multiple schools in multiple regions,

but adding on a 5th year should your 4th year be successful is also an option along with re-writing the MCAT between those two years

(Not sure what a relative good score is on the new cat so excuse my ignorance if yours is stellar).

 

Positivity Perseverence Perspiration; pick your platitudes

[GH0ST]

Hey MM, Like others have said your self awareness and apparent willingness to persevere are great assets that shouldn't go undervalued.

I also agree that a second degree is your best shot at maximizing your shot at multiple schools in multiple regions,

but adding on a 5th year should your 4th year be successful is also an option along with re-writing the MCAT between those two years

(Not sure what a relative good score is on the new cat so excuse my ignorance if yours is stellar).

 

Positivity Perseverence Perspiration; pick your platitudes

 

UofA doesn't allow this anymore as of just a few years ago..... you have to do a second degree or declare open studies (not as sure about the latter).

 

I have... strong opinions about this. 

 

- G

[MightyMito]

Thank you all for the advice! It's good to hear there is still hope. I will do my best in improving my GPA next year, and will definitely do a second undergrad if my grades improve enough. 

To answer your concern Ghoststalker, yes, I am not eligible to apply for graduate programs with my current GPA. After being advised by UofA's Physio admissions, I will only be applying if my fourth year improves and after a term of additional study. 

Yep, you can't delay graduation at the UofA anymore, you either have to enrol in an after degree, or declare open studies (however that's limited to only two classes). 

I have another question. Is it worth it to withdraw if I may be doing a second degree anyways? I'm doing well on three of my classes, however I'm not doing too well in two of my classes right now (one of which is a pre-req for Physio). I have never withdrawn from a course before, and I would otherwise be expecting nothing higher than a C+ if I were to keep them. Dropping them would mean my GPA for the term would be closer to a 3.7-3.9. 



 

[GH0ST]

I have another question. Is it worth it to withdraw if I may be doing a second degree anyways? I'm doing well on three of my classes, however I'm not doing too well in two of my classes right now (one of which is a pre-req for Physio). I have never withdrawn from a course before, and I would otherwise be expecting nothing higher than a C+ if I were to keep them. Dropping them would mean my GPA for the term would be closer to a 3.7-3.9. 

 

 

If you withdraw now you should at the very least be prepared to take the physio-prereq again for next year.... figure out where you struggled and how to improve from that moment. The major problem I have here isn't the withdraw per say (although it's not exactly looking good)....... it's more that now you want to do better, and are still struggling to keep your grades up to competitive levels... you need to do a lot of self-reflection as to the cause of your less than ideal situation with these courses. 

 

You may also risk delaying graduation..... which will delay your ability to do an after-degree or open studies to boost your GPA........ however, that potential lost time is nothing compared to still bombing now. 

 

A lot of important questions that we can't answer for you......... but the short answer to it is you have significant thinking to do about the before and after...

 

- G 

[MightyMito]

If you withdraw now you should at the very least be prepared to take the physio-prereq again for next year.... figure out where you struggled and how to improve from that moment. The major problem I have here isn't the withdraw per say (although it's not exactly looking good)....... it's more that now you want to do better, and are still struggling to keep your grades up to competitive levels... you need to do a lot of self-reflection as to the cause of your less than ideal situation with these courses. 

 

You may also risk delaying graduation..... which will delay your ability to do an after-degree or open studies to boost your GPA........ however, that potential lost time is nothing compared to still bombing now. 

 

A lot of important questions that we can't answer for you......... but the short answer to it is you have significant thinking to do about the before and after...

 

- G 

Hey G, that helps me with my decision. Yes, much self-reflection was in due. I've been spending most of this week figuring out what went wrong with those two classes (despite doing much better on my other 3), and I think I have it figured it out. 

 

After being advised by physio admissions, I've decided I will definitely withdraw from the physio-prereq and take it again next year, seeing how it's the only preqreq in the program that is weighted separately from my sGPA in the application. I will take a spring course to make sure I graduate on time.

 

I'm still deciding on the other course. I've got some time to reflect on withdrawing as the withdrawal deadline with no academic penalty is so late at my school (first week of April). 

 

My main concern was whether or not these two withdrawals would impact any of my possible future applications. However upon research, I see that course-load doesn't matter for Physio. If I can pull my marks up for med, I still qualify as full-time studies according to the UofA and UofC. For the other eastern schools, any one that requires full course loads, mainly Dalhousie, Ottawa, Western, are only required for the most recent years of consideration for application. If I am wrong, please let me know! 

 

Thanks again!

[Bambi]

Double check Ottawa.

[MightyMito]

Double check Ottawa.

Checked on their website...

"The mark used at the various steps in the selection process is the weighted grade point average (WGPA), the calculation of which is calculated based on the applicants most recent three years of full-time undergraduate studies completed towards a bachelors degree in any recognized University. [...] A candidate who has completed more than the three required years, only the three most recent years of full-time undergraduate studies will be used to determine the WGP"

http://med.uottawa.ca/undergraduate/admissions/application-process/excellence-marks

 

And if it does turn out my withdrawal from a year before the three most recent affects my applications...

 

"A full-time academic year where the equivalent of four (4) full-year courses is taken is accepted and counted in the WGPA calculation only if the missing course/credit is completed either as an additional course within another academic year or as a summer course. Individual courses taken during a summer session are accepted for the credit value in this instance however the mark obtained is not counted in the calculation of the WGPA. Any year with less than four full-year courses will not count as a full-time year of study. A full-time summer semester does not replace a semester of studies within an academic year."

http://med.uottawa.ca/undergraduate/admissions/application-process/eligibility-requirements

 

So I believe it should be fine?

 

 

 

 

[Slashsev]

i would research  USDO and IMG options

[watyoulookinat]

Remember! GPA does not define you. You clearly, based on your extracurriculars, are a wonderful, driven and passionate individual. You are meant to work with people, you are meant to be a leader. If Medicine is your passion, then keep doing what you're doing - pursue it with all your heart. 

The GPA is a set-back, but it cannot stop you. Definitely do a 2-year after-degree -- maybe take the minimum # of courses to be considered full-time, which is 3, and it will lighten the stress. Will also allow you to continue your EC's for longer. Or, apply to another professional program - education? nursing? Whatever you do, don't give up! Also, kudos on that upward trend you got going! The hardest challenge for low-gpaers is to overcome the "you are not your GPA" + "believing in change". If you were once a 2.9er doesn't mean you belong there. Circumstances, learning curve etc. What counts is that you keep learning and keep going. It's a tough ride for us, a daily struggle to keep our heads up but we can't give up. 

[Mittehitankagin]

minimum # of courses to be considered full-time, which is 3, and it will lighten the stress.

 

Hi, sorry I had to comment on this line because although 3 courses is considered full-time at the university, most medical schools require you to take a full course load (which, for them, counts as 5 courses per semester). Otherwise they ignore that year in their gpa calculations... which would you back to square 1. Just had to clarify on this.

 

 

 

Or, apply to another professional program - education? nursing?

 

To clarify on this as well, some med schools (can't remember which) do not accept professional degrees for some odd reason... I don't really see the reasoning as to why not (and maybe someone can enlighten us on this) but be careful on this one.

 

I am still fairly new to all this as well but have been doing lots and lots of reading over the past month in preparation for my 2nd undergrad (starting in Fall of 2017!). So be careful to look up every piece of information you need.

[NJM]

I see a lot of great comments here and completely agree with you continuing to strive forward, trying to gain some perspective on your short comings and pull the highest GPA you can. Recognizing that you may have to do a second undergrad can feel defeating. Don't let that weigh you down. There are so many options to consider that can enhance your ECs, give you a mental break after years of schooling and return refreshed. Think about careers you could enjoy that you can apply for after graduation next year. Having a short term future aspiration may make you feel better about longterm future goals. 

 

For me personally, I wanted to eliminate the debt of my first degree before starting a second degree. I don't normally advise people to enter the federal service but the Correctional Service of Canada provides job security, decent salary and in Alberta there are several prisons with high need for correctional officers. Now, most people in the general public are shocked when you propose the correctional officer position, regular dramatized stereotypes come to mind. I however believe the opportunities within the prison allow you to show the positive attributes required of a doctor. For instance, it is not all 'bad cop'. You have to learn how to communicate with individuals from varying backgrounds (low IQ, the mentally disturbed) and sometimes in high stress situations. I believe it gives you a huge background on ethics, you are the first responder to a group of people deemed too dangerous for society.   That child murder/rapist. You hold their hand and comfort them during a appendicitis attack. That gang member. You rush to perform first aid to stab wounds while acting as a leader, taking charge of the scene and maintaining control. The drug addict who has overdosed. You pound on their chest while vomit rolls from their mouth, knowing fully well they had passed long ago. Now this may not be your thing, and maybe it is my own point of view, but it excites the shit out of me. Those alarms sound and I run across the prison throwing on my gloves in pursuit of the unknown. Anyways, its a good paying career with lots of opportunity in your area that you may have never considered. Those examples above are about 20% of your work time.The other 80% are really spend with a lot of downtime. So with that I do online courses! The employer also has to adjust your schedule for in-class courses too! So basically I do my schooling while at work, leaving my days off for me and my family. 

 

I just wanted to mention it as I feel it is an under looked job. Where you are an Alberta resident holding a degree you should have no problems getting a position, quickly, in your area (edmonton). If you decide to ever apply message me. The federal government has a quirky way to do applications and you have to be very specific in your answers (reiterate essential criteria verbatim basically). Think short term goals with longterm outlook.