Rank List

[nastyhombre]

Hey everyone,

My understanding of the match algorithm is admittedly very poor, but I understand we should rank by preferred program and not game the system.

 

That said, how low on the list can a program be before matching to it becomes improbable? 

If you rank 30+ programs, are you more likely to go unmatched than to match to your 25th selection?

 

Thanks!

 

[ellorie]

You won't game the system - it's not possible.  How you rank a program does not affect your chances of matching there (except in that you may match somewhere else before they get that far down your list).

[ralk]

Hey everyone,

My understanding of the match algorithm is admittedly very poor, but I understand we should rank by preferred program and not game the system.

 

That said, how low on the list can a program be before matching to it becomes improbable? 

If you rank 30+ programs, are you more likely to go unmatched than to match to your 25th selection?

 

Thanks!

 

Before saying anything else, I'll reinforce the recommendation, rank in the order of your preference, no exceptions.

 

Realistically, very few people match to lower-ranked programs. The majority match to their first choice program and the majority of those who don't match to one in their top 3. It all decreases exponentially from there. More people go unmatched than match lower down on their rank order list than 10th or so. To use your specific example, only one person matched to their 25th ranked program last year, and only about 20 people matched further down the list from there - most of whom were likely couples matching.

 

This has nothing to do with the algorithm though. Rather, it's a result of people putting more effort into the programs they desire highly, which then become their top ranked programs. Once people fail to match to the programs they've ranked highly and put their best effort into, their chances of matching to the lower-ranked programs they've invested less time into understandably are pretty low. However, if you really worked hard to make yourself competitive for a program, but in the end decided you didn't particularly like that program, you aren't going to hurt your chances to match there by ranking it low. As long as it's on your rank order list, you chances of matching there are unaffected - unless, of course, you match to a higher ranked program!

[bentobox1234]

edit: delete

[Manchester1]

I have been surprised talking to my colleagues this month and realizing how few people really get the match. 

 

Please understand this: you will match at the place you want the most that has a place for you. That is all. It doesn't matter how much you think they want you. Rank your 1st choice first. 2nd choice 2nd. And so on. Failing to do so means you are misunderstanding the process. 

[rmorelan]

I have been surprised talking to my colleagues this month and realizing how few people really get the match. 

 

Please understand this: you will match at the place you want the most that has a place for you. That is all. It doesn't matter how much you think they want you. Rank your 1st choice first. 2nd choice 2nd. And so on. Failing to do so means you are misunderstanding the process. 

 

and yet no matter how often we scream people don't do it.

 

I really think we HAVE to do a better job of explaining why that is the case, and why did makes NO sense to do anything else. I have seen people try to game the system end up completely at the wrong location for themselves. Not optimal.

[Mithcah]

Does the "rank your preference, no exceptions" rule even extend to places where you didn't receive an interview? The informational video by CaRMS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7_YDpugiDw#t=02m16s) suggests that we should even rank the programs that did not give us interviews. Say that my preference is A>B>C but I didn't receive interview for B.

 

Do I

 

1) Still rank A>B>C since that is my preference even though the chances of me matching to B are essentially zero, or

2) Rank A>C>B since A and C are the only places that I have significant chances at?

[ralk]

Does the "rank your preference, no exceptions" rule even extend to places where you didn't receive an interview? The informational video by CaRMS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7_YDpugiDw#t=02m16s) suggests that we should even rank the programs that did not give us interviews. Say that my preference is A>B>C but I didn't receive interview for B.

 

Do I

 

1) Still rank A>B>C since that is my preference even though the chances of me matching to B are essentially zero, or

2) Rank A>C>B since A and C are the only places that I have significant chances at?

 

A>B>C is the optimal rank order, in accordance to your preferences, even if you didn't get an interview.

 

Realistically, because your chances of matching to B are essentially zero, it is exceedingly unlikely to make a difference, but the algorithm gives you no penalty for ranking long-shot or even zero-shot programs highly. 

[FeelingTheBern]

Hi everyone,

The following is a link to the explanation of the matching algorithm from National Matching Services (NMS). I hope this supports why all candidates should rank by preference.

Cheers,
Bern

*Edit- CaRMs uses/licenses the matching algorithm from NMS.

[explodingmuffins]

A>B>C is the optimal rank order, in accordance to your preferences, even if you didn't get an interview.

 

Realistically, because your chances of matching to B are essentially zero, it is exceedingly unlikely to make a difference, but the algorithm gives you no penalty for ranking long-shot or even zero-shot programs highly. 

 

 

I thought I understood the algorithm, but for some reason this confuses me... I know to rank in my order of preference, but let's say you get an interview at A, B, D, and E. You want to go to C, and are not interviewing there.

 

If you rank C > A > B > D > E, would it "deprioritize" your choice of A and harm your chances of matching to A instead since it was lower on your list? I kind of know the answer is no, but it still makes me worry that it somehow will lol. 

[ralk]

I thought I understood the algorithm, but for some reason this confuses me... I know to rank in my order of preference, but let's say you get an interview at A, B, D, and E. You want to go to C, and are not interviewing there.

 

If you rank C > A > B > D > E, would it "deprioritize" your choice of A and harm your chances of matching to A instead since it was lower on your list? I kind of know the answer is no, but it still makes me worry that it somehow will lol. 

 

The answer is no, ranking C > A > B > D > E would not affect your chances of matching to any other program unless program C ranked you and ranked you highly enough for you to match to it as your first choice. If C rejects you outright, there is no difference between the list you provided and ranking A > B > D > E and omitting C entirely.

[psychiatry2017]

Anyone having trouble ranking ??

I am still undecided between Family medicine and psychiatry, and would appreciate if someone in the same boat share their view of things!

I would see myself in both, and I am afraid that I might miss the physical medicine in psychiatry.

 

If ever I end up ranking psychiatry first, it is easy for psych residents to switch to FM later?

The best scenario is to figure out what speciality suits me the most now lol until February 16th at 15 EST.

 

Also, anyone ranks the programs where they did not receive an interview? or we better leave them unranked?

Thanks guys for your input and help

[freewheeler]

Anyone having trouble ranking ??

I am still undecided between Family medicine and psychiatry, and would appreciate if someone in the same boat share their view of things!

I would see myself in both, and I am afraid that I might miss the physical medicine in psychiatry.

 

If ever I end up ranking psychiatry first, it is easy for psych residents to switch to FM later?

The best scenario is to figure out what speciality suits me the most now lol until February 16th at 15 EST.

 

Also, anyone ranks the programs where they did not receive an interview? or we better leave them unranked?

Thanks guys for your input and help

 

To be entirely honest, only you can make the decision between family medicine and psychiatry as it is your life and only you are privy to your personal reasons as to why you are particularly drawn to either field.

 

To answer your question about transferring from psych to FM I would assume it would be easier than the other way around as you would be bringing your ~5 years of funding with you compared to trying to go from FM with ~2 years of funding into a 5 year residency.

 

That is my limited understanding but perhaps there are further factors I am not aware of that other more senior members can illuminate.

 

I am not entirely sure about your last question, but the consensus seems to be to always rank in order of your preference for attending various programs above all else.

[psychiatry2017]

Hey thanks!

For my second question, on CaRMS Rank Order List, we still have those programs where we did not receive an interview invite on our rank list. It seems impossible to delete those programs anyway, I tried lol

So I wonder if the majority of people end up not ranking the programs where they did not receive an interview? or rank them regardless?

Thanks a bunch

[schmitty]

Hey thanks!

For my second question, on CaRMS Rank Order List, we still have those programs where we did not receive an interview invite on our rank list. It seems impossible to delete those programs anyway, I tried lol

So I wonder if the majority of people end up not ranking the programs where they did not receive an interview? or rank them regardless?

Thanks a bunch

I'm just not ranking them....but really it doesn't matter (read above)

[Lactic Folly]

Everyone knows several people who have transferred residencies, but there is no guarantee. A switch requires that the receiving program director has room for you and would like to have you.

 

It's very unlikely that the programs who did not interview you (assuming this means reject before interview) will rank you, so as said above, it doesn't matter whether you rank them or not.

[ellorie]

I wouldn't say that switching is ever easy.  Anecdotally we had one person in my cohort go to family medicine at the end of PGY1.  But my understanding is you don't get credit for all of your rotations, and it's dependent on whether the program you want has slots to take you.

 

Psychiatry and FM are pretty different fields in many ways.  Think about if you like the bread and butter.  Do you like well-person care, hypertension, diabetes?  Or do you like anxiety and depression?  Do you like 15 minute appointments, seeing tons of stuff in a day, and knowing something about the whole breadth of medicine?  Or do you like spending 50 minutes at a time, getting into all the details and really knowing your area in depth?  How important is it to you to be done and practicing in two years versus five?

[psychiatry2017]

Thanks for your input Ellorie, I really appreciated it!

From my understanding, the GPs and Psychiatrists bill around the same in Ontario right?

I am asking this, because I am in my late 30's and have kids to raise, and LOC to repay, I hope that my question won't offend anyone

I wouldn't say that switching is ever easy.  Anecdotally we had one person in my cohort go to family medicine at the end of PGY1.  But my understanding is you don't get credit for all of your rotations, and it's dependent on whether the program you want has slots to take you.

 

Psychiatry and FM are pretty different fields in many ways.  Think about if you like the bread and butter.  Do you like well-person care, hypertension, diabetes?  Or do you like anxiety and depression?  Do you like 15 minute appointments, seeing tons of stuff in a day, and knowing something about the whole breadth of medicine?  Or do you like spending 50 minutes at a time, getting into all the details and really knowing your area in depth?  How important is it to you to be done and practicing in two years versus five?

[rmorelan]

I'm just not ranking them....but really it doesn't matter (read above)

 

yeah it would likely make no difference ha. The schools are unlikely to rank anyone they haven't interviewed so all in all it would have no effect. 

[rmorelan]

Thanks for your input Ellorie, I really appreciated it!

From my understanding, the GPs and Psychiatrists bill around the same in Ontario right?

I am asking this, because I am in my late 30's and have kids to raise, and LOC to repay, I hope that my question won't offend anyone

 

In Ontario right now they do earn roughly the same

 

Your question shouldn't - I mean of course you should know all the facts prior to making a career choice, ha  

[ellorie]

I think we do about the same financially, and my understanding is that job prospects are good for both specialties, though I am obviously more familiar with my own.  Both professions have more and less lucrative practice models depending on what you value.  Probably family medicine has a bit more breadth in terms of things you can do to earn cash on the side though.

 

What do you think is making it so hard to make a decision?

[ellorie]

Personally I could not do family medicine because I don't really enjoy the routine management of non-psychiatric chronic illness, 15 minute appointments is too rushed for my anxiety level to tolerate, and I like being really immersed in my own small area and knowing it back to front.  But that's just me.

[psychiatry2017]

Thanks Ellorie for your input and honest opinion.

My age is a big factor, I am in my late 30s, have kids to raise, and although we all have debts in med school, my LOC is almost reaching its limit LOL

I really enjoyed FM and psych rotations, and would see myself in both, and with ROL coming up, I have to make a tough decision between those two specialties.

Both are lifestyle specialties, and would allow me to have spare time with family...The only difference is the length of training  I guess that I just get tired of being the med student, or being the resident; it might have something to do with my age and my previous work experience

I think we do about the same financially, and my understanding is that job prospects are good for both specialties, though I am obviously more familiar with my own.  Both professions have more and less lucrative practice models depending on what you value.  Probably family medicine has a bit more breadth in terms of things you can do to earn cash on the side though.

 

What do you think is making it so hard to make a decision?

[psychiatry2017]

Hey guys, I have found this video on youtube, by CaRMS on how to submit a ROL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rqwdCNuwhs

 

I still don't understand their recommendation of ranking all programs, even where WE DID NOT get an interview, well, CaRMS is CaRMS

[Intel21]

 

 

I still don't understand their recommendation of ranking all programs, even where WE DID NOT get an interview, well, CaRMS is CaRMS

Should we rank a program we DID NOT interview at above another program we did interview at for preference reasons?