rmorelan Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 Should we rank a program we DID NOT interview at above another program we did interview at for preference reasons? yes you should always always rank in the order of your preference. The probability of that school actually accepting you is completely irrelevant. Even if they didn't interview you - if you are going to rank them, then rank them in order of preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychiatry2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 Anyone who has the time to explain why we should rank programs WHERE we DID NOT get an interview?? Because the uninvited applicants won't be on the program's ROL? Won't it be better to leave those programs unranked? Thanks so much yes you should always always rank in the order of your preference. The probability of that school actually accepting you is completely irrelevant. Even if they didn't interview you - if you are going to rank them, then rank them in order of preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmitty Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 Anyone who has the time to explain why we should rank programs WHERE we DID NOT get an interview?? Because the uninvited applicants won't be on the program's ROL? Won't it be better to leave those programs unranked? Thanks so much It doesn't matter....so might as well just rank everything is the idea....SO no, it won't be 'better' to leave those programs unranked. It would essentially be the same :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 Anyone who has the time to explain why we should rank programs WHERE we DID NOT get an interview?? Because the uninvited applicants won't be on the program's ROL? Won't it be better to leave those programs unranked? Thanks so much well the point is that if there is even the slightest chance above zero - Even it is 0.000000000000000001% chance they do for whatever reason rank you then you left with an incredibly small chance they could accept you and absolutely NO chance ranking them would hurt you (as the algorithm protects you like that). You are right almost certainly they won't rank you so it is pointless of course. Still it is just the extreme example of what everyone has been saying here - their preference towards you doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skysurfer64 Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 So I know that we are to rank in order of preference, but I had a question regarding how programs rank candidates? How much in general does doing an undergrad/grad or med school or core/elective at a residency program affect ranking? After going through the tour and meeting so many candidates, I can't imagine how tough it is for programs to rank! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 So I know that we are to rank in order of preference, but I had a question regarding how programs rank candidates? How much in general does doing an undergrad/grad or med school or core/elective at a residency program affect ranking? After going through the tour and meeting so many candidates, I can't imagine how tough it is for programs to rank! It is horribly difficult We have a pass fail system, we have no standardized tests, we have no real award system for solid students, we have no standardized clerkship evaluation, we have subjective LORs, subjective clerskhip evals, we might have an onsite elective or maybe not and some care about that and some do not. we do have proxy measures - research perhaps, ECs perhaps... that can help. Plus there is a lot of people to rank - Students may rank say 10 schools - they have to rank often 10 times that or more. each program as you know will just make their own combination of scoring from what they have access to. It is a very imperfect system but everyone does the best they can within the limitations. For the most part it works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDaisy Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 I personally think that it is better to rank programs where you DID receive an interview, in order of personal preference. No point of ranking programs who refused you for interviews, the chance of the programs ranking you on their ROL is essentially zero. As Rmorelan mentionned, ranking programs where you DID NOT get an interview, should not affect your match result, because the algorithm protects the candidates' perference regardless. well the point is that if there is even the slightest chance above zero - Even it is 0.000000000000000001% chance they do for whatever reason rank you then you left with an incredibly small chance they could accept you and absolutely NO chance ranking them would hurt you (as the algorithm protects you like that). You are right almost certainly they won't rank you so it is pointless of course. Still it is just the extreme example of what everyone has been saying here - their preference towards you doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvestpro Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 Thanks for your input Ellorie, I really appreciated it! From my understanding, the GPs and Psychiatrists bill around the same in Ontario right? I am asking this, because I am in my late 30's and have kids to raise, and LOC to repay, I hope that my question won't offend anyone You have to keep in mind overhead too. They may bill the same, but family may have higher expenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychiatry2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 For overhead, if I open a FM clinic with a few colleague of mine, does that cut down the rent, the facility and the secretary? For outpatient psychiatrists, they work in private clinics, I guess that they pay similar amount of overhead as GP? Thanks for everyone's feedback, it is super helpful You have to keep in mind overhead too. They may bill the same, but family may have higher expenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvestpro Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 For overhead, if I open a FM clinic with a few colleague of mine, does that cut down the rent, the facility and the secretary? For outpatient psychiatrists, they work in private clinics, I guess that they pay similar amount of overhead as GP? Thanks for everyone's feedback, it is super helpful Yeah, most GP offices are shared with another physician. This has obvious benefits for covering your patients when you are on vacation, or unable to make it. But it helps split the overhead. For psychiatry you only really need some walls, a desk, a chair, and a secretary. For family practice, there can be a high initial overhead paying for the examination tables, ottoscopes, opthalmoscope, etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amichel Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 well the point is that if there is even the slightest chance above zero - Even it is 0.000000000000000001% chance they do for whatever reason rank you then you left with an incredibly small chance they could accept you and absolutely NO chance ranking them would hurt you (as the algorithm protects you like that). You are right almost certainly they won't rank you so it is pointless of course. Still it is just the extreme example of what everyone has been saying here - their preference towards you doesn't matter. While I understand the principle, I personally wouldn't rank a program that didn't interview me above ones that did. Why would I want to go somewhere that doesn't want me at all? CaRMS is a two way process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 While I understand the principle, I personally wouldn't rank a program that didn't interview me above ones that did. Why would I want to go somewhere that doesn't want me at all? CaRMS is a two way process. ahhh but in that case we still agree I mean ranking in order of preference means not ranking places you would simple not want to go as well. soooo much splitting of hairs, ha Your point is not a bad one at all - going for something sight unseen is a bit odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralk Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 While I understand the principle, I personally wouldn't rank a program that didn't interview me above ones that did. Why would I want to go somewhere that doesn't want me at all? CaRMS is a two way process. If they don't want you at all, they won't rank you and it won't matter how you rank them. If they do want you, they'll rank you, and it will matter how you rank them. A candidate's ROL should be completely, 100% independent of beliefs, even very well-founded beliefs, of what the programs' ROLs look like. If not getting an interview changes your opinion of that program to the point that you would rather go unmatched than match to them, that's fine, don't rank them. But if a program is still even remotely more attractive than going unmatched it should be ranked and ranked according to your preferences, even if the chances of matching there are infinitesimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDaisy Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 Hey Ralk, I think that all the programs rank ONLY candidates invited for interviews. A lot of competitive programs end up ranking only the majority of the invited candidates (if they don't think you are good fit after the interview) What I want to say if you don't rank programs who REFUSED you for interview, it does not affect your chance of going unmatched, because it changes nothing. Your chance of matching to programs who refused you for interview, is essentially zero. However, if you end up not ranking programs who invited you for interviews (due to geography or personal reasons), yes your chance of going unmatched is higher. Thanks for your contribution, I high respect your opinion and just want to chime in here! If they don't want you at all, they won't rank you and it won't matter how you rank them. If they do want you, they'll rank you, and it will matter how you rank them. A candidate's ROL should be completely, 100% independent of beliefs, even very well-founded beliefs, of what the programs' ROLs look like. If not getting an interview changes your opinion of that program to the point that you would rather go unmatched than match to them, that's fine, don't rank them. But if a program is still even remotely more attractive than going unmatched it should be ranked and ranked according to your preferences, even if the chances of matching there are infinitesimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralk Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 Hey Ralk, I think that all the programs rank ONLY candidates invited for interviews. A lot of competitive programs end up ranking only the majority of the invited candidates (if they don't think you are good fit after the interview) What I want to say if you don't rank programs who REFUSED you for interview, it does not affect your chance of going unmatched, because it changes nothing. Your chance of matching to programs who refused you for interview, is essentially zero. However, if you end up not ranking programs who invited you for interviews (due to geography or personal reasons), yes your chance of going unmatched is higher. Thanks for your contribution, I high respect your opinion and just want to chime in here! Yes, you're right, realistically it's not going to make a difference in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases (essentially in all known situations). Programs who don't offer a candidate an interview don't rank them and never have as far as anyone knows. However, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. And who's to say a PD can't click the wrong button and accidentally rank you? Is it at all likely to happen? Of course not. Is it impossible? No. That's the point - ranking programs who don't interview you has no adverse effects and theoretically could have a positive (presuming, of course, you'd like to match to that program). Ranking programs who don't interview you gives you a near-zero chance of matching to them. Not ranking programs who don't interview you gives you a zero chance of matching to them. Near-zero > zero. I know I and others are kind of stuck on this point, but it's an important one when it comes to a broader understanding of the CaRMS match process. The algorithm is perfectly designed to let both candidates and programs rank each other according to their preferences without penalty, in all cases, no exceptions. That includes when programs don't offer an interview. What worries me is not that people won't rank programs they didn't interview at. It's exceedingly unlikely that decision will make a difference one way or the other, even if it technically results in a sub-optimal ROL. What worries me is that when applicants hear "I shouldn't rank programs that didn't offer me an interview", it breaks that no exceptions rule. And then people start coming up with other exceptions to the rule. And that leads to sub-optimal ROLs that do make a difference to an applicant's match results, like ranking a program low because they think they have no chance at a program. Medical students in general are too smart for their own good and are always looking for ways to out-think the system, to find flaws in the suggested strategy - when it comes to the CaRMS ROL, that's a recipe for disaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychiatry2017 Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 I like your explanation...aha, how cunny!!! For the moment, I am not ranking programs where I did not get an interview, because I feel that it is pointless...but you have already swayed me a bit Best of luck to you, hope that you will get your first choice Yes, you're right, realistically it's not going to make a difference in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases (essentially in all known situations). Programs who don't offer a candidate an interview don't rank them and never have as far as anyone knows. However, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. And who's to say a PD can't click the wrong button and accidentally rank you? Is it at all likely to happen? Of course not. Is it impossible? No. That's the point - ranking programs who don't interview you has no adverse effects and theoretically could have a positive (presuming, of course, you'd like to match to that program). Ranking programs who don't interview you gives you a near-zero chance of matching to them. Not ranking programs who don't interview you gives you a zero chance of matching to them. Near-zero > zero. I know I and others are kind of stuck on this point, but it's an important one when it comes to a broader understanding of the CaRMS match process. The algorithm is perfectly designed to let both candidates and programs rank each other according to their preferences without penalty, in all cases, no exceptions. That includes when programs don't offer an interview. What worries me is not that people won't rank programs they didn't interview at. It's exceedingly unlikely that decision will make a difference one way or the other, even if it technically results in a sub-optimal ROL. What worries me is that when applicants hear "I shouldn't rank programs that didn't offer me an interview", it breaks that no exceptions rule. And then people start coming up with other exceptions to the rule. And that leads to sub-optimal ROLs that do make a difference to an applicant's match results, like ranking a program low because they think they have no chance at a program. Medical students in general are too smart for their own good and are always looking for ways to out-think the system, to find flaws in the suggested strategy - when it comes to the CaRMS ROL, that's a recipe for disaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amichel Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 If they don't want you at all, they won't rank you and it won't matter how you rank them. If they do want you, they'll rank you, and it will matter how you rank them. A candidate's ROL should be completely, 100% independent of beliefs, even very well-founded beliefs, of what the programs' ROLs look like. If not getting an interview changes your opinion of that program to the point that you would rather go unmatched than match to them, that's fine, don't rank them. But if a program is still even remotely more attractive than going unmatched it should be ranked and ranked according to your preferences, even if the chances of matching there are infinitesimal. I think you misunderstood my point. I understand the algorithm. I just meant that a program who didn't interview me would automatically be lower on MY preference list because they obviously aren't a good fit. If others feel differently, they should rank accordingly, because you're completely right. I just meant for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralk Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 I think you misunderstood my point. I understand the algorithm. I just meant that a program who didn't interview me would automatically be lower on MY preference list because they obviously aren't a good fit. If others feel differently, they should rank accordingly, because you're completely right. I just meant for me. Sorry, I tried to make it clear that I understood your reasoning for the specific situation, but didn't phrase my answer very well. I mostly just wanted to push back against the "they don't want me, so I don't want them" line of thinking as a general rule, since in other situations, it can lead to some poor ROL decision-making, as I tried to detail in my post at the top of this page (in an similarly poorly-phrased way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amichel Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 Sorry, I tried to make it clear that I understood your reasoning for the specific situation, but didn't phrase my answer very well. I mostly just wanted to push back against the "they don't want me, so I don't want them" line of thinking as a general rule, since in other situations, it can lead to some poor ROL decision-making, as I tried to detail in my post at the top of this page (in an similarly poorly-phrased way). Right. Makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas098083453 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Can someone let me know if this makes sense... If I applied to a program (eg. Dalhousie Halifax) and they have 16 spots and they ranked me somewhere in the top 16 but I ranked them as my second choice, does that mean I am guaranteed to be placed there if I do not get my first choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted January 22, 2018 Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Thomas098083453 said: Can someone let me know if this makes sense... If I applied to a program (eg. Dalhousie Halifax) and they have 16 spots and they ranked me somewhere in the top 16 but I ranked them as my second choice, does that mean I am guaranteed to be placed there if I do not get my first choice? Yes. If you weren’t ranked high enough to match to your first choice, the algorithm goes to your next choice and determines if you were ranked high enough by the program to match there. It repeats this process as many times as necessary to make a match. You match to your highest ranked program that it is possible for you to match to. That’s how it’s built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holiday1001 Posted January 22, 2018 Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 On 1/31/2017 at 9:56 PM, LittleDaisy said: Hey Ralk, I think that all the programs rank ONLY candidates invited for interviews. A lot of competitive programs end up ranking only the majority of the invited candidates (if they don't think you are good fit after the interview) This is WRONG, please stop spreading misinformation. There are certain programs that actually say *even if you didn't get an interview, we still will rank you*. they may be rare, but it is certainly not impossible. It WILL NOT HURT YOU to rank a place you didn't interview. Whether or not you want to go there is completely separate from whether or not they decided to interview you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermviser Posted January 22, 2018 Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 1 hour ago, holiday1001 said: This is WRONG, please stop spreading misinformation. There are certain programs that actually say *even if you didn't get an interview, we still will rank you*. they may be rare, but it is certainly not impossible. What program is this? Has anyone ever heard of someone matching at a program they didn't interview? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted January 22, 2018 Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 1 hour ago, holiday1001 said: This is WRONG, please stop spreading misinformation. There are certain programs that actually say *even if you didn't get an interview, we still will rank you*. they may be rare, but it is certainly not impossible. It WILL NOT HURT YOU to rank a place you didn't interview. Whether or not you want to go there is completely separate from whether or not they decided to interview you. I think the point is, the vast majority of programs are not ranking people they didn't extend an interview to. Why on earth would a program, unless they really are worried about filling, rank someone they didn't offer an interview? But of course, there is absolutely zero downside(unless there is an extra cost?) to still ranking programs that didn't interview you..banking on some sort of hail mary, or better yet behind the scenes nepotism/string pulling..or administrative error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goleafsgochris Posted January 22, 2018 Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 9 hours ago, holiday1001 said: This is WRONG, please stop spreading misinformation. There are certain programs that actually say *even if you didn't get an interview, we still will rank you*. they may be rare, but it is certainly not impossible. It WILL NOT HURT YOU to rank a place you didn't interview. Whether or not you want to go there is completely separate from whether or not they decided to interview you. I have never heard of this happening. I mean your right you might as well rank anyway because theres no downside, Ive just never heard of this and tbh don't really see how it can be true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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