Can you view your final exam (undergrad)

[OwnerOfTheTARDIS]

15 minutes ago, dana_2 said:

They can liberally blank out their questions, I know what they were. I need access to my answers - so I can appeal the grade. I also need reasons for the grade as very well Baker Supreme Court expressed it - and yes, this is just another Constitutional rule.

Ok, this seems to be getting out of hand.

Access to exams is provided by most (if not all) Canadian universities, but copying exams is not guaranteed by the 'constitution' or the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you can provide a link to where such rights are guaranteed, please post it and I will apologize for speaking in error. You will be given access to your answers and reasons for the grade, but you do not need a copy of the exam to achieve these purposes. You are free to try and sue the university, but I and a few others have tried to offer explanations of why that would be a waste of time. Your request is outside the scope of rules surrounding Freedom of Information in Canada. Universities are regulated by provincial Acts and as I posted above, Section 18 of Ontario's Act clearly states that access to education materials in a way that would affect testing procedures is not guaranteed. Teaching materials (including tests) are specifically excluded under FIPPA. 

Here is a link from the UofT's website: http://www.fippa.utoronto.ca/about.htm?

If you wish to appeal the grade, UofT already has policies and procedures laid out to make that possible. If you are frustrated with the procedure, access your Student's Union for advice and advocacy. 

The Baker v. Supreme Court case deals with immigration - not sure why you bring it up other than that the ruling required a reason for deportation be provided. You can obtain a reason for the grade you received without making a copy of the exam. 

Best of luck in your future endeavours. 

[dana_2]

I agree this is getting out of hand.  You guys have been a great help, in respect of the customs.

Please note though.

Constitutional Rights do not equal Charter of Rights and Freedom. That was only entered into account in 1982. They include many other things. Constitutional Rights = many acts before it (like the Constitutional Act 1864), and there is also whatever we inherited from the British. Those we inherited from the British are non-written. Disclosure is one of those unwritten principles.

Baker, although dealing with immigration, very well illustrates the need for disclosure and reason, WHENEVER the state makes a decision about you. It is pure and simple administrative law. And Constitutional Principles whenever you deal with "secrecy". And grading you on a final exam, is exactly that. Secrecy. And for reasons which do not trump your constitutional rights. Nevertheless, this is my analysis, and should there be a need, I will address the Ontario courts directly.

I provided Baker as a sample, as I was not provided with a reason for my grade. The department resists providing me with a reason for my grade, citing the fact that there are no reasons to be provided to me for my grade.  They refuse disclosing who was the TA who graded me. 

I have received a "no you are  not allowed" notice. I am going to address that notice and all of the refusals, but I needed to know what the custom is  If that makes any sense ....

Thank you all for your explanation, I will address the non-conforming department, and should you wish, I will update on whether they are willing to give me a copy, or go to court over it.

If you do not want to be updated, no need to worry, just let me know.

Thanks,

Dana

[bearded frog]

You don't have a correct interpretation of the law, but its clear that none of us are going to convince you otherwise. I sincerely wish that you keep us updated, and let us know how your court challenge goes, and please link us to the citation when it is available.

[dana_2]

 

5 hours ago, bearded frog said:

You don't have a correct interpretation of the law, but its clear that none of us are going to convince you otherwise. I sincerely wish that you keep us updated, and let us know how your court challenge goes, and please link us to the citation when it is available.

 Sure. Of course I am wrong  

Another way to put it, so you would understand. More or less, let's imagine a criminal law trial and a judge rendering a verdict: "You are guilty, you get life in prison! But, I will not offer any reasons cuz it will infringe my copyright in said reasons, and please appeal, but you will not be able to have a copy of the decision, or of any of the evidence, since it will reveal test methods which we employ to uncover criminals. So appeal in the blind." 

Plain and simple, ridiculous  

If you think the above is too far fetched, it is not. The TA is basically telling me I cannot attend med school through that grade. Obviously I want to know WHY, I want to be provided with reasons, and I want a reasonable basis on which to appeal the grade. 

P.S. And since all of these had to bear a name, they are collectively called "procedural fairness".

 

[indefatigable]

A university is not considered to be part of the state, so the case is tangential.  In a more general sense, as long as the department or university demonstrates that there was in theory some way to view the exam, then they've satisfied any kind of accessibility requirement.  And as far as suing the university - universities employ large law firms, so I wouldn't recommend that.   

[dana_2]

"A university is not considered to be part of the state, so the case is tangential." ---- They have acts governing them - i.e. University of Toronto Act 1971, they can expropriate people of their property, so they are the state  After all, they are called "provincial universities" for a reason. They are not private (and even if, then you would be able to use PIPEDA).

" universities employ large law firms" - sure, please bring Borden Ladner Gervais, or whomever , I mean it is their right  

[indefatigable]

You're very determined, but I'd honestly just suggest following the procedures outline at UofT regarding appeals.  Generally they'll be something like:

a) look for informal resolution (i.e. view exam & talk to prof)

b ) departmental resolution (highly likely to uphold a) )

c) university resolution - here's where if it has to go will be your best shot.  Intra-university, lots of actors... but bottom line overruling a tenured prof isn't likely to happen.  And it will take a lot of time.

In my opinion, the argument in front of a judge won't go that far, since university will be considered a "privilege" rather than "right".  And publicly funded doesn't mean their an agent of the state - no "Government of Canada" or Ontario attached to the university.

 

 

[dana_2]

Of course I am trying a ) and b ) . And of course I will also try c ), however within reason. I am not prepared to appeal something I was not provided reasons for, and to which I do not have access.  

For now, I am not getting very far with a ) and b ) , and for you to get an understanding - I am not even supplied with the name of whomever graded me. I guess that is a state secret. I have no clue if who graded me is a tenure prof or a prof or a TA, I am kept in the dark ... 

 

[indefatigable]

For something like a final exam, the responsible prof is especially accountable.  So if it wasn't graded by the prof, this will definitely help in c).  But even still, it usually won't matter - there has to be overwhelming egregious lack of procedure and other faults followed to get a change usually.  A lot med schools do have weighting, so one grade shouldn't ruin your chances. It's really worth checking if there was some way to view the exam at some point - this will likely be how accessibility was shown.  

 

[lulu95]

The problem with winter semester final exams is that grades often come out after students have already gone home, but if you're in the same city, you can always find your prof in their office, where exams will also likely be kept. With the exception of one comp sci course, our exams have never been allowed to be copied, but most profs have allowed us to contest grades either by writing down the questions that haven't been resolved with the TA during exam review, or request a re-grade of the exam.

If you haven't had much luck with getting a) or of what calcan said, I'd suggest rethinking the way you're approaching them. I don't know if you use the same attitude in speaking with those responsible for your grades as you're speaking here, but people are generally more receptive to requests and to helping you resolve a problem if you don't start the conversation in such an argumentative manner and so ready to threaten escalation of the issue. 

[dana_2]

1 hour ago, calcan said:

For something like a final exam, the responsible prof is especially accountable.  So if it wasn't graded by the prof, this will definitely help in c).  But even still, it usually won't matter - there has to be overwhelming egregious lack of procedure and other faults followed to get a change usually.  A lot med schools do have weighting, so one grade shouldn't ruin your chances. It's really worth checking if there was some way to view the exam at some point - this will likely be how accessibility was shown.  

 

That is the problem, I do not know who graded me ... 

[dana_2]

39 minutes ago, lulu95 said:

... but most profs have allowed us to contest grades either by writing down the questions that haven't been resolved with the TA during exam review, or request a re-grade of the exam ...

Would you mind explaining me what you mean by that in greater details  

As for me:

There was no exam review, I am not provided with any reasons, nor do I know who graded me.  I am allowed 30 mins to examine my paper ... alone ... and I was told that the exam contains no remarks ...

Of course I did not threaten escalation, I am not in the business of suing anybody, but at this point, I have a grade (lousy that is, as compared with my other grades), and I have zero information about it. I am virtually at the end of the rope. I have tried every avenue to solve this the amiable way. What else do you suggest I should do? 

I cannot possibly appeal something I have zero information about ... To be honest, this is ridiculous.

[lulu95]

1 hour ago, dana_2 said:

Would you mind explaining me what you mean by that in greater details  

As for me:

There was no exam review, I am not provided with any reasons, nor do I know who graded me.  I am allowed 30 mins to examine my paper ... alone ... and I was told that the exam contains no remarks ...

Of course I did not threaten escalation, I am not in the business of suing anybody, but at this point, I have a grade (lousy that is, as compared with my other grades), and I have zero information about it. I am virtually at the end of the rope. I have tried every avenue to solve this the amiable way. What else do you suggest I should do? 

I cannot possibly appeal something I have zero information about ... To be honest, this is ridiculous.

I'm not quite clear on what you mean by you are allowed 30 minutes to examine your paper alone? Usually, there's at least one person to supervise you during that time, either to answer questions (to put it nicely) or to make sure that you don't copy down the exam. Also, I'm not sure that we have the same definition of "exam review". There's very rarely a guided review of a final exam where they go over the questions, that sort of exam review is only sometimes offered for midterms so you can have a better idea of where you stand in the course and correct any misunderstandings of the course material. An exam review for a final is mostly for you to look over the exam and see if there's anything you disagreed with or feel was unfair. It sounds like that is being offered to you, with your 30 minutes of examining your paper. From there, you can note down the specifics of your challenges, the points that you feel haven't been fairly graded. You don't need a photocopy of the exam because the original will be kept on file and available to be verified if anything is contested, only something to jot down your issues with the exam grading as you look over it so that you don't forget later on when you speak with your prof.

Have you seen your exam yet? Most of the appeal process would take place AFTER you've spent your 30 minutes with the exam (which is on the short side, but not too bad)

[dana_2]

1 minute ago, lulu95 said:

I'm not quite clear on what you mean by you are allowed 30 minutes to examine your paper alone? Usually, there's at least one person to supervise you during that time, either to answer questions (to put it nicely) or to make sure that you don't copy down the exam. Also, I'm not sure that we have the same definition of "exam review". There's very rarely a guided review of a final exam where they go over the questions, that sort of exam review is only sometimes offered for midterms so you can have a better idea of where you stand in the course and correct any misunderstandings of the course material. An exam review for a final is mostly for you to look over the exam and see if there's anything you disagreed with or feel was unfair. It sounds like that is being offered to you, with your 30 minutes of examining your paper. From there, you can note down the specifics of your challenges, the points that you feel haven't been fairly graded. You don't need a photocopy of the exam because the original will be kept on file and available to be verified if anything is contested, only something to jot down your issues with the exam grading as you look over it so that you don't forget later on when you speak with your prof.

Have you seen your exam yet? Most of the appeal process would take place AFTER you've spent your 30 minutes with the exam (which is on the short side, but not too bad)

By that I mean 30 minutes alone with my exam, with a person supervising me not to copy   The person is not there to answer any questions. 30 minutes is actually on the impossible side, since I have almost 20 pages that I wrote in 2 hours. 

Bad thing about an appeal is that I can be graded even lower. 

I am not going to take my chances on a weird appeal, should it get to that. I will make either a Request for Information or apply with the Ontario courts for a mandamus order.

[lulu95]

Have you talked to your prof in person? I've yet to have a prof that refused to give any remarks regarding an exam, even if it's just to give you the rubric. Feel free to escalate it to the courts if you want, but a bad mark in one course honestly isn't that bad in the long run, and regardless of the court outcome, that's not going to change your mark for the better any more than the appeal process.

[dana_2]

13 minutes ago, lulu95 said:

Have you talked to your prof in person? I've yet to have a prof that refused to give any remarks regarding an exam, even if it's just to give you the rubric. 

Perhaps I am special then  I received no explanation and no rubric. I do not even know who graded me   The prof does not answer emails  What am I to do, send registered letters?

And I had to go through an entire process to even receive my grade (!!!), if you can believe that ... Perhaps other people are better than me, but now I am not the calmest person in the world.

Do not worry about the court challenge. If I win, THEN I will appeal my grade. Of course, certain things in university policies would then, have to be changed ...

[Altemoc]

3 hours ago, dana_2 said:

Perhaps I am special then  I received no explanation and no rubric. I do not even know who graded me   The prof does not answer emails  What am I to do, send registered letters?

 

I'm confused as to why you keep coming back to the fact that you don't know who graded you. It isn't a relevant fact in the matter. the buck stops with the professor, so s/he will be the one who can answer questions or will be responsible in the case of an appeal. 

 

I don't quite understand your point in any case. what makes you think that you are entitled to an explanation regarding your grade, or being able to copy your exam, and why are these relevant?

 

the facts of the case are:

• you have received a final exam grade you are unhappy with
• you went through a disclosure process to learn of the grade of the final exam (I don't understand this, because using the previous evaluations and the course rubric information on marking you should be able to deduce the final exam grade)
• you have the opportunity to review the exam, but feel it is insufficient
• you don't want to appeal in case a remarking of your exam lowers your grade

it seems to me that you are trying to reap the benefits of a regrade without exposing yourself to any risk and feel entitled to this opportunity, however I can't possibly see why that should be the case. As lulu has noted you haven't even been in to see it yet after which time you would likely be able to address questions to the professor, which would likely end up clearing up some of your questions.

[dana_2]

" I am confused as to why you keep coming back to the fact that you don't know who graded you. It isn't a relevant fact in the matter."

I disagree. As a matter of fact it is important and very relevant to the matter.

If it was the professor who graded me, it would be pointless to appeal to the same professor for a regrade, no? On top of a basic principle of administrative law - judicial review will or will not be granted based on the experience of the person who rendered a particular decision.

 

2 hours ago, smaz said:

you have received a final exam grade you are unhappy with

Incorrect. I may or may not be unhappy, based on the reasons  as to why I was graded in a particular way.

 

2 hours ago, smaz said:

you went through a disclosure process to learn of the grade of the final exam (I don't understand this, because using the previous evaluations and the course rubric information on marking you should be able to deduce the final exam grade)

Simple. I received letter grades throughout the term (i.e. A+, A)  but the final average was a percentage (i.e. 82 percent). I was able to compute a range for the final exam, not the actual grade.

 

2 hours ago, smaz said:

you have the opportunity to review the exam, but feel it is insufficient

Of course I will review my exam. It will only be available after tomorrow (June 7).

 

2 hours ago, smaz said:

you don't want to appeal in case a remarking of your exam lowers your grade

I am afraid you got it all wrong. Actually, I do not want to appeal without being properly informed. As a matter of fact, whenever one appeals, the grade may or may not be lowered - I do not think this can be tampered with.

 

3 hours ago, smaz said:

it seems to me that you are trying to reap the benefits of a regrade without exposing yourself to any risk and feel entitled to this opportunity, however I can't possibly see why that should be the case.

Sorry, I lost you here completely. I am not even sure how I can achieve that - reap the benefits without exposing myself to any risk  

For the rest, I think I already explained everything pretty clearly (why do I feel entitled to certain information). I have attempted to contact the professor, he did not reply to my 4 emails to date. I am not sure how to proceed further.

Thank you for your opinion

Dana.