Job opportunities in ENT and urology

[DeeplySuperficial]

Hello everyone.

I am a first year Ontario med student who is really interested in ENT and Urology and am considering the two fields. However, I keep hearing that job prospects are horrible and that many residents don' find jobs after graduating. Just out of curiosity what do residents who don't find jobs do?  

[GrouchoMarx]

Fellowships until jobs open up, move to the USA, or practice in isolated domestic centers. None are ideal situations.

ENT and urology have little in common besides being 1. surgical and 2. high earning. You'd best figure out which one you want to do and then stick to it, assuming you end up wanting to do surgery at all.

[DeeplySuperficial]

Thank you GrouchoMarx. Really appreciate your response. I do have some additional questions...

Between the two do you know if one of them is more locum friendly than the other? Also are the job prospects for one better than the other?

Finally, since both are fairly competitive, if I were to choose one, is it possible to back it up with something safe like FM, Pediatrics or Internal Medicine?

Thanks.  

[freewheeler]

You're in first year.

Spend time reflecting on what you want your life and practice to eventually look like (ex. call or no call, # of years of training, location, medicine or surgery, patient population, inpatient or outpatient, etc.).

Be honest with yourself about what draws you to both of those specialties. Arrange shadowing opportunities in those areas and ask questions about the work/life balance and job situation to current residents, fellows and staff. Look up job postings online for additional perspective.

There is a large push by medical school administrators to have students "parallel plan" aka backup, and they often require students to take electives in at least 2 disciplines. Depending on how many elective weeks you have you would split them up accordingly. Applying to 2-3 disciplines come CaRMS time is not unusual, though I am not sure if going for a competitive surgical specialty changes that to going all in on that one specialty with a single, token elective in whatever else or if you try to parallel plan for a second discipline.

FM is probably somewhat safe in terms of # of spots available, but make sure you write a convincing personal statement that paints a narrative of how you have come around to family medicine, are genuinely interested in it and would be satisfied in it.

I don't think pediatrics is necessarily safe, there aren't THAT many spots in it. Also know that a lot of people in peds are...well you can find out for yourself.

Internal medicine is probably more 'safe' than peds based on spots, but once again you need to write a convincing personal statement that demonstrates how you came around to internal, etc.

When choosing a specialty to backup with, really think about the pros and cons between them and what you like least about each one. Spend some time exploring each of those through shadowing as well, ask questions of staff and residents.

I don't think there are many people aside from 1-2 on this board who could answer your locuming question with any personal insight. You can probably always find work in Canada's north or other undesirable locations if you're really interested. Otherwise get on the fellowship conveyor belt or test the waters in the US.

[Bambi]

On 11/14/2018 at 7:02 PM, DeeplySuperficial said:

Hello everyone.

I am a first year Ontario med student who is really interested in ENT and Urology and am considering the two fields. However, I keep hearing that job prospects are horrible and that many residents don' find jobs after graduating. Just out of curiosity what do residents who don't find jobs do?  

Fellowship!

[DeeplySuperficial]

Thank you freewheeler and Bambi for your response. Really appreciate it!!

[#YOLO]

Fellowship  + end up working in some shitty town out east

[NLengr]

2 hours ago, #YOLO said:

Fellowship  + end up working in some shitty town out east

This for pretty much any surgical specialty (except the really bad ones like Ortho, Cardiac, neurosurg etc). 

Fellowship and then scrounge to find whatever is avaliable. If you are lucky something is open in a place you want to work. If you aren't, you take a job that's usually open for a reason (crappy location, crappy coworkers, crappy lifestyle etc.).

[GrouchoMarx]

21 hours ago, NLengr said:

This for pretty much any surgical specialty (except the really bad ones like Ortho, Cardiac, neurosurg etc). 

Fellowship and then scrounge to find whatever is avaliable. If you are lucky something is open in a place you want to work. If you aren't, you take a job that's usually open for a reason (crappy location, crappy coworkers, crappy lifestyle etc.).

pathology is the exact same

[WeDayDream]

How is the job market like for urology in canada? 

[IMislove]

15 minutes ago, WeDayDream said:

How is the job market like for urology in canada? 

 

http://www.royalcollege.ca/rcsite/documents/health-policy/employment-report-2013-e.pdf

This may help you to get an idea. As surgical, definitely not great.

[NLengr]

5 hours ago, WeDayDream said:

How is the job market like for urology in canada? 

Shit. Not utter shit like cardiac, neurosurg and ortho. But shit. 

[Edict]

On 6/27/2019 at 6:04 PM, NLengr said:

Shit. Not utter shit like cardiac, neurosurg and ortho. But shit. 

Actually the job market is opening up in some of these small specialties at this very moment. NLengr is right though, as a general rule, the job market is shit and it isn't ever going to get better.

It is sheer luck that sometimes the job market opens up, but even then these places are picky. They want someone who the exact fellowship they are looking for, the right "fit" and many places are happy holding down the fort for a few years until they find the "right" person. In fact, many places (primarily academic centers) recruit internationally, and there is never a shortage of surgeons internationally who are better than you who would be happy to take a Canadian salary. So all in all, you will have job openings that don't fill while there are grads out there jobless. The important thing to remember about surgical specialties is that you are buying into a lifestyle not a job. You will work twice as hard for half the reward of any of your other friends, all so you can operate. If that sounds like a sweet deal for you, then do it. Otherwise, save yourself. 

The job market in the US is generally speaking very good for surgeons however. If you are open to the idea of moving to the states, surgery is not an absolutely miserable choice.

I would almost go ahead and argue that if you are not willing to relocate, do not do surgery ever. The number of surgeons who get away with never having to live in a place they would rather not live in for at least a few years of their career is probably in the single digits. 

Also, anyone who thinks surgeons make a lot of money is lost. Surgeons absolutely do not make more money they almost always make less. Most physicians are able to make the same or more as surgeons if they work the same hours. Factor in the extra training and less flexibility in hours etc., surgeons definitely come out worse.