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On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 3:16 PM, Edict said:

What I will also say is, i don't necessarily agree with what older says, European medical schools are not all the same, and as a whole they are not too difficult to get into. The UK medical school you got into is a private school started within the last few years, and RCSI while being competitive, isn't the same level of competitiveness as a Canadian or American medical school

If you are willing to go to the US in a lower tier program/less desirable city and in a primary care specialty or you are willing to choose UCLan and stay in the UK and you genuinely fear not getting into Canadian medical school and would not want to end up in an allied health profession or in research and you have the funds, it is worth considering. Keep in mind what you are sacrificing. You are sacrificing not only the 500k, but you are also locking yourself into not just a profession but also to your location for the rest of your teens and twenties. This is a much more serious decision most 18 y/o's are tasked with making, so think carefully and do not let others around you try to push you in any one direction.   

 

Really? UCLan is a school started within last two years? FYI, University of Central Lancashire was founded in 1828 . Their MBBS programme may be newer, but builds on UCLan  long existing programmes in dentistry, pharmacy, science etc.  Regardless, all schools in UK  are subject to the General Medical Council quality assurance processes. There is little difference in quality of medical education between schools.

For EU locals, medicine is as competitive as in US schools (but not like in Canada, because here it is truly insane)  It is true, though, that international paying students have a certain percentage of places allocated and that stream may be less competitive - I have no idea.  Same goes on in Canada. Ever met international students and residents from other countries? Saudi Arabia perhaps?  Maybe it was easier for them to get in , but are they any lesser doctors than Canadians? 

Anyway, I agree with most of the posters that studying abroad is risky and may not pay off. It's just that this contemptuous attitude on this forum to medical schools abroad is mostly based on ignorance. And, contrary to what you say, there are many graduates of foreign schools in top hospitals and top research posts in Canada.   

You want an example? Here is just one. NOT as example why you should study abroad, but why you should not feel superior to IMGs.

http://womensandinfantshealth.ca/2013/06/ryan-greg/

 

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5 minutes ago, older said:

  You want an example? Here is just one. NOT as example why you should study abroad, but why you should not feel superior to IMGs.

http://womensandinfantshealth.ca/2013/06/ryan-greg/

There is a difference between when someone is a true IMG (immigrated to Canada) compared to Canadians who go abroad to try and cheat the system, aka CSAs. How is an example of someone who is Irish, who went to an Irish medical school, and now practices in Canada, supposed to prove that CSAs worked equally as hard to get into medical school?

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17 minutes ago, xiphoid said:

There is a difference between when someone is a true IMG (immigrated to Canada) compared to Canadians who go abroad to try and cheat the system, aka CSAs. How is an example of someone who is Irish, who went to an Irish medical school, and now practices in Canada, supposed to prove that CSAs worked equally as hard to get into medical school?

 

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There are two different issues here: first, the quality of education abroad, which was scoffed upon by giving example of UK's UCLan..  Along this line of argument, it does not matter whether IMG was born outside of Canada or is a CSA. Hence the example.

The other issue, which seems to be highly emotional for you, is "cheating the system" by studying abroad.   CSAs may not work as hard, as you put it,  to get to med school, but I bet they work as hard to become a well educated doctors, which ultimately is what matters the most. They still have to jump all the hoops. About "cheating"? For some, manipulating GPA (which is the deciding factor in getting into Canadian med schools) is cheating. Non-Canadians are shaking their heads reading this forum and advice how to manipulate GPA by a fraction to get into just that one medical school because you are not good enough for another. This is normal here, but it is insane. And other tricks! How is moving to another province to get easier admission any better than moving abroad?

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37 minutes ago, xiphoid said:

There is a difference between when someone is a true IMG (immigrated to Canada) compared to Canadians who go abroad to try and cheat the system, aka CSAs. How is an example of someone who is Irish, who went to an Irish medical school, and now practices in Canada, supposed to prove that CSAs worked equally as hard to get into medical school?

ha that is a bit caustic. I mean not that I am always super excited about how schools are aggressively recruiting people for overseas programs and some of the bait and switching that is going on. 

Still no one here is breaking any rules - so I would not call it cheating, more like being able to take advantage of a particular pathway that others may not be able to. Certainly not a safe route at all for that matter - high risk. 

Degree of working hard pulls into fairness - I suppose purely for hiring people point of view you don't care directly if an IMG worked harder than a CSA - but rather which one is better skill wise etc for the slotted non CMG positions. 

 

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52 minutes ago, xiphoid said:

There is a difference between when someone is a true IMG (immigrated to Canada) compared to Canadians who go abroad to try and cheat the system, aka CSAs. How is an example of someone who is Irish, who went to an Irish medical school, and now practices in Canada, supposed to prove that CSAs worked equally as hard to get into medical school?

There is no "cheating the system" going on. Everyone has to put in the work to become a practicing doctor, whether it's mostly upfront to get into medical school (CMGs), or later to match into residency (CSAs). No one gets away from paying the piper.

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22 hours ago, Intrepid86 said:

There is no "cheating the system" going on. Everyone has to put in the work to become a practicing doctor, whether it's mostly upfront to get into medical school (CMGs), or later to match into residency (CSAs). No one gets away from paying the piper.

I really think these kinds of generalizations are unfair and not accurate.  I would never stereotype Canadian-born IMGs as wealthy and entitled but it's easy to see that some may live in a different financial reality than many CMGs (from Atlantic Bridge testimonials link): 

"For anyone who was in the same situation as me, I would definitely recommend studying abroad in Ireland.  Ireland definitely has a unique charm and culture, and anyone who studies there will definitely grow from the life experiences that those staying home will just simply never get. Where else can you spend your week studying medicine and your weekends touring La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona, carving up some serious powder on one of the many slopes of Oslo, or experiencing the culture of Paris? Certainly not in Canada or the United States!"

Personally, by your measure, I would say I've already paid the piper several times over, partly in an other language, without any trips to Paris:(.

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7 hours ago, tere said:

I really think these kinds of generalizations are unfair and not accurate.  I would never stereotype Canadian-born IMGs as wealthy and entitled but it's easy to see that some may live in a different financial reality than many CMGs (from Atlantic Bridge testimonials link): 

"For anyone who was in the same situation as me, I would definitely recommend studying abroad in Ireland.  Ireland definitely has a unique charm and culture, and anyone who studies there will definitely grow from the life experiences that those staying home will just simply never get. Where else can you spend your week studying medicine and your weekends touring La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona, carving up some serious powder on one of the many slopes of Oslo, or experiencing the culture of Paris? Certainly not in Canada or the United States!"

I was in a rush so perhaps could have used a better phrase, but I meant cheating the system as in trying to circumvent the policies and system design put in place so that we don't end up with a surplus of medical graduates with not enough residency spots. There is a reason that the number of medical school spots in the country is limited, and I personally think trying to get around this system design and then complaining about not being able to easily get back (see thread about the two IMGs from BC suing over not being allowed to apply for the CMG stream) is playing dirty.

Also, wow, that testimonial... I have no words... Even if I studied abroad in Ireland, I certainly would not have the financial resources to go on all these weekend getaways... I can't even afford to go back home all that often to visit my family, let alone spend money on transportation, accommodation, food and entertainment.

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9 hours ago, Intrepid86 said:

There is no "cheating the system" going on. Everyone has to put in the work to become a practicing doctor, whether it's mostly upfront to get into medical school (CMGs), or later to match into residency (CSAs). No one gets away from paying the piper.

Few have the financial opportunity to pursue the CSA pathway - it is essentially a second chance option available only to the wealthy, so it does feel like cheating to those who do not have this option on the table and have to "make it" the first time.

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On 4/13/2019 at 5:23 AM, xiphoid said:

Also, wow, that testimonial... I have no words... Even if I studied abroad in Ireland, I certainly would not have the financial resources to go on all these weekend getaways... I can't even afford to go back home all that often to visit my family, let alone spend money on transportation, accommodation, food and entertainment.

If you studied abroad, you would quickly discover that you can see those places on a shoestring. It Is quite common to get flights on cheap airlines for 5 or 10 pounds. Hostels abound. Besides, not all CSAs are rich kids. Many take loans, just like us.

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On 4/13/2019 at 5:23 AM, xiphoid said:

I was in a rush so perhaps could have used a better phrase, but I meant cheating the system as in trying to circumvent the policies and system design put in place so that we don't end up with a surplus of medical graduates with not enough residency spots. There is a reason that the number of medical school spots in the country is limited, and I personally think trying to get around this system design and then complaining about not being able to easily get back (see thread about the two IMGs from BC suing over not being allowed to apply for the CMG stream) is playing dirty.

Who says easily? It’s very difficult, which is the point of the advice given to OP. Residency spots are limited to CSAs for reasons you mention. What’s dirty here?

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On 4/12/2019 at 1:04 PM, older said:

Really? UCLan is a school started within last two years? FYI, University of Central Lancashire was founded in 1828 . Their MBBS programme may be newer, but builds on UCLan  long existing programmes in dentistry, pharmacy, science etc.  Regardless, all schools in UK  are subject to the General Medical Council quality assurance processes. There is little difference in quality of medical education between schools.

For EU locals, medicine is as competitive as in US schools (but not like in Canada, because here it is truly insane)  It is true, though, that international paying students have a certain percentage of places allocated and that stream may be less competitive - I have no idea.  Same goes on in Canada. Ever met international students and residents from other countries? Saudi Arabia perhaps?  Maybe it was easier for them to get in , but are they any lesser doctors than Canadians? 

Anyway, I agree with most of the posters that studying abroad is risky and may not pay off. It's just that this contemptuous attitude on this forum to medical schools abroad is mostly based on ignorance. And, contrary to what you say, there are many graduates of foreign schools in top hospitals and top research posts in Canada.   

You want an example? Here is just one. NOT as example why you should study abroad, but why you should not feel superior to IMGs.

http://womensandinfantshealth.ca/2013/06/ryan-greg/

 

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2504338 

UCLan as a university is a former poly founded in 1992. What was founded in 1828 was "The Institution For The Diffusion Of Useful Knowledge". A medical school that was founded in 2014 that is catered towards international students (where the quota is for UK students instead of the other way around) is no Oxbridge thats for sure....

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4 hours ago, older said:

If you studied abroad, you would quickly discover that you can see those places on a shoestring. It Is quite common to get flights on cheap airlines for 5 or 10 pounds. Hostels abound. Besides, not all CSAs are rich kids. Many take loans, just like us.

5 to 10 pounds on food or rent will always come first over 5 to 10 pounds on flights. If you're taking frequent weekend getaways as the testimonial mentions, that quickly adds up. Sure, one weekend getaway over your 4-6 years is nothing, but that's not the picture painted in the testimonial. If you're studying abroad and these "shoestring" costs are no issue to you, then you my friend, are in a better financial situation than most.

Loans for CSAs usually require cosigning unlike CMGs, and parents being able to cosign on a $300k loan is in itself an indication that they are not doing too badly financially in the absolute sense (doesn't take into account if a family has 7 kids for example, but is still generally a good ballpark). I don't see the purpose in continuing down this path anymore, because nothing you ever say will be able to convince me that CSAs are not a bunch of kids from wealthy families who get an opportunity to pursue medicine that us non-wealthy folk will never have if we cannot get in on our own merit here in Canada.

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If the IMG path wasn't easier than doing things the "proper" way, why would people even bother? The simple fact that people are going down that path suggests one of two things in my opinion: either it is easier, or the people who apply to that stream lack judgement if they prefer applying to a more difficult stream. 

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1 hour ago, Snowmen said:

If the IMG path wasn't easier than doing things the "proper" way, why would people even bother? The simple fact that people are going down that path suggests one of two things in my opinion: either it is easier, or the people who apply to that stream lack judgement if they prefer applying to a more difficult stream. 

There is a 3rd and more likely reason for many CSAs. They did not have the GPA & MCAT credentials needed at the end of undergrad, or maybe tried once and received no interviews.  With no way to proceed inside Canada without further undergrad work, they look at alternatives if they have the economic means to do so.   So while it may be "easier" to be admitted at that point in time compared to no chance at a Canadian school,  4 years later at point of residency, it is much much harder.  CSA's either ignore the risk or believe they will be one of the statistically successful candidates. 

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