Unmathched Human Rights Complaint

[Angry+Bitter+Unmatched]

If you are Unmatched and as angry as I am please discuss....I'm interested in spearheading this.  

[Angry+Bitter+Unmatched]

And...before you mention law students, keep in mind the Ontario Law society is wayyyy ahead of medicine on this one.  A general licence program would be a great place to start....

https://www.oba.org/Law-Practice-Program/Recent-News/Alternative-path-to-licensing-lawyers-in-Ontario?image=3D10979101955

[rmorelan]

In no way I am I trying to diminish your frustration with the system (seriously), but I am not immediately seeing the line to a human right's complaint. You wouldn't have brought it up if you didn't think there was a case - what would you be basing it on? 

 

[TheBoss]

I may not be in this boat, but I support the notion for a general license. As it stands, an MD is nearly worthless without a residency, and the current climate has made it excessively tight.

[2018hopeful]

I'm in. It seems the only thing that gets through to our government is making too much noise for them to ignore. Do you have a protonmail or secure email service?

[goleafsgochris]

I have agreed for a while that unmatched students should be able to do family/a general licence at their home school.  Not surprisingly family would not be impressed with this idea.  That being said, what is the logic behind a human rights complaint?  I'm not a lawyer so I'm not sure I get it, but would be interesting to hear

[Angry+Bitter+Unmatched]

2 hours ago, goleafsgochris said:

I have agreed for a while that unmatched students should be able to do family/a general licence at their home school.  Not surprisingly family would not be impressed with this idea.  That being said, what is the logic behind a human rights complaint?  I'm not a lawyer so I'm not sure I get it, but would be interesting to hear

 

16 hours ago, rmorelan said:

In no way I am I trying to diminish your frustration with the system (seriously), but I am not immediately seeing the line to a human right's complaint. You wouldn't have brought it up if you didn't think there was a case - what would you be basing it on? 

 

Take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, as I'm not a lawyer.  That being said, my rationale is that under section 6 (2b) of the charter of rights, Canadians have the right to make a living: 

• 6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.

• Marginal note:Rights to move and gain livelihood

  (2) Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right

  • (a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and

  • (b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province. 

Source: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-15.html

I personally think there is a reasonable argument that by being denied residency positions by the provincial governments, they are in fact inpuning our ability to pursue our livelihood....that is my thinking.  It doesn't cost a dime to file a HRC, and I've got lots of time on my hands.  I do understand that they could say: "fine,  just go work at Burger King to make your livelihood"....but in the very least it would continue to attract attention to this problem, especially with the looming provincial election in Ontario this summer.  I'm curious as to what others think about this positive or negative.

[la marzocco]

A charter challenge may be tough on this one. One may need to demonstrate that the ability to secure employment (any employment at all) is markedly reduced. The burden here is to demonstrate a reasonable connection. In this case, although residency is part and parcel to the overall training of a physician, it may only demonstrate the result as being underemployment in the scenario where the medical graduate cannot secure residency. That is, you're gaining livelihood in a capacity that is not utilizing your full potential. 

An example that comes to mind is the ongoing lawsuit between the fellow at Western who completed his residency and fellowship in medical microbiology but could not pass his Royal College exams. Regardless of the causes, he is effectively "prevented" from being able to practise as a physician. He now works as a clinical microbiologist, gaining livelihood in a capacity that is not utilizing his full potential. 

I am trying to draw parallels because the charter only protects the ability to earn a livelihood, but not a guard against underemployment. 

[Angry+Bitter+Unmatched]

To be honest, If were simply underemployed I wouldn't be on this forum....I'd be at work.  I can't even get a job at the grocery store, picking vegetables, or stocking shelves at the LCBO.  Likewise I have applied for multiple research positions at my local university with no success.  It is very, very difficult to get any type of work outside of medicine with an MD, at least in my personal experience.

[insomnias]

20 minutes ago, Angry+Bitter+Unmatched said:

To be honest, If were simply underemployed I wouldn't be on this forum....I'd be at work.  I can't even get a job at the grocery store, picking vegetables, or stocking shelves at the LCBO.  Likewise I have applied for multiple research positions at my local university with no success.  It is very, very difficult to get any type of work outside of medicine with an MD, at least in my personal experience.

I hesitate to suggest this: have you considered removing the MD from your application and finding some excuse for the 4-year gap in your resume (e.g. taking care of an ill family member, living abroad,...)?

[DermDermDermDerm]

Have you applied in the United States?

[goleafsgochris]

So I spent some time thinking about this today since you posted it.  Came to the conclusion that my recommendation would be to NOT proceed with this.  While it may be good for future applicants as a whole if you went through with it, it would very likely be a net negative for you personally.  In short, there is a risk you will be branded a "trouble maker" (as much as I hate that this is true), and it may actually harm your chances in the future because of this.  Also, I really don't think its likely to work...and even if it did work, by the time it got through the courts and anything changes, years will have passed.  Just playing the odds, you are significantly more likely to get into something before this is successful, and that's even if it is successful.

I would recommend continuing with the second round apps, and possibly broadening you app for the states for next year if you don't get in this year.  While this may be a satisfying "fuck you" to the system, I don't think its in your own self interest.

[JohnGrisham]

2 hours ago, Angry+Bitter+Unmatched said:

To be honest, If were simply underemployed I wouldn't be on this forum....I'd be at work.  I can't even get a job at the grocery store, picking vegetables, or stocking shelves at the LCBO.  Likewise I have applied for multiple research positions at my local university with no success.  It is very, very difficult to get any type of work outside of medicine with an MD, at least in my personal experience.

Okay, i get youre in a tough situation, but that is a bit of hyperbole. You can easily get a minimum wage job somewhere, doing something.  You're well educated and likely have transferable skills. Simply do not put your medical education on your resume, if you think you're being held back. 

[Angry+Bitter+Unmatched]

4 hours ago, goleafsgochris said:

So I spent some time thinking about this today since you posted it.  Came to the conclusion that my recommendation would be to NOT proceed with this.  While it may be good for future applicants as a whole if you went through with it, it would very likely be a net negative for you personally.  In short, there is a risk you will be branded a "trouble maker" (as much as I hate that this is true), and it may actually harm your chances in the future because of this.  Also, I really don't think its likely to work...and even if it did work, by the time it got through the courts and anything changes, years will have passed.  Just playing the odds, you are significantly more likely to get into something before this is successful, and that's even if it is successful.

I would recommend continuing with the second round apps, and possibly broadening you app for the states for next year if you don't get in this year.  While this may be a satisfying "fuck you" to the system, I don't think its in your own self interest.

 

4 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Okay, i get youre in a tough situation, but that is a bit of hyperbole. You can easily get a minimum wage job somewhere, doing something.  You're well educated and likely have transferable skills. Simply do not put your medical education on your resume, if you think you're being held back. 

You two have absolutely no clue, I have three degrees, and I was an excellent resident....If I don't list my history, it looks like I was in prison for 12 years....too much education is almost worse than no education in my experience when it comes to regular service jobs.  I went to the home depot job fair in my town, and actually was personally laughed at, despite the fact I'm 6'1" and 230 lbs, but for some reason I'm not qualified to stock shelves or work the cash.  As far as getting blackballed or being labelled "a troublemaker", I'm not afraid of that at this point, It's clear to me that without a policy change on the provincial level, I'm fucked.  One of the biggest problems with this here is that most medical students are obsequious little wimps, lacking a spine.  

I've come to the conclusion that I have nothing left to lose at this point, win or lose.  I will do this on my own.  When some of you are actually on your own feet, and don't have mummy and daddy to pay your bills; you will indeed see how hard life is, once you're on welfare like me....the bank doesn't care about you, and neither does your home school at the end of the day, don't delude yourselves.  I won't bother responding to this feed anymore, but I'm speaking to a CBC producer this week....perhaps some of you will understand how un-Canadian this whole situation is.  I'm guessing there will be at least 100+ unmatched CMGs after the second round of the match this year....to the tune of about 50 million taxpayer dollars, this is a fucking sin.  Good luck with your search, I hope your path in life is better than mine.  I fully understand why Robert Chu did what he did.

[medicine2018BC]

22 minutes ago, Angry+Bitter+Unmatched said:

You two have absolutely no clue, I have three degrees, and I was an excellent resident....If I don't list my history, it looks like I was in prison for 12 years....too much education is almost worse than no education in my experience when it comes to regular service jobs.  I went to the home depot job fair in my town, and actually was personally laughed at, despite the fact I'm 6'1" and 230 lbs, but for some reason I'm not qualified to stock shelves or work the cash.  As far as getting blackballed or being labelled "a troublemaker", I'm not afraid of that at this point, It's clear to me that without a policy change on the provincial level, I'm fucked.  One of the biggest problems with this here is that most medical students are obsequious little wimps, lacking a spine.  

I've come to the conclusion that I have nothing left to lose at this point, win or lose.  I will do this on my own.  When some of you are actually on your own feet, and don't have mummy and daddy to pay your bills; you will indeed see how hard life is, once you're on welfare like me....the bank doesn't care about you, and neither does your home school at the end of the day, don't delude yourselves.  I won't bother responding to this feed anymore, but I'm speaking to a CBC producer this week....perhaps some of you will understand how un-Canadian this whole situation is.  I'm guessing there will be at least 100+ unmatched CMGs after the second round of the match this year....to the tune of about 50 million taxpayer dollars, this is a fucking sin.  Good luck with your search, I hope your path in life is better than mine.  I fully understand why Robert Chu did what he did

I am so sorry to hear about your terrible experience. I am not trying to argue with you but just trying to be a devil's advocate. You were given a chance at a residency position, but it was you who withdrew (or fired, or whatever, I don't know the details) without having a good contingency plan. Yes, it sucks that you could not obtain a residency position for the last three years but perhaps residency programs saw your decision/circumstance as a red flag and would not like to have a resident who will quit mid way through their program. I don't think this is a human rights violation. 

However I DO AGREE that people need to be given a chance to train to become a physician. Residency is NOT a job, but rather a component of training in order to become a physician. Thus, we NEED to be given the opportunity to train, and programs NEED to take responsibility of the medical students they had picked during medical school admission process. There is no easy solution, but I think it should start with cutting down the medical school spots, and perhaps IMG spots. 

Again, I am so sorry for all those who did not match the first round, and hopefully second round will be better

 

[JohnGrisham]

58 minutes ago, Angry+Bitter+Unmatched said:

 

You two have absolutely no clue, I have three degrees, and I was an excellent resident....If I don't list my history, it looks like I was in prison for 12 years....too much education is almost worse than no education in my experience when it comes to regular service jobs.  I went to the home depot job fair in my town, and actually was personally laughed at, despite the fact I'm 6'1" and 230 lbs, but for some reason I'm not qualified to stock shelves or work the cash.  As far as getting blackballed or being labelled "a troublemaker", I'm not afraid of that at this point, It's clear to me that without a policy change on the provincial level, I'm fucked.  One of the biggest problems with this here is that most medical students are obsequious little wimps, lacking a spine.  

I've come to the conclusion that I have nothing left to lose at this point, win or lose.  I will do this on my own.  When some of you are actually on your own feet, and don't have mummy and daddy to pay your bills; you will indeed see how hard life is, once you're on welfare like me....the bank doesn't care about you, and neither does your home school at the end of the day, don't delude yourselves.  I won't bother responding to this feed anymore, but I'm speaking to a CBC producer this week....perhaps some of you will understand how un-Canadian this whole situation is.  I'm guessing there will be at least 100+ unmatched CMGs after the second round of the match this year....to the tune of about 50 million taxpayer dollars, this is a fucking sin.  Good luck with your search, I hope your path in life is better than mine.  I fully understand why Robert Chu did what he did.

I wish you the best of luck.

[ralk]

9 hours ago, Angry+Bitter+Unmatched said:

 

Take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, as I'm not a lawyer.  That being said, my rationale is that under section 6 (2b) of the charter of rights, Canadians have the right to make a living: 

• 6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.

• Marginal note:Rights to move and gain livelihood

  (2) Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right

  • (a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and

  • (b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province. 

Source: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-15.html

I personally think there is a reasonable argument that by being denied residency positions by the provincial governments, they are in fact inpuning our ability to pursue our livelihood....that is my thinking.  It doesn't cost a dime to file a HRC, and I've got lots of time on my hands.  I do understand that they could say: "fine,  just go work at Burger King to make your livelihood"....but in the very least it would continue to attract attention to this problem, especially with the looming provincial election in Ontario this summer.  I'm curious as to what others think about this positive or negative.

Please talk to a lawyer before proceeding with something like this.

The language here is very specific, and the remainder of this section further clarifies its scope. Namely it says:

6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.

(2) Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right

a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and

to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province.

(3) The rights specified in subsection (2) are subject to

a) any laws or practices of general application in force in a province other than those that discriminate among persons primarily on the basis of province of present or previous residence; and

any laws providing for reasonable residency requirements as a qualification for the receipt of publicly provided social services.

(4) Subsections (2) and (3) do not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration in a province of conditions of individuals in that province who are socially or economically disadvantaged if the rate of employment in that province is below the rate of employment in Canada.

The key word here is "pursue". You have a right to pursue the gaining of livelihood, not to have that livelihood granted. The broader context of the section indicates that this right is in regard to freedom of mobility across provinces. Essentially, subsection 6(2) is merely stating that you cannot be denied employment or the opportunity to apply for employment because of your current or previous province(s) of residence. It is a rather narrow application, and not one that CaRMS or provincial government infringe on in the slightest. I haven't dug deep into the case law on this, but the Wikipedia article links to an older decision which held that Section 6 in general applies only to violations of mobility, and more specifically mobility between provinces, and not to violations of ability to work in general.

For the most part, Charter challenges require demonstration that you, as a victimized party, have been treated worse than others due to factors that are protected against punishment under the Charter. There's no unifying factor for unmatched applicants that would fall under Charter protection unless you can somehow demonstrate that unmatched students are predominantly so because of race, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc (and demonstrate that you are both part of that group and, very likely, that it impacted your match results). I'm not aware of any evidence to support such a case. There is no constitutional guarantee to a job, let alone a specific job. By all means, proceed if you're determined, but I think this challenge is dead on arrival, particularly if you're intending to rely on Section 6. Depending on the specifics of your case there may be a call for legal action through other means, but would likely involve direct suits. All the options I can think of off the top of my head would be long-shots, but they'd at least have some degree of legal backing to make an argument with. Even though you may have plenty of time on your hands, there are almost certainly more fruitful ways to spend that time, for yourself and others, than what you're proposing.

[A-Stark]

9 hours ago, Angry+Bitter+Unmatched said:

Take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, as I'm not a lawyer.  That being said, my rationale is that under section 6 (2b) of the charter of rights, Canadians have the right to make a living: 

• 6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.

• Marginal note:Rights to move and gain livelihood

  (2) Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right

  • (a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and

  • (b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province. 

Source: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-15.html

I personally think there is a reasonable argument that by being denied residency positions by the provincial governments, they are in fact inpuning our ability to pursue our livelihood....that is my thinking.  It doesn't cost a dime to file a HRC, and I've got lots of time on my hands.  I do understand that they could say: "fine,  just go work at Burger King to make your livelihood"....but in the very least it would continue to attract attention to this problem, especially with the looming provincial election in Ontario this summer.  I'm curious as to what others think about this positive or negative.

Unfortunately I don't think this interpretation is at all correct. Section 6 describes mobility rights, insofar as provincial (and federal!) governments may not restrict movement of Canadian citizens and permanent residents across provincial/territorial boundaries. Similarly, there can be no restrictions on a given individual from seeking employment or other resident status in a province (e.g. obtaining a health card). That doesn't mean anything generally about specific obligations on the parts of governments to ensure specific types of employment or training are available for one set of degree holders. And even if such a requirement could be demonstrated, I don't think this would pass the test of requiring that such positions be guaranteed for that set of people under all circumstances. No such standard exists for any other kind of employment and I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for physicians or students going through CaRMS. 

That doesn't mean I agree with how the current system is structured by any means. Your example demonstrates the inherent problem with eliminating general licensure, not only from its consequent limitations on employment and flexibility of training but from grossly weakened generalist practice otherwise. 

[rmorelan]

15 hours ago, Angry+Bitter+Unmatched said:

 

You two have absolutely no clue, I have three degrees, and I was an excellent resident....If I don't list my history, it looks like I was in prison for 12 years....too much education is almost worse than no education in my experience when it comes to regular service jobs.  I went to the home depot job fair in my town, and actually was personally laughed at, despite the fact I'm 6'1" and 230 lbs, but for some reason I'm not qualified to stock shelves or work the cash.  As far as getting blackballed or being labelled "a troublemaker", I'm not afraid of that at this point, It's clear to me that without a policy change on the provincial level, I'm fucked.  One of the biggest problems with this here is that most medical students are obsequious little wimps, lacking a spine.  

I've come to the conclusion that I have nothing left to lose at this point, win or lose.  I will do this on my own.  When some of you are actually on your own feet, and don't have mummy and daddy to pay your bills; you will indeed see how hard life is, once you're on welfare like me....the bank doesn't care about you, and neither does your home school at the end of the day, don't delude yourselves.  I won't bother responding to this feed anymore, but I'm speaking to a CBC producer this week....perhaps some of you will understand how un-Canadian this whole situation is.  I'm guessing there will be at least 100+ unmatched CMGs after the second round of the match this year....to the tune of about 50 million taxpayer dollars, this is a fucking sin.  Good luck with your search, I hope your path in life is better than mine.  I fully understand why Robert Chu did what he did.

If you are going down that route if I may - why not wait the less than 2 weeks until the second around match results come out. I mean if you believe there is going to be 100+ unmatched people then that is your headline right there - you may be the point person and the specific example reflected but having the full weight of the match. That is the point of maximum impact. 

[JohnGrisham]

52 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

If you are going down that route if I may - why not wait the less than 2 weeks until the second around match results come out. I mean if you believe there is going to be 100+ unmatched people then that is your headline right there - you may be the point person and the specific example reflected but having the full wait of the match. That is the point of maximum impact. 

Except OP isn't the same as most people? They apparently left their residency program after 4 years and have failed to secure a new position. I would think that is quite rare, and not apples to apples than someone who simply did not match the first time around(or 2nd). 

[jlkhhylyiluh6]

being matched is not a human right. Have some perspective man, some people dont have access to water, food, shelter, or are held in slavery, tortured, etc. To think that you not getting your dream job is a human rights violation is straight up ignorant and embarrassing.

[rmorelan]

9 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Except OP isn't the same as most people? They apparently left their residency program after 4 years and have failed to secure a new position. I would think that is quite rare, and not apples to apples than someone who simply did not match the first time around(or 2nd). 

I suspect that situation will make it a harder sell. 

The making a lot of noise is to put political pressure on the system and force change. Sometimes that means you have to pick the right spokesperson to do that or you don't have any leverage. Doesn't mean other people aren't deserving or the system shouldn't just be changed because it is flawed - just that is not how public pressure usually works.

[PilotMD]

As none of the posters here are lawyers (I assume), all comments are really based on personal opinion and interpretation of the charters of rights (including yours ABU). I can appreciate your frustration and I don't disagree that the system has serious flaws: you trained many years to be a physician, investing a significant amount of your time and money to do so. Further, you can't practice medicine without residency training. This fact is poorly understood by the general population, including our government. It's a shitty deal when you don't go matched. 

Do I think it's a violation of the charter of rights - my personal opinion: not a chance. Nothing is owed to you (or anyone for that matter) because you have post-secondary education. There are no guarantees in school nor in life. When you were accepted to medical school, there was no contract signed stating that you would be employed as a physician once completed. There was no guarantee that if matched it would be to the specialty of your choice, or in the city of your choice, or as many medical students feel it owed to them, both. The same goes for all students in university investing time and energy into training - there are no guarantees for them either. Law students are not promised a job at the end of law school, nor are engineers, graduate students, teachers, etc. etc. There are many individuals that spends thousands of dollars and invest significant time into pilot training that never find work. Again, is this a violation of their rights - no - it's reality. 

I know this sounds harsh - and it is. But this is the truth - many physicians have it in their minds that they somehow deserve 'better' because they trained longer, sacrificed more, etc. etc. The harsh truth of it is - we are not special. We are not owed anything more than the fellow members of our society that did not go to medical school. Physicians can die young, get divorced, commit criminal acts and yes, be unemployed. We are not immune to these things. Many individuals are working in society outside of their 'area of study.' Physicians can (and do) as well. 

Do I think it's unfair that someone trains so long in medicine and not be employable. Damn right I do (BTW - this can also happen after residency training as well. You think it sucks to finish medical school and not be employable - there are individuals finishing years of residency training with fellowships and graduate degrees that can't find decent work. Again, nothing is owed to you regardless of training/dedication, etc). Do I think its a significant waste of taxpayer money when this happens. Damn right I do. Do I think we need to improve the system for training physicians. Damn right I do. But life is tough and can be unfair - fairness is not guaranteed (nor owed) to any of us.

So you have some big decisions to make - you have done so much work to this point. You have been handed a shitty deal. If you want to practice in medicine, you can apply to the second round or improve your application for next year and go for it. This may require self reflection on the type of physician you want (or can) be. It will take a lot of effort - but there are a lot of success stories on this forum for those that applied to second round/re-applied the following year.  Or you can talk to a lawyer and push this violation of the charter of rights agenda - personally, I think this will amount to a dead end for you (and possibly the final stake in you medical career). Or you pursue other avenues of employment - there are lots of jobs out there waiting for hard working intelligent individuals like yourself. 

Again, just my opinion.

 

PMD

[goleafsgochris]

10 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Except OP isn't the same as most people? They apparently left their residency program after 4 years and have failed to secure a new position. I would think that is quite rare, and not apples to apples than someone who simply did not match the first time around(or 2nd). 

Here is what I would do in OPs (understandably terrible) position.  I would find a remote family med program that has trouble filling its Carms spots.  Like really remote--northern Saskatchewan or some equivalent to that.  Set up a meeting with the program director and go there.  Explain the situation in detail--hated the original program you were in, dropped out, have had trouble matching since, but now are committed to and passionate about family medicine and would be happy to train in a rural setting.  Ask what you can do to maximize your chances of getting into THAT program next year.  Offer to volunteer, do research, shadow, whatever.  I can see a strategy like this potentially drastically increasing the chances for next year.  And hell, you really just need to get into ANY program, and the nightmarish situation resolves itself.

Note that this is more a thought experiment and isn't meant to demean OP, maybe you intend to or have tried this.

[Histolytica]

Maybe you're just too angry+bitter and nobody wants to work with you.  I have no idea who you are so this may or may not be true.  Just because somebody gets in to med school doesn't necessarily mean they are entitled to work with patients.

I hope you're able to find a resolution.