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[askingquestions]

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[Bambi]

I believe it is fair to say that most graduates from French speaking medical schools wish to remain in Quebec and they see no advantage to doing residency outside of Quebec. Assuming their English is adequate, they suffer from no disadvantage whatsoever in applying to English language residency programs.

I think you should apply broadly across Quebec and beyond! There is no telling where lightning will strike, although there is a home school advantage or where you have done electives. 

This past cycle I have mentored CaRMS applicants (although none from Quebec) who applied broadly across Canada and they were selected at schools outside their provinces where they did no electives, they were selected on their merits, including on the basis of interviews, the questions they asked and their personalities. Some followed up with contact after the interviews. 

Consider factors such as where you want to practice, as there is an advantage to do your residency in the city where you wish to end up. You are doing networking in that location and cohorts from years ahead of you will alert you to available spots before they officially come on the radar. At least, that happened with me, so I had a head start in seeking a job.

I don't know what you can specifically do to increase your chances at a school in Ontario unless you are able to contact head of department and arrange for a visit where you also meet residents to show interest and ask meaningful questions - which might increase your profile when they assess applications. 

 

[indefatigable]

On 10/3/2021 at 1:04 PM, askingquestions said:

I've noticed that a huge majority of carms applicants coming from UdeM, ULaval, UdeS end up in one of these 3 schools for residency, and close to 0 end up at schools like UofT or UBC. Is this simply because these graduates are much less likely to apply to english language schools for residency or is it because of other factors that give graduates from french med schools a disadvantage when applying to English language residency programs?

As a med student coming from a french school, what can I do to increase my chances of getting into a residency program at an english med school in Ontario? (Ideally UofT or McMaster) (or do you believe that this is unrealistic and that I should focus on getting into a McGill residency instead)

I'm going to politely disagree with the poster above.  I think there have been significant differences between English and French schools, notably grades but also ECs which have made matching from French-speaking schools into English-speaking schools much more limited.  

Competitive French programs often placed high emphasis on grades attained during both pre-clerkship and clerkship - this has only been completely discontinued recently.  Given that that was the goalpost for a some residencies, and could hurt candidates without stellar grades, that limited the competitiveness of a French applicant with average/below average grades even outside Quebec where "Pass" could easily trump a "C", and maybe a "B" for adcoms.   

Conversely, English-speaking schools often have much more active research/ECs available in their school (partly culturally) that allows applicants to distinguish themselves.  Since French-speaking programs relied on grades to separate applicants, there was no need for French graduates to polish up their CV - nor for schools to provide substantial research opportunities to students.  In essence, the main yardsticks were different - CV/papers vs good grades.  

And there were all sorts of other factors - previously only French-schools had an 8-week cap, French-speaking preceptors can be much more direct vs more polite anglo culture.. etc..  all these things add up and the matching rate to first choice programs from French-speaking schools is sometimes significantly lower (as in the graph below).   

 Sure many QCers do want to stay in QC, often understandably for cultural/language reasons.  This can affect French-speakers too - just like English-speakers - less so in surgical procedural disciplines though.., but many would be open to matching outside of QC in their first choice program but aren't necessarily able to do so because they may not be as "competitive".  

Maybe with some levelling of the play field - universal pass/fail, elective cap.. more French-speaking graduates will be more competitive outside of QC.  The graph of first-choice matching seems to suggest a slight "bump" for QC this year - maybe next year it will be even better (includes McGill which is generally English-speaking).  But in speaking with applicants from both sides of the divide, reviewers even in highly competitive disciplines, these differences can really add up.  

 

 

 

[offmychestplease]

also something to be said for the fact that the average Canadian MD grad from English Canada is 28 VS 23 from the French schools...

[Neurogunner]

12 hours ago, indefatigable said:

I'm going to politely disagree with the poster above.  I think there have been significant differences between English and French schools, notably grades but also ECs which have made matching from French-speaking schools into English-speaking schools much more limited.  

Competitive French programs often placed high emphasis on grades attained during both pre-clerkship and clerkship - this has only been completely discontinued recently.  Given that that was the goalpost for a some residencies, and could hurt candidates without stellar grades, that limited the competitiveness of a French applicant with average/below average grades even outside Quebec where "Pass" could easily trump a "C", and maybe a "B" for adcoms.   

Conversely, English-speaking schools often have much more active research/ECs available in their school (partly culturally) that allows applicants to distinguish themselves.  Since French-speaking programs relied on grades to separate applicants, there was no need for French graduates to polish up their CV - nor for schools to provide substantial research opportunities to students.  In essence, the main yardsticks were different - CV/papers vs good grades.  

And there were all sorts of other factors - previously only French-schools had an 8-week cap, French-speaking preceptors can be much more direct vs more polite anglo culture.. etc..  all these things add up and the matching rate to first choice programs from French-speaking schools is sometimes significantly lower.   

 Sure many QCers do want to stay in QC, often understandably for cultural/language reasons.  This can affect French-speakers too - just like English-speakers - less so in surgical procedural disciplines though.., but many would be open to matching outside of QC in their first choice program but aren't necessarily able to do so because they may not be as "competitive".  

Maybe with some levelling of the play field - universal pass/fail, elective cap.. more French-speaking graduates will be more competitive outside of QC.  The graph seems to suggest a slight "bump" this year - maybe next year it will be even better (includes McGill which is generally English-speaking).  But in speaking with applicants from both sides of the divide, reviewers even in highly competitive disciplines, these differences can really add up.  

 

 

 

Hmm but recently it seems like the Quebec system has become more like the English system (the focus is on ECs and research - at least in my class). Do you think that if an applicant from the French system has these qualities (ecs/research/8 week of electives) they could be competitive broadly across Canada. I’m specifically thinking about neuro/neuro peds and I’m a perfectly bilingual candidate (French from France mother and English from England father ha!). Or is there an inherent bias against French applicants…

[Edict]

52 minutes ago, Neurogunner said:

Hmm but recently it seems like the Quebec system has become more like the English system (the focus is on ECs and research - at least in my class). Do you think that if an applicant from the French system has these qualities (ecs/research/8 week of electives) they could be competitive broadly across Canada. I’m specifically thinking about neuro/neuro peds and I’m a perfectly bilingual candidate (French from France mother and English from England father ha!). Or is there an inherent bias against French applicants…

I don't think there is an inherent bias, just don't think French applicants are as oriented towards going for English medical schools which is why this is not reflected in the statistics. The number of fully bilingual French med students who want to go to English Canada for residency and are willing to do electives and research etc. is probably pretty few. Also, one would imagine that the fully bilingual French med students who have an eye out for English Canada for residency would choose McGill for medical school if they could, further limiting the number that are interested.  

Also, because most QC grads are younger as mentioned above, they really need to be mature and exceptional in order to build a similar resume/CV to match. 

[Neurogunner]

2 hours ago, Edict said:

I don't think there is an inherent bias, just don't think French applicants are as oriented towards going for English medical schools which is why this is not reflected in the statistics. The number of fully bilingual French med students who want to go to English Canada for residency and are willing to do electives and research etc. is probably pretty few. Also, one would imagine that the fully bilingual French med students who have an eye out for English Canada for residency would choose McGill for medical school if they could, further limiting the number that are interested.  

Also, because most QC grads are younger as mentioned above, they really need to be mature and exceptional in order to build a similar resume/CV to match. 

I mean anecdotally a decent amount of true anglophones (who speak French but whose mother-tongue is English) go to French schools because it’s far cheaper than Mcgill (especially if you have to move to MTL because rent is double the rest of the province…).

but anyways thanks for your response!

[askingquestions]

16 hours ago, indefatigable said:

I'm going to politely disagree with the poster above.  I think there have been significant differences between English and French schools, notably grades but also ECs which have made matching from French-speaking schools into English-speaking schools much more limited.  

Competitive French programs often placed high emphasis on grades attained during both pre-clerkship and clerkship - this has only been completely discontinued recently.  Given that that was the goalpost for a some residencies, and could hurt candidates without stellar grades, that limited the competitiveness of a French applicant with average/below average grades even outside Quebec where "Pass" could easily trump a "C", and maybe a "B" for adcoms.   

Conversely, English-speaking schools often have much more active research/ECs available in their school (partly culturally) that allows applicants to distinguish themselves.  Since French-speaking programs relied on grades to separate applicants, there was no need for French graduates to polish up their CV - nor for schools to provide substantial research opportunities to students.  In essence, the main yardsticks were different - CV/papers vs good grades.  

And there were all sorts of other factors - previously only French-schools had an 8-week cap, French-speaking preceptors can be much more direct vs more polite anglo culture.. etc..  all these things add up and the matching rate to first choice programs from French-speaking schools is sometimes significantly lower.   

 Sure many QCers do want to stay in QC, often understandably for cultural/language reasons.  This can affect French-speakers too - just like English-speakers - less so in surgical procedural disciplines though.., but many would be open to matching outside of QC in their first choice program but aren't necessarily able to do so because they may not be as "competitive".  

Maybe with some levelling of the play field - universal pass/fail, elective cap.. more French-speaking graduates will be more competitive outside of QC.  The graph seems to suggest a slight "bump" this year - maybe next year it will be even better (includes McGill which is generally English-speaking).  But in speaking with applicants from both sides of the divide, reviewers even in highly competitive disciplines, these differences can really add up.  

 

 

 

Thanks for the detailed response. So would you say that the play field is starting to be more levelled with these new changes? So, would a 2026 french school graduate have a significantly better shot at getting into an english OOP residency than current french graduates? Also, Would it be a good idea to take a year off to complete a masters?

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the elective cap. 

[indefatigable]

10 hours ago, Neurogunner said:

Hmm but recently it seems like the Quebec system has become more like the English system (the focus is on ECs and research - at least in my class). Do you think that if an applicant from the French system has these qualities (ecs/research/8 week of electives) they could be competitive broadly across Canada. I’m specifically thinking about neuro/neuro peds and I’m a perfectly bilingual candidate (French from France mother and English from England father ha!). Or is there an inherent bias against French applicants…

6 hours ago, askingquestions said:

Thanks for the detailed response. So would you say that the play field is starting to be more levelled with these new changes? So, would a 2026 french school graduate have a significantly better shot at getting into an english OOP residency than current french graduates? Also, Would it be a good idea to take a year off to complete a masters?

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the elective cap. 

I do think that there is a paradigm shift happening within QC as grades are no longer a factor.  

But, the opportunities for being "competitive" (at least in some discipline) are not very evenly distributed.  I know that at the school that I went to there were much fewer research opportunities compared to a school like U/T and McGill which can play a significant role in matching in some disciplines.  Clinical shadowing has also long been encouraged in English-speaking schools, but only even now minimally tolerated in French-speaking schools.  So a "gunner" from a major English-speaking school could probably build up a better cv/network and set themselves up for doing well on electives more easily.  This is on top of maybe coming into medical school with a much more developed CV, etc..

The good news is that the threshold for being "competitive" at a French-speaking school is lower - language does really act as a barrier as it's a much smaller pool.

But, if away electives are eventually allowed again then this does mean making some choices.  

Without any electives outside of QC or in English an application is less likely to be taken seriously - adcoms may be more likely to believe that applicant isn't that interested in leaving Quebec.  Otoh committing only to English electives would potentially weaken applications to French-speaking schools where the language would be a boost.  Depending the discipline that could mean competing against applicants who have done significant "gunning" with shadowing, networking, research..  

Last year only 8 weeks of elective in a single program (like ENT or neuro..) were allowed so electives were "capped".  Prior to that year, only French-speaking schools had that cap whereas some English-speaking graduates could do much more electives in a single discipline.  

Finally, I don't think there's a French "bias" just that French-speaking schools are not necessarily that well regarded outside of QC, except maybe UdeM. Certainly maturity level could have some correlation with age and play an indirect role on evaluation or performance.  

Regardless - being that bilingual is advantageous.  I tend to think that there is a significant neuro-developmental component for strong fluency, just like with primary language acquisition and that the opportunity  isnt' evenly distributed across the country.   I personally found the attempted switch from English to French extremely challenging and limiting  during medical school at a much more advanced age.