What "pre-med" program offers good background for med school?

[taicheng]

I would like to know which "pre-med" programs (undergraduate programs) will help well-prepare me for the MCAT and med school. And what are you opinions on the Health Sciences program at Western, Biomed Honours Science program at Waterloo (or biochem for life sciences?), and Life Sciences at McMasters? I have no clue what program is more geared for med school. I know that you do not have to take a "premed" program to get into med school, but that is what I'm going to do so that I'll have more knowledge in the sciences.

 

Also, any links to threads like mine? I'm sure there are some like this...but where...?

 

Thanks in advance .

 

Any information related to this and the:

-University of Western Ontario

-University of Waterloo

-McMaster University

-University of Guelph (eh? Is this even a decent uni >.<?)

... would be greatly appreciated!

[THX]

They are all good, at this level choose based how comfortable you are with the school, not the program. Plus, I really think all these programs are kind of overrated. They bill themselves med-school junior, but they are not. In fact, almost all of the 'medically related' course one has access to can just as easily be taken as electives while one is another program. Plus, your first two years are pretty much the same anywhere you go.

 

If you want some real advice: consider going to a school other than the big named ones. If I had to do it all again, I would consider a place like Mount Allison - better reference letters, more hands-on stuff if you are a good student and small classes, better teaching (less researchers.. and more lecturers)

 

Also, regarding Health Sciences at Western - it's a more of a health policy program than bio based.

 

note: I'm a 4th at Western, Honors Spec Medical Sciences

[taicheng]

I plan on attending a university near Cambridge, and want to go to university for badminton as well, so I'm also looking at how well the school has done in that sport and if their coaches are helping the athletes achieve those ranks. I also want the big university experience and am liking Western's nice campus....though I do feel obligated to go to Waterloo...probably because of my ethnicity (Taiwanese) and many Eastern Asians going to UoW. So now that I've ruled out looking into small universities...which university of my top 3 (not UoGuelph) is better known for teaching and having their students succeed?

[The Law]

THX is in my med sci class... I wonder if I actually know you in person...

 

Western's med sci program is really cool. Like THX mentioned, health sci at Western has biology in it... but is more general health care policy based.

[rmorelan]

-University of Guelph (eh? Is this even a decent uni >.<?)

... would be greatly appreciated!

 

In the defense of Guelph it is actually one of the best schools for biological studies in the country - including premed.

 

Some of the highlights include the Ontario Veterinarian College, ranked 3rd last time I checked on research funding in Canada (despite its size), good international reputation, if you believe in the Maclean's Magazine rankings it has been number one recently a few times and hovers around the top 3, and has some excellent professors and courses. I have had a lot of exposure to the school, and one of the professors there is a big part about why I decided to go into medicine.

 

Anyway all of the schools you mentioned are very good - going to any of them will give you a good start!

[Jewels1986]

You can't go wrong with any of those schools - just research the programs, visit them if you can, and then pick the one you like the best. Something nice about Western and Mac is that they have a lot of choice and they're uniformly good across most disciplines, so if you spontaneously decided in second year that you wanted to take philosophy or classics there'd still be a great program available. Schools like Waterloo tend to be a bit more focused on the particular subjects that they specialize in, but for pre-med I think you could have a really positive experience at any of those universities.

 

And yes, Guelph is a good school too.

[seeking1]

Well, since every one else is rallying around their program, I think I'll do the same. UW pre-med is pretty sweet actually, in regards to work load I think that UW does have a slight advantage, as anyone who talks to someone who goes to UW realizes that its all about nerding it up.

 

Seriously though, assuming you play things right here, you can get a lot going for you. LOTS of opportunities, and I'm pretty sure we have a strong badminton team here as well. So come here, just don't trip yourself up in any of the coop or health sci crowd, they detract from med school.

[skvangs]

Now this is why we need a "pre-premedder sub forum"

[THX]

Now this is why we need a "pre-premedder sub forum"

 

I really don't understand how people can be premed in high school. And it sucks that people are, because they head into science simply because they want to be a doctor, but don't make the grade and are stuck in a program they really don't enjoy. /rant

[iainrlamb]

Guelph has a prgm called Bio-medical science.....It is intended for pre-vet/pre-med it gives you all the required pre-reqs for all ontario vet/med schools. Also you have to maintain a 75% avg. in your first year or you get kick out into normal biological science. The reason Guelph is great is not only b/c of the OVC (ontario vet college) but it is small enough that you dont feel like 1 in a 1.000,000 if you get what i am saying....also they have 1 of the best biological science programs...and they just invested 50 mil in a new sexxxy science complex. In addition they are starting construction on a new labs

[Flame219]

Now this is why we need a "pre-premedder sub forum"

 

I seriously don't think that a "pre-premed" forum is as important as a "pre-optometry" forum. If one wants to add a sub-forum, optometry should be the next best choice. Why? Because Canadian pre-op students themselves do not have a forum for the whole country. Many many people from high school can post in this sub-forum to get answers, but those people (myself included) didn't even know that you can become an optometrist without entering medical school until entering university. Even so, the career resources from the universities I attended (Waterloo, McMaster, U of T) don't even have sufficient information relating to optometry career paths with the exception of Waterloo themselves. I know that the majority of people here in these forums right now have low interests in optometry, but the point is to attract people in Canada who do, and have a forum to relate their interests and strategies/experiences to.

 

Although currently in Canada there are only two schools that offer optometry programs, this will potentially change in future years. The University of Lethbridge of Alberta is leaning towards to opening up an optometry program in Alberta. This, plus the new regulations which allows optometrists to prescribe therapeutic pharmaceutical agents to treatments such as glaucoma, optometrists will be more integrated to Canadian primary health care, and is a viable alternative path to the usual pre-med, and the pre-dentristry paths currently this forum has.

 

Also, a lot of graduates in science (due in part to only a small portion of people enter medical schools and dental schools) pursue optometry either in Canada or the US. However, like us pre-meds applying to the States, pre-ops applying to the States might lack the guidance necessary for them to be well-informed for studying in the States (things such as LOCs, visa permits). True, there is a forum on SDN for pre-ops there and they could find it there. But that is the purpose of the sub-forum in America here too isn't it? To unite us pre-meds in Canada applying to the States so to let us more focused and informed. Also, if they have a pre-op forum there on SDN, why can't we have one here on premed101 too?

The forum could also be used to discuss test taking strategies and information related to the OAT test, which a lot of pre-ops feel the pain of it, like us do from taking the MCAT and also the DAT.

 

Anyway, this is just a proposal. Don't grill me if you disagree but I welcome opinions to it. Not just to pre-meds like yourselves, but also to potential pre-ops in Canada.

 

P.S. Sorry for the hijack OP! In my opinion, coming from those three universities mentioned above, the health science program in McMaster would be a good option to prepare for medical school. Like Western, Mac's health science program is health based instead of bio based, and also prepares you to be mentally prepared as a pre-med through courses such as inquiries, presentations, PBLs and the like.

[Jochi1543]

I seriously don't think that a "pre-premed" forum is as important as a "pre-optometry" forum. If one wants to add a sub-forum, optometry should be the next best choice. Why? Because Canadian pre-op students themselves do not have a forum for the whole country. Many many people from high school can post in this sub-forum to get answers, but those people (myself included) didn't even know that you can become an optometrist without entering medical school until entering university. Even so, the career resources from the universities I attended (Waterloo, McMaster, U of T) don't even have sufficient information relating to optometry career paths with the exception of Waterloo themselves. I know that the majority of people here in these forums right now have low interests in optometry, but the point is to attract people in Canada who do, and have a forum to relate their interests and strategies/experiences to.

 

Although currently in Canada there are only two schools that offer optometry programs, this will potentially change in future years. The University of Lethbridge of Alberta is leaning towards to opening up an optometry program in Alberta. This, plus the new regulations which allows optometrists to prescribe therapeutic pharmaceutical agents to treatments such as glaucoma, optometrists will be more integrated to Canadian primary health care, and is a viable alternative path to the usual pre-med, and the pre-dentristry paths currently this forum has.

 

Also, a lot of graduates in science (due in part to only a small portion of people enter medical schools and dental schools) pursue optometry either in Canada or the US. However, like us pre-meds applying to the States, pre-ops applying to the States might lack the guidance necessary for them to be well-informed for studying in the States (things such as LOCs, visa permits). True, there is a forum on SDN for pre-ops there and they could find it there. But that is the purpose of the sub-forum in America here too isn't it? To unite us pre-meds in Canada applying to the States so to let us more focused and informed. Also, if they have a pre-op forum there on SDN, why can't we have one here on premed101 too?

 

Anyway, this is just a proposal. Don't grill me if you disagree but I welcome opinions to it. Not just to pre-meds like yourselves, but also to potential pre-ops in Canada.

 

I hate to derail the OP's thread further, but I think if we oughta have a forum for optometry, we should prolly just have a forum for "non-MD health careers" or something. Then we could have a place to discuss optometry, nursing, paramedicine, speech and language pathology, or any other health professions. I don't think optometry alone warrants an entire forum.

[ploughboy]

Guelph has a prgm called Bio-medical science.....It is intended for pre-vet/pre-med it gives you all the required pre-reqs for all ontario vet/med schools. Also you have to maintain a 75% avg. in your first year or you get kick out into normal biological science. The reason Guelph is great is not only b/c of the OVC (ontario vet college) but it is small enough that you dont feel like 1 in a 1.000,000 if you get what i am saying....also they have 1 of the best biological science programs...and they just invested 50 mil in a new sexxxy science complex. In addition they are starting construction on a new labs

 

 

Pssst...Aggie Pubs! You forgot to mention Aggie Pubs!

[taicheng]

Okay, thanks for all the input! So I've narrowed my choices down to Western, Waterloo, and Guelph! Now...which Western program should I apply to? I originally had health sciences in mind, but apparently that is more geared towards food and nutrition. Some help here please?

 

For Waterloo and Guelph, I'll probably apply to the biomedical sciences.

 

Also, how is badminton at Guelph (if you happen to know)? Research time .

 

P.S. I knew that you didn't need to go to med school for optometry ^.^

[handleyj]

Also for Guelph they have a cadaver lab in year three. It is unique because it is the only uni in Ontario (possibly Canada) which has a cadaver lab not associated with a med school. This basically means you get a better lab more hands on than if you were the second set of people to get a go at it behind the med school. Also for Guelph's biomed program there is a mandatory research component in 4th year. This may help with med school applications.

 

For Western, having applied there last year I would recommend the BioMed program over the Health Sciences Program. Simply because of the course content and relatedness to Medicine.

 

However like it has been said a bunch of times, you should a) pick the course/major that you will get the best marks go to the university that will offer you the best chance of achieving your final goal.

 

Brock University while it has a bad reputation has a Med Plus program where from year one you get work experience and such with community doctors. It is intended to help your application to med school by giving you good contacts in the field. Plus they offer really good scholarships and perks for high marks:D

[lost__in__space]

hey I'm in health sci at Western and I'll level with you my program is 10 billion times easier than the med sci students and I personally think I'm getting a way better mark in health sci than what I would have gotten in bio med sci (having taken my full 2nd year of all bio med sci stream courses and scoring not as awesome on them as my health sci courses) BUT I'll also warn you that in health sci a lot of the classes are a bit boring / fluffy but they can be mark boosters to the max i.e. I got a 94% in occupational health woo!

 

Sometimes I am unhappy with my undergrad though, I feel that I am in too many of these fluffy courses and I'm not actually learning anything... but I stick with it for the mark earning potential which is high especially with the amount of work you put in to the course to the mark you get out compared to med sci (i.e. no labs, easy tutorial marks, etc.) and I needed that because I had 2 jobs last year.

 

BUT if you have a passion for bio or chem or anatomy or phys or microbio go to med sci, you won't enjoy health sci. If you like learning about health promo, occupational health, knowledge transfer, health and aging, palliative care, rural health, etc. come to health sci. I think at least that it's useful to know the other side of health care... you will learn the anatomy and biochem in medical school sure enough but with some medical schools only having 10 hours of training in something like palliative care... it will be important that you had undergrad training in these subjects.

[taicheng]

Okay ! So biomed for Guelph seems to been a good option and medical sciences (is that what biomed at Western is?) are the ones I shall lean towards! Definitely prefer those med sci courses you (lost in space) mentioned! Learning stuff I want to learn will definitely be much more interesting for me and allow me to enjoy studying...and therefore, score high marks =D (or so I'm hoping...). That health sciences program sounds kidn of boring...except for the health and aging...though I know there are a lot more courses there. Research I shall do. So what is the biomed program at Western called? Medical Sciences?Thanks for the input. Anything else I should know about? Guelph, Western, McMAster, and Waterloo.

[Byrne]

I'm in Biomed at Western, so I guess I could provide some insights.

 

First thing you should be aware of is that entry into this program is competitive every year -- once you get accepted in first year doesn't mean you'll graduate with a BMSc (Bachelor of Medical Science). The cutoffs for second year entry can be as high as 95% for some of the medical science honours "modules" (I guess a fancy way of saying "programs"), though they tend to fall off as you progress to third and fourth year.

 

In most modules, you'll only be taking very general courses your first two years (i.e., Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Calculus in first year and Organic Chemistry, Biochemistry, Cell Biology, Genetics, Statistics, and Scientific Methods in second year -- fill in empty timetable slots with electives) and things become really specialized in third and fourth year.

 

Here's a link to all the "Honours Specialization modules", which tend to involve the highest competition of all the med-sci modules:

 

http://uwo.ca/bmsc/PDF/guidelines/hsp_guidelines.pdf

 

As you can see, there are a number of directions you can go in depending on your interests. Good thing about having things fairly general the first two years is that you have until year three to figure out which "module" you really want to enter.

[rmorelan]

Pssst...Aggie Pubs! You forgot to mention Aggie Pubs!

 

We want them to get into medical school, not get drunk before every major test

 

Although those aggies KNOW how to party!

[rogerroger]

Well I am sure many programs can prep you well.

 

Western's Medical Science alumni are very well represented in Ontario med schools. I personally know over a dozen people from my Med Sci class who were accepted into med school this past spring.

 

With this said, the majority in the med sci program gun for med school but end up in grad school. So by no means is med school a guaranteed thing via this path... But it is like that with any program really...

[taicheng]

Okay, thanks Byrne, that really helped! Also...does anyone know what the chances of getting into med school are?

 

Also...what is the difference between the life sciences program at mcmaster and their health sciences?

And...western's medical science and normal science?

[handleyj]

If you do some reading around this site you will see that the chances of getting into med school are hard and at times seem to be a crapshoot. You need a very strong GPA and good EC + good personal references. The chances of getting in to a med school in Canada at least are not dependent on where you go (prestige) but a smaller university may help because of the availability for help and closer contact to profs.

 

For the Mac question from what I remember about applications is that the life science = bio med and that health sciences is similar to the Western program. So I think that it is similar to your response about the Western med sci and health sci.

 

For Western normal sci do you mean a general Science degree or a Bio Sci degree?

[Flame219]

Coming as a McMaster grad myself, the major difference between Mac's Life Science program and their Health Sciences program is, as handleyj has said, Life Science focuses you on science related biology subjects such as biochemistry, microbiology, physiology and related sciences. Life in such a program is all about m.c. tests, going to lectures, and eventually a 4th year thesis (which is not necessary) as well. I would say it's suitable for people who do not want to be involved in projects, group activities and class discussions.

 

Health sciences, on the other hand, is ALL about projects, group activities, class discussions. There are of course traditional style lectures, but compared to other majors, health sciences focuses on presentations and problem based learning skills --> skills that prepare you to interact with people as a professional. The subjects health sciences covers are all related to the health of the body, such as anatomy, physiology, immunology, neuropsychology, etc. Scope of subjects are more or less equal to Western's Health science program. It is a harder program to get into, but hey, Mac's health sciences program gives an inflation of As and A+s that the majority of people there are 80+s! As their Dean suggests, the highest statistics of matriculating into a medical school can be as high as 50%! That is, partly of course, due to the selected individuals that are in the program, but also because the program itself is relatively more laid back than others.

[taicheng]

General science, handleyj. Okay...so what you are telling me is that it would be more wise to find a program with less students enrolled in the program because I have a better chance of standing out? Meaning...that I will have better references and so? I've done some research and:

-Waterloo accepts 170 students to their Honours Science program (where I must apply for biomedical science) (competitive?)

-Western accepts 1100 to their biology and medical science program (I'm lost here...isn't the medical science science progam hard to get into? Does anyone know numbers for med sci only? Also...what's the difference if you specialize in med sci, microbiology, toxicology / patholoy...etc...asides from self interest? Does it affect med school acceptance chances?)

-McMaster accepts 945 students to their life sciences program (competitive?)

-Guelph accepts 100 students to their biomedical sciences program (is this a really competitive program for guelph?)

 

So...out of those programs, what would be the pros and cons of each?

 

 

Aside: Health Sciences is not in my choices anymore ...thanks to all those helped me narrow things down!

[THX]

General science, handleyj. Okay...so what you are telling me is that it would be more wise to find a program with less students enrolled in the program because I have a better chance of standing out? Meaning...that I will have better references and so? I've done some research and:

-Waterloo accepts 170 students to their Honours Science program (where I must apply for biomedical science) (competitive?)

-Western accepts 1100 to their biology and medical science program (I'm lost here...isn't the medical science science progam hard to get into? Does anyone know numbers for med sci only? Also...what's the difference if you specialize in med sci, microbiology, toxicology / patholoy...etc...asides from self interest? Does it affect med school acceptance chances?)

-McMaster accepts 945 students to their life sciences program (competitive?)

-Guelph accepts 100 students to their biomedical sciences program (is this a really competitive program for guelph?)

 

So...out of those programs, what would be the pros and cons of each?

 

 

Aside: Health Sciences is not in my choices anymore ...thanks to all those helped me narrow things down!

Just to clarify something, the school you attend and the program you enroll into has zero barring on your chances of entering med school -ie. the admission committees couldn't care less so long as you did well. So don't pick your program thinking that it will help you get into med school - because it won't.

 

Also, the Western medical sciences program is deceiving because while the entering class is very large, many won't be able to stay in the program because there are cut-offs that must be met each year (mid 80's for second year, low 80's for 3rd year and it was 75% for 4th year I believe) - so each any every year you run the chance of getting kicked out. It's not a big deal if you are a good student, but it does explain why the program is considered 'competitive' beyond 1st year.