leviathan Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Airline+told+flight+medical+service/1778779/story.html He was asked twice to deal with a patient having an anxiety attack, when another doctor was on board dealing with that patient. What do you think? Justified, or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJ Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Interesting story. Well, it certainly did cause this doctor some inconvenience since he had to face a potential conflict with the other doctor doing the treatment and he certainly didn't volunteer himself to treat the second patient. But the claims this doctor made are too much, IMO. Asking for the value of an executive class fare, a day of vacation lost, and for the medical services provided is simply too much. IMO, the doctor should get some kind of compensation (not necessarily monetary) because he didn't volunteer to or have any obligation to treat the second patient, but this situation shows how some view medicine as a commodity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Airline+told+flight+medical+service/1778779/story.html He was asked twice to deal with a patient having an anxiety attack, when another doctor was on board dealing with that patient. What do you think? Justified, or not? Personally, I wouldn't have asked for anything but I think the courts may be right (to an extent). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Interesting story. Well, it certainly did cause this doctor some inconvenience since he had to face a potential conflict with the other doctor doing the treatment and he certainly didn't volunteer himself to treat the second patient. But the claims this doctor made are too much, IMO. Asking for the value of an executive class fare, a day of vacation lost, and for the medical services provided is simply too much. Although the doctor should get some kind of compensation (which he has) because he didn't volunteer to or have any obligation to treat the second patient, this situation shows how some view medicine as a commodity. Exactly, he's a whiner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamP Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 so I don't understand, was the other doctor legit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 so I don't understand, was the other doctor legit? I think that he was but it wasn't provable at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnface Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Airline+told+flight+medical+service/1778779/story.html He was asked twice to deal with a patient having an anxiety attack, when another doctor was on board dealing with that patient. What do you think? Justified, or not? What a complete and utter embarrassment to the entire profession of medicine. I thought we were part of an altruistic profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 What a complete and utter embarrassment to the entire profession of medicine. I thought we were part of an altruistic profession. Well, to be the devil's advocate, one must draw the line somewhere. Otherwise all Drs would just work for free and only charge for the direct costs such as technology use. It's never a fully altruistic line of work. People have to get paid. And I understand why people don't want to be bothered by being asked to provide medical advice ("check out my rash") or perform procedures while they are not on duty. Last but not least, being a good Samaritan can also be quite a risky endeavour. People WILL attempt to sue you if something goes wrong and yes, depending on the laws where you live, you could end up losing the case. Reminds me of an incident somewhere in California a few years ago, a couple of coworkers went out, got into a car accident, the car started on fire. One woman was trapped in the burning vehicle and one of the guys pulled her out. Incidentally, she had injured her back in the crash, and became a paraplegic after - and it was proven in court that had she not been moved, the permanent injury would likely not have taken place. Anyway, the Good Samaritan lost the case and he had to pay his coworker, whose life he saved risking his own in a car fire, on the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars. She would`ve likely died had he not dragged her out of the car, but that wasn`t at the center of the court`s attention - her spinal injury was. Incidentally, he probably would NOT have been sued if he had opted to stay back and NOT help her - many places do not require you to help anyone if it involves risks to your own safety. Look it up if you`re interested. So bottom line is, you have to be careful about providing medical (or any) help to people who are not paying you and thus entering a contract. Not defending this guy in particular, but just throwing it out there in general terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mei_Mei_girl Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Well, to be the devil's advocate, one must draw the line somewhere. Otherwise all Drs would just work for free and only charge for the direct costs such as technology use. It's never a fully altruistic line of work. People have to get paid. And I understand why people don't want to be bothered by being asked to provide medical advice ("check out my rash") or perform procedures while they are not on duty. Last but not least, being a good Samaritan can also be quite a risky endeavour. People WILL attempt to sue you if something goes wrong and yes, depending on the laws where you live, you could end up losing the case. Reminds me of an incident somewhere in California a few years ago, a couple of coworkers went out, got into a car accident, the car started on fire. One woman was trapped in the burning vehicle and one of the guys pulled her out. Incidentally, she had injured her back in the crash, and became a paraplegic after - and it was proven in court that had she not been moved, the permanent injury would likely not have taken place. Anyway, the Good Samaritan lost the case and he had to pay his coworker, whose life he saved risking his own in a car fire, on the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars. She would`ve likely died had he not dragged her out of the car, but that wasn`t at the center of the court`s attention - her spinal injury was. Incidentally, he probably would NOT have been sued if he had opted to stay back and NOT help her - many places do not require you to help anyone if it involves risks to your own safety. Look it up if you`re interested. So bottom line is, you have to be careful about providing medical (or any) help to people who are not paying you and thus entering a contract. Not defending this guy in particular, but just throwing it out there in general terms. Very good point. Sometimes "doing good" isn't the right thing to do. It would be nice if our world worked that way but I agree that you have to watch your butt sometimes too....unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJ Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Well, to be the devil's advocate, one must draw the line somewhere. Otherwise all Drs would just work for free and only charge for the direct costs such as technology use. It's never a fully altruistic line of work. People have to get paid. And I understand why people don't want to be bothered by being asked to provide medical advice ("check out my rash") or perform procedures while they are not on duty. Last but not least, being a good Samaritan can also be quite a risky endeavour. People WILL attempt to sue you if something goes wrong and yes, depending on the laws where you live, you could end up losing the case. Reminds me of an incident somewhere in California a few years ago, a couple of coworkers went out, got into a car accident, the car started on fire. One woman was trapped in the burning vehicle and one of the guys pulled her out. Incidentally, she had injured her back in the crash, and became a paraplegic after - and it was proven in court that had she not been moved, the permanent injury would likely not have taken place. Anyway, the Good Samaritan lost the case and he had to pay his coworker, whose life he saved risking his own in a car fire, on the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars. She would`ve likely died had he not dragged her out of the car, but that wasn`t at the center of the court`s attention - her spinal injury was. Incidentally, he probably would NOT have been sued if he had opted to stay back and NOT help her - many places do not require you to help anyone if it involves risks to your own safety. Look it up if you`re interested. So bottom line is, you have to be careful about providing medical (or any) help to people who are not paying you and thus entering a contract. Not defending this guy in particular, but just throwing it out there in general terms. excellent point. In this particular case, the doctor has overstepped the borders in terms of the compensation he expects. It almost appears as if the doctor is trying to exploit the situation for financial gain rather than aim for fair compensation for the inconvenience and potential risks he undertook in treating this patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 A great cautionary first account of what can happen to a Good Samaritan, from a paramedic: http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=10874&highlight=lawyer i think i will throw one of my messed up events in. I am OFF DUTY at college hanging out with my geeky friends at a LARP (live action role playing) [YES, IM A NERD] the feild where we play is within sight of 3 MAJOR hospitals. 2 Trauma 1's and a teaching hospital. Man walks out of the teaching hospital, crosses the road safely, meets up with his family infront of the hotel on the sidewalk. hugs all around. (i was *dead* in game so i was watching this.) Campus Parking vehicle rounds the corner, accelerates like mad, 40+MPH in less than 200Ft. hops the curb and hits the man, his wife, and wings the daughter. I ran to my truck and grabbed my jump bag. (small trauma kit from ferno) and dash to the scene. Man is agonal, and loosing a massive amount of blood from an open skull fracture. His wife has a obviously boken femur. I do abc's on her, she is yelling at me to go help her husband. (911 was called by several of the Larpers) so I'm an off duty basic, I have one of my friends glove up and hold c-spine (Nursing senior) while i try to do what i can. someone flags down a private ambulance begging for help since i cant do all that much. (He is breathing, with assistance from a pocket mask, and has a weak pulse. im trying to stop the bleeding and do vent.) They stop and jump out to help, medic to my pt, basic to his wife. We still have no 911 response on scene. (dispaching hospital with their name on the rigs is about 1000 ft away.) the private co.'s ride along finds out that my pt was just released after triple bypass. medic now has me bagging the pt. he is CTD. Local EMS shows up and takes over my Pt. (we will call him tom) Tom got put on a board with full precautions, and is being loaded with 2 emt-P's in the back with him. Rig two shows up for his wife with the cops. traction splint, full precautions here. I have cleaned up and am checking out the daughter. Tender LL quadrant where the mirror hit her. swollen wrist, most likely broken, so i start basic first aid here, and she waits for the third rig. Found out that "Tom" lived for another 2 hours, and his wife and daughter have asked to see me. I go in with my boss (was with local EMS, but off that day for classes) and they thank me for everything i did, and invite me to attend the funeral (this is several days later) I go, in full dress uniform. and pay my respects and genenerally try to help people through the hard time. Now. fast forward 4 months. my boss calls me and say they are trying to sue me now, for not having done more to save Tom. the hospital backs me up and i had stayed in my scope of practice as an off duty EMT-B to the letter. the case was dropped as CCTV from the hotel the incident was infront of showed exactly what I did. They got the school for 3Mil. BUT they were trying to get another 1 mil from me. (i doubt i will ever have a million dollars. IM NOT A DOC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMmd Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Well, to be the devil's advocate, one must draw the line somewhere. Otherwise all Drs would just work for free and only charge for the direct costs such as technology use. It's never a fully altruistic line of work. People have to get paid. And I understand why people don't want to be bothered by being asked to provide medical advice ("check out my rash") or perform procedures while they are not on duty. Last but not least, being a good Samaritan can also be quite a risky endeavour. People WILL attempt to sue you if something goes wrong and yes, depending on the laws where you live, you could end up losing the case. Reminds me of an incident somewhere in California a few years ago, a couple of coworkers went out, got into a car accident, the car started on fire. One woman was trapped in the burning vehicle and one of the guys pulled her out. Incidentally, she had injured her back in the crash, and became a paraplegic after - and it was proven in court that had she not been moved, the permanent injury would likely not have taken place. Anyway, the Good Samaritan lost the case and he had to pay his coworker, whose life he saved risking his own in a car fire, on the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars. She would`ve likely died had he not dragged her out of the car, but that wasn`t at the center of the court`s attention - her spinal injury was. Incidentally, he probably would NOT have been sued if he had opted to stay back and NOT help her - many places do not require you to help anyone if it involves risks to your own safety. Look it up if you`re interested. So bottom line is, you have to be careful about providing medical (or any) help to people who are not paying you and thus entering a contract. Not defending this guy in particular, but just throwing it out there in general terms. rules and ethics are quite different in canada, so that would not really happen here. as to this guy, facque can you speak or not, if you are not willing to help just tell the stewardess to buzz off and bring you alcohol. In the end he made the decision to intervene and he should accept any inconvenience this may have caused him. what's next ppl suing because they were awaken by turbulence... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 rules and ethics are quite different in canada, so that would not really happen here. as to this guy, facque can you speak or not, if you are not willing to help just tell the stewardess to buzz off and bring you alcohol. In the end he made the decision to intervene and he should accept any inconvenience this may have caused him. what's next ppl suing because they were awaken by turbulence... lol Funny you mention turbulence because the fine print of my flight information I am reading here specifically states that airline is not responsible for delays or discomfort caused by weather and turbulence This guy certainly is not living up to my vision of a doctor (accepting that doctors do deserve fair compensation and a measure of "peace" when not on duty). Correct me if I am wrong here, but in Canada aren't doctors required by law to assist in an emergency situation if they happen to be present? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 aren't doctors required by law to assist in an emergency situation if they happen to be present? You raise an interesting question to which I do not know the answer. I do not that in Quebec decades ago, physicians always had "MD" as part of their licence number. I guess it was for prestige. And, physicians then routinely stopped their cars if they saw someone in need, for example, an auto accident or somebody collapsed on a sidedwalk. Then, MD on the licence plate disappeared and phyisicans no longer stopped to help! I guess there are malpractice implications should the newly discovered patient or his/her family find a reason to question the physician's judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 My first thought on reading this was "hey cool, Air Canada has diazepam on its planes!" I'm such a bad person... All joking aside, based on the limited info in the article the amount of compensation requested seems on the high side. But, I wasn't there so it's hard to say. I'd certainly be grumpy if I my vacation started off the way Dr. Coopersmith's did. I just don't know if I'd be $3000 worth of grumpy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 My first thought on reading this was "hey cool, Air Canada has diazepam on its planes!" I'm such a bad person... All joking aside, based on the limited info in the article the amount of compensation requested seems on the high side. But, I wasn't there so it's hard to say. I'd certainly be grumpy if I my vacation started off the way Dr. Coopersmith's did. I just don't know if I'd be $3000 worth of grumpy. I would think the patient had it worse...doctors and stewards fighting over whether or not to give him Valium and whether or not they're actually doctors when he's already (apparently, if they're even discussing it) anxious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 I would think the patient had it worse...doctors and stewards fighting over whether or not to give him Valium and whether or not they're actually doctors when he's already (apparently, if they're even discussing it) anxious. You make an excellent point. Sounds like all involved could have used some valium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 You make an excellent point. Sounds like all involved could have used some valium. I could use some right now in fact....a glass of wine will just have to do. It's past noon somewhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuma Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 So Air Canada has diazepam on the planes in hopes that there is a qualified doc on board to order it?? They must have a protocol to deal with anxious passengers, if they actually have meds on board, that doesn`t involve using an MD on board?? There are alot of medical issues I would be happy to deal with on a plane...not sure an anxious passenger is one of those things though! Hard to know exactly how anxious the pt was though having not been there. If the passenger was being threatning to him/herself or others, ok...but if it is just a matter of the passenger feeling uncomfortable and maybe being a bit disruptive, I dunno, the airlines should be able to deal with that imo. They could even just give some OTC gravol and put him to sleep! Maybe this doc just felt like the airline was taking advantage of him, especially given that another doc was taking care of things. Maybe he didn`t even feel that it was an emergency he needed to take care of. Who knows. But who really wants to start off their vacation working! I don't particularly find it objectionable that the doc wants compensation for being "forced" into helping someone he didn`t volunteer to help. (not saying I would ask for compensation, not sure I would, but I wasn`t there). The appropriate amount can be debated, but I guess the courts decided that already. The story kind of makes me smile...cause I absolutely hate Air Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 You'd be surprised what they carry on airliners, especially transcontinental flights! The airlines can't give valium but it's there along with the rest of the drugs in case a doctor or trained person (nurse, paramedic) is on board. I think the latter two require a doctor from the ground to authorize them to give anything, though. Anyway the best idea for flights if you don't want to be bothered is to just order a bunch of drinks at the start and then nobody can bother you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuma Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Anyway the best idea for flights if you don't want to be bothered is to just order a bunch of drinks at the start and then nobody can bother you. Ha ha...I'll keep that in mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benito Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'm quite torn by this. Maybe the guy really needed those holidays. I'd be very pissed to be bothered when there was already someone else taking care of that. On the other side, yes it's a duty to help. But being a doctor is not being Jesus. You don't have to sacrifice everything for the others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astudentis Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 what about the other doc.. does he want some compensation too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuma Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 what about the other doc.. does he want some compensation too? I think the doc that is sueing is only sueing for the second passenger he saw. The one he didn`t volunteer to help, the one already being seen by another doc who didn`t want his help. From what I understood, he is not sueing for compensation for the first passenger he volunteered to see. In the same way, I don`t think that the doc that was originally seeing the anxious passenger would ask for compensation after volunteering his services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewelLeigh Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 What a complete and utter embarrassment to the entire profession of medicine. I thought we were part of an altruistic profession. I disagree. While we are part of an altruistic profession, and I would hope that any physician or other trained person would step up in a medical emergency, we also have to face the reality that we live in an litiginous society. This doctor, while on vacation, at the request of the airline, not only provided a medical service, but probably felt obligated (professionally and under pressure from the airline staff) to disagree with another physician's opinion and to change the course of treatment by that physician. This is a huge liability for the intervening doctor. What if the patient was post-ictal and then re-seized because the valium was not given? What if the patient suffered worsening of their mental condition and endangered another passenger - another situation that may have been prevented by the valium. While I obviously don't know the medical situation, any physician treating any patient, especially outside the context of his/her usual work environment is opening themselves up to some danger from a legal perspective. In this particular case, this danger is even more because the course of action that would've been taken by another physician was changed by the intervening physician. Of course we hope and assume that the intervening physician was correct, but if he was incorrect, the ramifications could be significant. This physician understandably is asking for compensation for not only the time and stress involved during the event, but the professional liability he took on at the request of the airline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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