No More Provisional Acceptance

[AdamP]

This system is so damn crazy.

 

Waitlist movement is a now a function of people with MULTIPLE acceptances. That is the ONLY way the wait list will move... and honestly, how many people get accepted to MULTIPLE(2 or more) schools these days????

 

School invites 500 people to an interview

 

They plan on accepting 160.

 

Of the 160, I am going to say a REALLY small fraction will get an acceptance at another school too. Probably 10%. That is 16 people. We also have to assess whether that other school is their first choice. Lets assume 50% of the 10% that have a multiple acceptance want the other school. Wait list movement = 8 PEOPLE

 

 

EDIT: I realize that the actual # of people who get multi acceptances may be considerably higher than 10%, but that doesnt take away from the point that the waistlist movement will be extremly small this year.

 

EDIT 2: The explanation above assumes the following: Applicant wants schools A. On May 15, Applicant gets accepted to School B, C, but waitlisted at A. Applicant will never consider rejecting offers to B,C, and to wait and hope that he gets off the waitlist at School A. (This is obviously the logical approach, but I hope there are stupid people out there that will will consider the alternative.. )

 

It's like the opposite of what you say.

 

The people who are accepted off the bat have the best interview skills are are therefore the most likely to get multiple acceptances...especially on the Ontario circuit

[Star1234]

If this makes any difference, UBC just informed all applicants that we have 4 days to decide....decisions go out on May 14th and we have until May 18th to make a decision....so that should also move things along quicker lol

[DanInVan]

If this makes any difference, UBC just informed all applicants that we have 4 days to decide....decisions go out on May 14th and we have until May 18th to make a decision....so that should also move things along quicker lol

 

So nice of them to essentially give us one business day eh?

[rmorelan]

So nice of them to essentially give us one business day eh?

 

hopefully no one planned to be away during that time

[terryann]

Hmm...I will be out of the country for my sisters grad..who knew. Well my UBC interview did not go well so it probably does not matters.

[foregoneconclusion]

I think this is a very positive development. Knowing many people who were on waitlists and being on two waitlists last year, going into mid-JULY still not knowing was torturous. People have to plan their lives and if it isn't going to pan out, they should have some notice.

 

I also wish that there'd be complete transparency (you are on the waitlist, you are #47/150, in previous years, there was x amount of waitlisters accepted) but I suppose that's a pipe dream.

[jk.rofling]

Waitlist movement is always a function of people with multiple acceptances, barring deferred acceptances or some other situation that doesn't occur too often.

 

It's possible that some schools will experience more movement than in previous years, while others will experience less than in previous year. In the end though, the total movement should be pretty much the same relative to other years.

 

For instance, let's say Kareem gets accepted to Mac, but is waitlisted at U of T. He really wants U of T, but firmly accepts Mac so as to not look like an unwise gambler if he doesn't get accepted off the U of T waitlist. It turns out, however, that if Kareem had gambled, he would have received the final offer of acceptance to U of T. Now that he left, Sin-Young moved up the list and is now a U of T med student.

 

 

If provisional acceptances were in play, Kareem could have accepted Mac conditionally and then eventually accepted U of T firmly once he moved up enough on the waitlist. He would have received the final waitlist offer, so Sin-Young would have been out of luck.

 

Now that Kareem is no longer going to Mac, Afeni moves up a spot and she now has an offer to Mac.

 

This wasn't a great or intricate example, but it shows that regardless of which acceptance method is used, the overall waitlist movement will be the same.

 

Thank you for the ethnically sensitive example. However I am offended that you did not include "western" names.

[UTPEOPLE]

Thank you for the ethnically sensitive example. However I am offended that you did not include "western" names.

 

lol... there were only three names used... no matter which "ethnicity" were used for the 3, others would have felt left out.

[Nobodycirclesthewagons]

Thank you for the ethnically sensitive example. However I am offended that you did not include "western" names.

 

Hahah, I was just trying something differet...Next time, next time

 

lol... there were only three names used... no matter which "ethnicity" were used for the 3, others would have felt left out.

 

Heh, true.

[Rosie]

So is this lack of provisional acceptance official? I'm surprised there have been no updates to the OMSAS site...

[HBP]

So is this lack of provisional acceptance official? I'm surprised there have been no updates to the OMSAS site...

 

it was mentioned on the ut blog, as well as during ottawa interview orientation

 

i think that's fairly official since if one school is doing it, all have to...

[runningdoc]

it was mentioned on the ut blog, as well as during ottawa interview orientation

 

i think that's fairly official since if one school is doing it, all have to...

 

Still, it wasn't mentioned everywhere. Western didn't mention it, and you would think that OMSAS would be "the source" to mention something like that.

[nemesis]

So is this lack of provisional acceptance official? I'm surprised there have been no updates to the OMSAS site...

 

If you check out the OMSAS Important Dates 2009-10 (http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/omsas-dates.html), you will note that May 13, 2010 is listed as the day that offers are first made.

 

In previous cycles, there would be another important date listed (e.g. June 12) which would indicate when provisional acceptances became firm.

 

The lack of such a date this cycle, would indicate that the provisional acceptance feature is no longer in effect. That's the only official (OMSAS) source of information (or actually, lack of information) which leads to this conclusion.

 

At the same time, this is contradicted by OUAC information contained in the pdf booklets which indicates otherwise (http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/pdf/western.pdf, e.g. "Please note that all provisional acceptances become firm on June 12, 2010").

 

I think it's safe to say, however, that based on the UTMedAdmissions's Blog and the list of OMSAS Important Dates, that provisional acceptances no longer exist for the 2010 cycle.

[The Law]

Well not just that, it would be another administrative hurdle to overcome. I'm in favour of it but for the Med Schools to build a system to allow students to know where they rank that is updated consistently enough to appease us wouldn't be as easy as we declare it.

 

Someone has to build the database. Someone has to maintain the database. Someone has to field the questions about why they were placed X on the wait-list. Someone has to field questions about waitlist movement (how much will there be...why isn't it updated yet, etc.)

 

Oh come on, it's not that difficult to do. Dalhousie does it. There's no reason the others can't.

[shannn]

Well not just that, it would be another administrative hurdle to overcome. I'm in favour of it but for the Med Schools to build a system to allow students to know where they rank that is updated consistently enough to appease us wouldn't be as easy as we declare it.

 

Someone has to build the database. Someone has to maintain the database. Someone has to field the questions about why they were placed X on the wait-list. Someone has to field questions about waitlist movement (how much will there be...why isn't it updated yet, etc.)

 

Isn't that why we pay so much $$ to OMSAS?

[runningdoc]

Oh come on, it's not that difficult to do. Dalhousie does it. There's no reason the others can't.

 

I agree completely, but there really isn't much that the Med schools do to suggest that they give the slightest bit of interest in the pursuits of the applicants. Once you get in they are excellent at being a support and information centre, but for pre-admission stuff they don't really leave you with a warm and fuzzy feeling.

[rmorelan]

Oh come on, it's not that difficult to do. Dalhousie does it. There's no reason the others can't.

 

I guess there is just no real incentive for them to do it - that won't improve the quality of the end applicants they recieve (particularly now with the loss of provisional acceptance) and they know it will be heart breaking for the person left at the very top of the waitlist come the start of school. The schools won't gain anything, and it will cost them money to set it up and run it (as a side note I am constantly surprised at just how little money admissions offices have to work with)

[rmorelan]

Isn't that why we pay so much $$ to OMSAS?

 

actually this would be the one organization that could arrange for it, but it is not in their mandate currently. I won't be surprised though that if they did offer it that high fee is just going to increase further

[supafield]

I guess there is just no real incentive for them to do it - that won't improve the quality of the end applicants they recieve (particularly now with the loss of provisional acceptance) and they know it will be heart breaking for the person left at the very top of the waitlist come the start of school. The schools won't gain anything, and it will cost them money to set it up and run it (as a side note I am constantly surprised at just how little money admissions offices have to work with)

 

I imagine so... I would guess, in a vote, the schools could levy another 5 or 10 dollars from each applicant to establish the system.

 

Heart breaking for #78 when the waitlist only moves 77 spots.

 

However, for the 100-250 people (depending on the school) who see they're ranked below spot 150 and can start planning for their next year... whether that's improving their application or accepting another program and moving.

 

I really believe there is a better way of doing it. Not necessarily exact ranks. Perhaps in Quart or Quintiles... or just a good/bad waitlist as Ottawa does it.

Western last year did have a high priority waitlist which was a good step. Queen's, Mac and Toronto though... lets see something! lol

[runningdoc]

Maybe the next question to ask is who's best interests need to be protected the most, the person who is #10 on the waiting list, or the person who is the first person to not receive an offer after waitlist movement? I don't know what the best answer to that question is but I think I lean more towards the higher wait-list candidate.

 

I very well could end up being one of those #78 on a list of 77 candidates, but I think that could also indicate just how close you are to getting in. The immediate pain of just missing out would eventually regress to finding just one more thing to put you over the top if you reapplied. I think it might actually give me more incentive the next year if I knew that I was truly that close to getting in. Whereas, if you were still well down the list, you have absolutely no idea how much work you have to do to move from being an interview candidate to a Med student.

 

Quartiles is an interesting idea, especially as it wouldn't require much update from the Admissions office other than to release something saying they have started making wait-list offers to Quartile-1, Quartile-2, etc.

[supafield]

On that line of thinking but more broadly...

 

No one individual needs to gain priority over the other...

With a system that gives some indication, not only are the higher ranked applicants helped, but so are the people way down the list that really never had a hope.

 

How about this....

 

1) Good waitlist (take the average of the last 3-5 years of waitlist movement and subtract 25 people from it)

2) Average Waitlist (those 25 people better than the 5 year average, and the 25 people that fall after it.

3) The better find a new plan waitlist - those lower than the average group.

 

So you have a group with a good idea they're getting in, a group that could go either way based on a good or bad year, and a group that can move on more or less and if by chance you do make it to that group... I'm sure they won't complain lol.

 

You of course have to load the e-mails with, these rankings assure nothing, the waitlist may move no spots at all... but based on the last several years...

 

I don't know.... If I ever get in, perhaps I'll suggest it and learn why a system like this isn't feasible.

[maodiddymao]

They actually don't tell you where you are on the waitlist because most schools think it would be detrimental. It's very hard to predict how much the waitlist will move, so for the vast majority of people on the list knowing where they stand is actually detrimental. As much as you tell someone that previous years can't predict how the list will move, if someone is X on the waitlist and they accepted someone close to X on the waitlist last year, there's no way that person won't start planning around getting in. If and when they don't, they will be very unhappy and possibly without backup plans.

 

For the people that are at the top of the waitlist who would most definitely be getting in, knowing their position is nice, but it's not really giving them much. If they only have the one acceptance, they'll be getting in anyway so it doesn't matter. If they have multiple acceptances, knowing their position so they can be more selective is a luxury, and they don't feel the need to cater to those people.

 

This is why most schools feel it does more harm than good. I know it doesn't feel that way, but they're doing it for your benefit.

 

Also, if you think Dalhousie is great for doing it, a few years ago they sent out waitlist letters indicating applicants' positions, but they realized they screwed up and ordered it wrong and had to re-send the letters with the proper ranking. I know someone who, during that catastrophe, was originally #2 on the waitlist and later found out they were actually #12. They didn't get in. Think of how pissed off you would be if that happened.

[xIcewind]

They actually don't tell you where you are on the waitlist because most schools think it would be detrimental. It's very hard to predict how much the waitlist will move, so for the vast majority of people on the list knowing where they stand is actually detrimental. As much as you tell someone that previous years can't predict how the list will move, if someone is X on the waitlist and they accepted someone close to X on the waitlist last year, there's no way that person won't start planning around getting in. If and when they don't, they will be very unhappy and possibly without backup plans.

 

For the people that are at the top of the waitlist who would most definitely be getting in, knowing their position is nice, but it's not really giving them much. If they only have the one acceptance, they'll be getting in anyway so it doesn't matter. If they have multiple acceptances, knowing their position so they can be more selective is a luxury, and they don't feel the need to cater to those people.

 

This is why most schools feel it does more harm than good. I know it doesn't feel that way, but they're doing it for your benefit.

 

Also, if you think Dalhousie is great for doing it, a few years ago they sent out waitlist letters indicating applicants' positions, but they realized they screwed up and ordered it wrong and had to re-send the letters with the proper ranking. I know someone who, during that catastrophe, was originally #2 on the waitlist and later found out they were actually #12. They didn't get in. Think of how pissed off you would be if that happened.

 

I agree what what you said, but I still feel the above "good, ok, bad" waitlist idea is a good solution to this.

 

I'm personally in 3rd year, so I have another school year ahead of me. However, knowing where I"ll be next year (if I do get waitlisted) would be immensely important--I would know, likely, if I should commit myself to certain activities for the summer that would carry over for the next academic year, or instead hold off until any final notice as been reached. Also, I'd be applying to US schools the next cycle if I don't make it. That could be potentially thousand(s) of wasted application fees that could be saved or held off, depending on my position.

 

If I were graduating, I could make plans to start any post-graduate degree, or find a job, during this time. I wouldn't want to sit around for 4 months waiting on news--that's lost time and energy, but nor do I want to start a job and have to quit in two weeks.

 

I suppose the tl;dr version would be that I think everyone would appreciate news on realistically, how likely they are in getting in. If I'm top quartile I'd factor that into my decision, and if I'm bottom quartile, y'know, I'd just work on applying and improving.

[runningdoc]

Is it the admissions offices responsibility for bad planning from the applicant pool?

 

I understand that if I am ranked #40 on the waitlist that I will probably have a decent shot at getting an offer from a school that has historically had 55-70 people from the waitlist get offers, but if you sell your house based on that, it isn't irresponsibility from the admissions office that is at fault if you don't get in.

 

That would be akin to a kid scoring a 30 on the MCAT, having a 3.80 GPA and then not considering a fall-back for the year if he doesn't even get an offer. Having competitive stats doesn't guarantee you an interview. Having a competitive interview doesn't guarantee you a spot in the medical class. That doesn't change whether you are #2 on the wait-list or #144.

 

While getting an incorrectly printed letter with your ranking spot would be bad, it also wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened. People get rejection letters for interviews when they meet the cutoff criteria (and after review are granted an interview) every year. People have received acceptance letters without meeting the criteria. People get offers and have them rescinded for schools, jobs, and other events all the time.

 

Personally, I would rather get bad news full on than be left in a limbo of guessing until next year. I have a wife (and thus family) that will greatly be impacted by where I get in. It isn't just me who has to deal with moving to a city where I get an offer. Having time to look for a house, a job, a family doctor (for children), and other requirements takes time, and it is stuff that can be done before the last wait-list offer is handed out. But it provides an opportunity for my family to make decisions on how our next year is going to carry forward. If I'm waitlist #100, it saves the trouble of searching for all of those things in multiple cities. If I'm waitlist #50, it would be irresponsible to not consider the possibility of being in that city, but at the same time it would be just as irresponsible to bank on that offer too.

[HBP]

Should bring up these valid arguments with the schools rather than posting essays here