No More Provisional Acceptance

[maodiddymao]

Should bring up these valid arguments with the schools rather than posting essays here

 

The information I posted is basically what any admissions office has told me when I brought up the issue. Feel free to to do the same though, eventually something may change.

[HBP]

You really have to make a big stink for **** to change in Canada. Logical arguments from one person go nowhere.

[rmorelan]

For the people that are at the top of the waitlist who would most definitely be getting in, knowing their position is nice, but it's not really giving them much. If they only have the one acceptance, they'll be getting in anyway so it doesn't matter. If they have multiple acceptances, knowing their position so they can be more selective is a luxury, and they don't feel the need to cater to those people.

 

I think it might even be simpler than that - With provisional acceptance you will never have the waitlist/multiple acceptance problem. You will either find out immediately you can go to one of X schools and pretty much have to go to one of them to be safe, or you are waitlisted and which ever one calls you first with acceptance is the one you go to

[rmorelan]

With the new system in place pretty much everyone will know by June 15 anyway I think and likely very much earlier than that(?). The system will move just that much more quickly. I am hoping anyway

[Cyradis]

Haha, just read this topic while killing some time... a lot of discussion eh?

 

Here's my 2 cents:

 

This WILL make the wait-list move a lot faster - thus benefiting schools with respect to administrative work/being able to finalize their class lists pretty early.

 

This WILL benefit students who are wait listed ONLY with no acceptances.

 

This will HARM students who are wait listed at their top choice and accepted elsewhere.

 

Others I don't really think it'll change that much.

 

I don't really like this new system because I think it benefits administration and less qualified students (yeah you can argue about how there's a lot of luck, but OVERALL, students accepted at one place and wait listed elsewhere are probably better applicants on average than students with no acceptances) at the expense of more qualified applicants.

 

It's really disingenuous to say that as long as you get into a medical school you shouldn't complain - different schools are NOT the same at all. U of T and Mac Med are radically different in terms of their teaching style, type of students they probably attract, the cities they are in, and even how long the programs are. Just because you got into one doesn't mean it's perfectly fair to kill your chances at the other school.

 

In effect, under this new system, it's entirely possible that an acceptance would be WORSE than a rejection. Let's say Bob interviewed at Mac & UT, he really wants to go to UT and is wait-listed there (he doesn't know, but he is very high up - say #5 or something). He is rejected at Mac and is called off the wait-list in June or something and goes to UT.

 

Now let's say same scenario, but he was accepted to Mac. Fearing not having a spot in med school at all, he accepts Mac, thereby giving up his wait-list spot at UT. Now he goes to Mac med.

 

Does a system where it can be BETTER for you to be rejected from a school than accepted make sense?

[chuck62]

ive got to say, it is a very frustrating feeling when someone says "you can't have your cake and eat it too" just because you get into one school (yes horay) but you'd prefer another and you loose the chance to hear from that school because of this new system that is in place...

I do realize that its important to be thrilled and recognize the wonderfullness that is getting accepted to one school, but most people have given alot of thought to which school is their first choice and why it is...its a shame to take away a students ability to end up in a school that they deem more fitting to their life style and learning styles.

I don't like this system at all. If they really wanted to quicken the process, why not just push up the date where "provisional becomes firm acceptance", so that sure you may have a bit less time to hear if you get off the waitlist, but atleast you're given that oppertunity.

[Guest viscous]

Haha, just read this topic while killing some time... a lot of discussion eh?

 

Here's my 2 cents:

 

This WILL make the wait-list move a lot faster - thus benefiting schools with respect to administrative work/being able to finalize their class lists pretty early.

 

This WILL benefit students who are wait listed ONLY with no acceptances.

 

This will HARM students who are wait listed at their top choice and accepted elsewhere.

 

Others I don't really think it'll change that much.

 

I don't really like this new system because I think it benefits administration and less qualified students (yeah you can argue about how there's a lot of luck, but OVERALL, students accepted at one place and wait listed elsewhere are probably better applicants on average than students with no acceptances) at the expense of more qualified applicants.

It's really disingenuous to say that as long as you get into a medical school you shouldn't complain - different schools are NOT the same at all. U of T and Mac Med are radically different in terms of their teaching style, type of students they probably attract, the cities they are in, and even how long the programs are. Just because you got into one doesn't mean it's perfectly fair to kill your chances at the other school.

 

In effect, under this new system, it's entirely possible that an acceptance would be WORSE than a rejection. Let's say Bob interviewed at Mac & UT, he really wants to go to UT and is wait-listed there (he doesn't know, but he is very high up - say #5 or something). He is rejected at Mac and is called off the wait-list in June or something and goes to UT.

 

Now let's say same scenario, but he was accepted to Mac. Fearing not having a spot in med school at all, he accepts Mac, thereby giving up his wait-list spot at UT. Now he goes to Mac med.

 

Does a system where it can be BETTER for you to be rejected from a school than accepted make sense?

 

How are you arguing that a student who got accepted at one school, and waitlisted at other is MORE qualified than the one who got accepted at only one? I'd say that if he/she was really ubber qualified, they would/should be accepted at both.

[medicant]

How are you arguing that a student who got accepted at one school, and waitlisted at other is MORE qualified than the one who got accepted at only one? I'd say that if he/she was really ubber qualified, they would/should be accepted at both.

 

You misread the quote. Try again.

[HBP]

Haha, just read this topic while killing some time... a lot of discussion eh?

 

Here's my 2 cents:

 

This WILL make the wait-list move a lot faster - thus benefiting schools with respect to administrative work/being able to finalize their class lists pretty early.

 

This WILL benefit students who are wait listed ONLY with no acceptances.

 

This will HARM students who are wait listed at their top choice and accepted elsewhere.

 

Others I don't really think it'll change that much.

 

I don't really like this new system because I think it benefits administration and less qualified students (yeah you can argue about how there's a lot of luck, but OVERALL, students accepted at one place and wait listed elsewhere are probably better applicants on average than students with no acceptances) at the expense of more qualified applicants.

 

It's really disingenuous to say that as long as you get into a medical school you shouldn't complain - different schools are NOT the same at all. U of T and Mac Med are radically different in terms of their teaching style, type of students they probably attract, the cities they are in, and even how long the programs are. Just because you got into one doesn't mean it's perfectly fair to kill your chances at the other school.

 

In effect, under this new system, it's entirely possible that an acceptance would be WORSE than a rejection. Let's say Bob interviewed at Mac & UT, he really wants to go to UT and is wait-listed there (he doesn't know, but he is very high up - say #5 or something). He is rejected at Mac and is called off the wait-list in June or something and goes to UT.

 

Now let's say same scenario, but he was accepted to Mac. Fearing not having a spot in med school at all, he accepts Mac, thereby giving up his wait-list spot at UT. Now he goes to Mac med.

 

Does a system where it can be BETTER for you to be rejected from a school than accepted make sense?

 

This is wrong. No system benefits someone who didn't get any acceptances! Tell the dude who got waitlisted everywhere that this system is better LOL. He'll say f*ck you, I'd rather have an acceptance ANYWHERE.

 

I agree about the harm to someone who is WLed at their top school though.

[Guest viscous]

You misread the quote. Try again.

 

I do not need to try again.

[medicant]

This is wrong. No system benefits someone who didn't get any acceptances! Tell the dude who got waitlisted everywhere that this system is better LOL. He'll say f*ck you, I'd rather have an acceptance ANYWHERE.

 

I agree about the harm to someone who is WLed at their top school though.

 

No, this system does benefit those who are wait-listed everyone because the vast majority of movement from the lists will happen much earlier this season. Now if you are the type of person who can't act until all the i's are dotted, then you will still be waiting with bated breath until August or whenever they close the lists. But others can start pulling their lives together earlier...No one is arguing its a significant improvement by any means, but it's better than the status quo for such applicants.

[HBP]

No, this system does benefit those who are wait-listed everyone because the vast majority of movement from the lists will happen much earlier this season. Now if you are the type of person who can't act until all the i's are dotted, then you will still be waiting with bated breath until August or whenever they close the lists. But others can start pulling their lives together earlier...No one is arguing its a significant improvement by any means, but it's better than the status quo for such applicants.

 

The end result is the same. Same amount of WL movement as there would ever be. Whether by June 12 or May 27, it doesn't make much of a difference.

 

Regardless, people are going to be waiting until mid August in this system as well. Last year the majority of movement occurred by the 12th of June. This year, it's by the 27th of May. Not a big deal.

[takashi]

If everyone must confirm their acceptances by May 27, what would cause any more wait-list movement after this date?

[HBP]

If everyone must confirm their acceptances by May 27, what would cause any more wait-list movement after this date?

 

not much

 

drop outs mainly. oop/international acceptance.

 

they'll all lose their deposits

[takashi]

I apologize for asking this question but I am not familiar with OOP schools. Are there OOP schools that waitlist movements that continue to August?

[future_doc]

YES! In Quebec the wait list continues and people get off it during the first week of med school. So, in our province, it goes on forever and there is movement even after classes begin.

 

And here, you are able to accept and still remain on waitlists.

[Cyradis]

The end result is the same. Same amount of WL movement as there would ever be. Whether by June 12 or May 27, it doesn't make much of a difference.

 

Regardless, people are going to be waiting until mid August in this system as well. Last year the majority of movement occurred by the 12th of June. This year, it's by the 27th of May. Not a big deal.

 

The benefit is not in whether you get into medical school. The benefit comes in knowing sooner - and it does matter if it's later - that time period is right around when people are making decisions for the next year, grad school, leases/renting a place, etc. etc.

 

I'm not claiming it's a HUGE advantage or anything, but it certainly does make a difference and as someone else said, it is better than last year's system for those people.

 

 

And Viscuous, you DO need to try again. You misread the quote (thanks Medicant); "How are you arguing that a student who got accepted at one school, and waitlisted at other is MORE qualified than the one who got accepted at only one? I'd say that if he/she was really ubber qualified, they would/should be accepted at both."

 

I was arguing that a student who got accepted at one and waitlisted at the other is more qualified than one who GOT WAITLISTED ONLY.

[medicant]

The benefit is not in whether you get into medical school. The benefit comes in knowing sooner - and it does matter if it's later - that time period is right around when people are making decisions for the next year, grad school, leases/renting a place, etc. etc.

 

I'm not claiming it's a HUGE advantage or anything, but it certainly does make a difference and as someone else said, it is better than last year's system for those people.

 

 

And Viscuous, you DO need to try again. You misread the quote (thanks Medicant); "How are you arguing that a student who got accepted at one school, and waitlisted at other is MORE qualified than the one who got accepted at only one? I'd say that if he/she was really ubber qualified, they would/should be accepted at both."

 

I was arguing that a student who got accepted at one and waitlisted at the other is more qualified than one who GOT WAITLISTED ONLY.

 

yup - I've got your back.

[The Law]

I agree completely, but there really isn't much that the Med schools do to suggest that they give the slightest bit of interest in the pursuits of the applicants. Once you get in they are excellent at being a support and information centre, but for pre-admission stuff they don't really leave you with a warm and fuzzy feeling.

 

It's pretty unfortunate. You would think they would want to minimize applicant stress. This is one relatively easy way people can get enough information to plan their futures.

[The Law]

actually this would be the one organization that could arrange for it, but it is not in their mandate currently. I won't be surprised though that if they did offer it that high fee is just going to increase further

 

Considering how much money people spend on applications, helping ease the stress of the process for applicants should definitely be in their mandate.

[bloh]

I don't really like this new system because I think it benefits administration and less qualified students (yeah you can argue about how there's a lot of luck, but OVERALL, students accepted at one place and wait listed elsewhere are probably better applicants on average than students with no acceptances) at the expense of more qualified applicants.

 

It's really disingenuous to say that as long as you get into a medical school you shouldn't complain - different schools are NOT the same at all. U of T and Mac Med are radically different in terms of their teaching style, type of students they probably attract, the cities they are in, and even how long the programs are. Just because you got into one doesn't mean it's perfectly fair to kill your chances at the other school.

 

In effect, under this new system, it's entirely possible that an acceptance would be WORSE than a rejection. Let's say Bob interviewed at Mac & UT, he really wants to go to UT and is wait-listed there (he doesn't know, but he is very high up - say #5 or something). He is rejected at Mac and is called off the wait-list in June or something and goes to UT.

 

Now let's say same scenario, but he was accepted to Mac. Fearing not having a spot in med school at all, he accepts Mac, thereby giving up his wait-list spot at UT. Now he goes to Mac med.

 

Does a system where it can be BETTER for you to be rejected from a school than accepted make sense?

 

Self-entitlement, self-entitlement and more self-entitlement. Can you have any less and perhaps a dash of compassion at all?

 

I think one of the biggest problems I will have in medicine is dealing with other self-entitled professionals; it is the biggest turnoff that I get from the profession.

[medicant]

Self-entitlement, self-entitlement and more self-entitlement. Can you have any less and perhaps a dash of compassion at all?

 

I think one of the biggest problems I will have in medicine is dealing with other self-entitled professionals; it is the biggest turnoff that I get from the profession.

 

We all have compassion up until the point where it has serious tangible effects on our careers. We would all be in favor of a system that betters the lives of those who were only wait-listed as long as it didn't have serious repercussions on us. The new system, however, will very likely lead applicants who otherwise would have gotten into their top choices to have to go elsewhere. We are right to think this unfair - we all have preferences, and we have all worked extremely hard for many, many years to reach this point.

 

There are alternatives that help everyone. We can require all applicants to respond within the two week period, but then give an additional two week period for accepted applicants to remain on the other wait-lists. This at least ensures that all of the initial responses will be tabulated in time to effectively admit the high ranking applicants, whatever that happens to mean. Said accepted individuals are removed from wait-lists after the two week period. For those who are wait-listed everywhere, the extra two weeks hardly seems like a big enough downside to not implement this. The school you go to will affect your life for 3-4 years. The schools may not differ much in curriculum, but they do differ significantly in location and student body feel. It is justified to have preferences and expect a reasonable system.

[bloh]

Two weeks is still too long of a time period. A substantial number of people get off their waitlist a mere month before class time. That is a very short period of time for people to relocate their life. If I had my way, I would give at most 72 hours for applicants to decide.

 

You have to realize that not everyone lives at home. I am literally sick to my stomach at the moment because I am on my own, my lease expires in several months and I have absolutely no idea where my life will take me in the next few months. Unless you've been in such a situation you have no idea what a terrible situation it is to be in. Will I be in school? What city will I be in? What job will I have? Will I have a job?

 

Put yourself in that situation and 2 weeks is a ****ing eternity.

 

To be honest, I can't even put into words how appalled I am that this thread even exists. Yes, we all have preferences but in the grand scheme of things they are minuscule.

[synch]

I don't live at home; I live alone and my lease expires in two months (before I officially finish grad school). I support myself.

 

That doesn't mean I think other people shouldn't have the opportunity to at least express their opinions about this new system. Nor do I think it means people shouldn't have the opportunity to make choices about the schools they'll attend.

 

I realise that waiting until August (if I'm even fortunate enough to be waitlisted) to find out where I'll be in September may cause some serious (and I mean SERIOUS) stress, practical trouble, and real upheaval. I also realise that I'm applying for MEDICAL SCHOOL; if I don't roll with the punches now, how am I going to be able to deal with the stress of the actual process of becoming a doctor?

 

Honestly, both arguments are a bit entitled. Either you think people shouldn't have the right to hang onto their waitlist spots because it benefits YOU, or you think you should have the right to hang onto your waitlist spots because it benefits YOU. Wrapping it up in the rhetoric of practicality doesn't change what's at the base of the argument.

[medicant]

Two weeks is still too long of a time period. A substantial number of people get off their waitlist a mere month before class time. That is a very short period of time for people to relocate their life. If I had my way, I would give at most 72 hours for applicants to decide.

 

You have to realize that not everyone lives at home. I am literally sick to my stomach at the moment because I am on my own, my lease expires in several months and I have absolutely no idea where my life will take me in the next few months. Unless you've been in such a situation you have no idea what a terrible situation it is to be in. Will I be in school? What city will I be in? What job will I have? Will I have a job?

 

Put yourself in that situation and 2 weeks is a ****ing eternity.

 

To be honest, I can't even put into words how appalled I am that this thread even exists. Yes, we all have preferences but in the grand scheme of things they are minuscule.

 

Listen, I empathize, but you are not the only one waiting and with feelings like this, though your situation may be approaching one extreme. No one knows they will get in somewhere, and therefore no one knows what they will be doing next year either. I, like you, do not have a contingency plan.

 

That does not mean I don't have preferences, however - preferences that I think I should be able to express in a reasonable timeframe. Perhaps you are right in that the initial time period in my plan is too long - if we have a brief period in which accepted individuals can stay on wait-lists, then there is no need to have a 2 week period to decide on acceptances. Fine, make it 3 days for all I care (though others with less defined preferences will surely object). The net time then is only just over two weeks, and seems much more fair, at least to me.

 

Moreover, this season is different, and your argument that some individuals might have to wait until a month before to hear back doesn't really hold a candle here. In my system, the majority of applicants will hear back by june 13th latest, roughly 2 months before they are expected to matriculate. The unlucky few who hear back later will be victims of late season drop-outs or switches that are more or less entirely due to circumstances unaffected by the policy under consideration (and therefore irrelevant to the discussion).

 

The entitlement argument is absurd. No, my preferences are not minuscule. They will have a relatively large effect on my life. This isn't choosing a flavor of ice cream or what clothes to wear for the day - this is serious.