MD/PhD students - do they really have a leg up on the rest of us?

[A-Stark]

MD/PhD folks are such a specialized, highly self-selected population to start with, that it's really impossible to know whether or how much the actual PhD helps vs if the same people had gone through medical school without the PhD. Throw in the highly idiosyncratic, unpredictable, name-dropping, and often random, nature of CaRMS, and you're really not going to get an answer to whether it really helps or not.

 

In the end, it doesn't matter all that much. People usually do MD/PhD either because they love research and want solid training, or because they want the prestige of a PhD. I don't think anyone does it simply to get a leg up in the CaRMS process because there are much, much, much easier ways to do that than to spend an extra 4 or more years of your life in the lab!!

 

Agreed. Though I'd go further and say that anyone who does a PhD for the "prestige" is nuts.

[cheech10]

So Carms admission commitee dont look at graduate degrees as a "demonstrated" interest in research?

 

It helps, but it's not the "silver bullet" that's going to guarantee acceptance that many people think it is.

[UTPEOPLE]

It helps, but it's not the "silver bullet" that's going to guarantee acceptance that many people think it is.

 

Not the type to think that its a silver bullet either, but some people seem to think that Md/Phd's make better physicians, and I never understood why.

[future_doc]

Simple - b/c they have the MD/PhD

[rogerroger]

So... I will preface this by disclosing that I am a 3rd yr medical student in the regular program.

 

I was chatting with an MD/PhD student who joined my class for clerkship. They said they were interested in specialty x and that they wouldn't back up b/c there was no/little fear of being unmatched. He/she said that MD/PhD's typically get their first choice and that if they were to go unmatched it would reflect poorly on the school.

 

Any opinions? Can't say that all the MD/PhD students I've met were superstars in the clinic but does the PhD really make them that much more attractive to residency programs?

 

Personally I can't figure out why anyone in their right mind would sign up for a MD/PhD program when there are clinician scientist programs during residency. By going the later route you get paid a residents salary while completing your grad work which is likely relevant to your specialty. That sounds way way better than paying to do a PhD in med school and getting ripped out of your class in second year to do research which may not even be about your future career etc.

 

Slight advantage come CaRMS? Maybe, would make some sense. But I would not make that advantage out to be overwhelming.

 

My two cents...

[Lactic Folly]

The timing of the PhD is important here. On average, people who take time out during medical school or residency to complete graduate degrees are more interested in a research career than people who finished their graduate studies prior to medical school (and may be intent on switching to a clinical career).

[A-Stark]

That makes sense; fortunately my existing degrees are more than sufficient for any kind of clinical research. I don't have any interest really in basic sciences research.

[TheOneTwoThree]

That makes sense; fortunately my existing degrees are more than sufficient for any kind of clinical research. I don't have any interest really in basic sciences research.

 

 

Depending on your medical interests (i.e. speciality) and the research subject ... the experience/perspective that a basic science MSc/Phd. gives you can are quite valuable. It can literally push your knowledge and understanding of the "basic science" of that field to the extreme. You will read hundreds of articles, listen to opposing views, have tons (maybe) of presentations, discussions, meet lots of highly skilled people in that field, etc... It is true that not everyone likes it, but for the people who do, it is a worthwhile experience IMO.

[A-Stark]

Oh, I can't rule it out entirely. My previous training was in biostats, however, and if it would take a fair bit of refreshing to function as a biostatistician again, my ability to read papers "critically" and understand/interpret epidemiological data wouldn't really be helped by, say, a Clin Epi masters. Anyway, I suppose it all depends on what kind of residency I end up in!

[dizzle]

It seems to be akin to asking, "Would doing a PhD improve my chances to enter medical school vs just a BSc?" Sure it might help to have an extra degree, but keep it mind it would take 5 years of your life to get that leg up -- Not to mention you need a passion in research and that field to actually keep yourself going everyday.

 

An MD/PhD might have an edge over just an MD, but as mentioned earlier in the thread, they already had to delay their matching for an additional 3 (UWO) to 5 (UofT) years to obtain that advantage. Is that something you'd be willing to sacrifice?

[LuuLuu421]

Well based on my class match it seems like the MD/PhDs in my class did not end up getting their first choices. So the belief that MD/PhDs always get their first choice is a bit if of folklore. It gives you an advantage but by no means guarantees you what you want.

[HBP]

Well based on my class match it seems like the MD/PhDs in my class did not end up getting their first choices. So the belief that MD/PhDs always get their first choice is a bit if of folklore. It gives you an advantage but by no means guarantees you what you want.

 

And they didn't back up?

[mattg]

also, just a comment on graduate degrees in general... i was talking to a bunch of residents/docs the other day who have served on admissions committees, regarding this exact question... essentially, what they said was "it's no secret that a lot people who have done masters before med school couldn't get in from undergrad"... this is not meant to insult anyone, i know there are people who do masters because they are interested in research, or not yet sure about medicine, etc., but it is naive do deny this is true to some degree... they were saying there is really no difference whatsoever between someone with a masters and someone without one, as long as both have demonstrated an interest in research and have published papers (which a lot of residency programs in academic centres like, but do not require)... maybe PhD's have a slight advantage for certain residencies, just because their research background is likely much stronger, but i don't think there is any significant difference between masters vs. non-masters applicants

[RiceWine]

also, just a comment on graduate degrees in general... i was talking to a bunch of residents/docs the other day who have served on admissions committees, regarding this exact question... essentially, what they said was "it's no secret that a lot people who have done masters before med school couldn't get in from undergrad"... this is not meant to insult anyone, i know there are people who do masters because they are interested in research, or not yet sure about medicine, etc., but it is naive do deny this is true to some degree... they were saying there is really no difference whatsoever between someone with a masters and someone without one, as long as both have demonstrated an interest in research and have published papers (which a lot of residency programs in academic centres like, but do not require)... maybe PhD's have a slight advantage for certain residencies, just because their research background is likely much stronger, but i don't think there is any significant difference between masters vs. non-masters applicants

 

i sort of agree. it is how much you publish regardless what degree you have prior to your MD.....

[LuuLuu421]

Yeah they ended up matching fine, I just knew that it wasn't their first choices. I guess it really does kind of suck because you left your classmates for 3-4 years in order to earn a PhD and still not necessarily get what you want.

[mattg]

well they got to do 3-4 years of research, which presumably they enjoy... otherwise going into the md/phd program was a bad choice

[NewfieMike]

Yeah they ended up matching fine, I just knew that it wasn't their first choices. I guess it really does kind of suck because you left your classmates for 3-4 years in order to earn a PhD and still not necessarily get what you want.

 

they obviously didn't do a PhD in hopes to get their first pick

[MarathonRunner]

People don't go into MD/PhD for "status" or prestige. They go into it because they like research and dream of an academic career where they can do lots of research and really contribute to their field of interest. However, I know lots of people who strive for an MD mostly because of the presitge.

 

This. I even know one pre-med who hates being around sick people yet plans on applying for med school this summer! I don't understand that at all. I mean, sure, this person could attempt to eventually match into one of the specialties with limited amount of patient contact, but that person still has to get through clerkship and the residency, where there will certainly be contact with people who are ill! For this individual, it is all about the prestige. It makes me sad to think this person might actually make it into med school.

[apache]

i know a guy in the md/phd program and i couldn't agree more, he eats, breaths, and lives research! giving up 4+ years of clinical salary to do a phd... you definitely want to do research, it's not about titles. i think a lot more people who get their phd first and then apply to med are more likely to tend to do it for prestige and in order to avoid a career in research than their counterparts who do a combined degree.

 

People don't go into MD/PhD for "status" or prestige. They go into it because they like research and dream of an academic career where they can do lots of research and really contribute to their field of interest. However, I know lots of people who strive for an MD mostly because of the presitge.

[osteon]

... i think a lot more people who get their phd first and then apply to med are more likely to tend to do it for prestige and in order to avoid a career in research than their counterparts who do a combined degree.

 

I totally disagree. Do you really think people say "I want to do an MD, but I'll avoid even applying right now so I can do a PhD first to look prestigious once I start classes"? That's absurd. Some do the PhD first so they don't have to interrupt their MD training; some do the PhD first thinking they want a career in research only, and then realize near the end that they want to supplement their research with a clinical aspect. Plus, to do a PhD first you normally need to have a Master's first. After doing a Master's, you know if you like research or not, so you're probably not going to start a PhD unless you want to include research in your career in some way. Going the MD/PhD route is maybe a different story since you can get in to it out of undergrad.

 

Also, the 4 year wait for the PhD is not an issue in terms of money. I know a few MD, PhDs who are filthy loaded now, making more than an MD would make on their own. Most have full time faculty appointments at universities and have their own clinic/hospital schedules as well. Kind of like the salary of two jobs.

[Gunner10]

People don't go into MD/PhD for "status" or prestige. They go into it because they like research and dream of an academic career where they can do lots of research and really contribute to their field of interest. However, I know lots of people who strive for an MD mostly because of the presitge.

 

I definitely agree with this. The reason to do MD/PhD should be that it gives you a well-rounded understanding of a certain field, both academically and clinically-speaking (if you choose to do your residency in that field as well). I, too, know of people who are in med school who don't like sick people and it becomes apparent that for some, a reason to pursue an MD is prestige. You don't do a PhD for prestige - the amount of motivation it takes to work those 60 hour weeks and continue running experiments when half of them don't work for 4-5 years has to be a sign of commitment to research/academia.

 

Also, the exposure you get to the research process and the academic community is significantly enhanced doing a PhD as opposed to undergrad research/doing a master's. A solid MD/PhD student who has numerous first-author pubs, has traveled to various international conferences, given talks, etc. is going to have an advantage (I'd think) over a pure MD who finished med school at a younger age who sprinkled some research in during undergrad or during med school (if they somehow found the time to fit that in) with no first-authored pubs. Of course how you are as a clerk and your refs matter, and to get matched without having done well in those areas isn't going to happen no matter what degrees you offer, but if all else is equal, I do think the MD/PhD has an advantage.

 

That's just my 2 cents though.

[apache]

what i meant to say was that the person decides after they finnish their phd that they want the prestige, not when they finnish undergrad

 

I totally disagree. Do you really think people say "I want to do an MD, but I'll avoid even applying right now so I can do a PhD first to look prestigious once I start classes"? That's absurd. Some do the PhD first so they don't have to interrupt their MD training; some do the PhD first thinking they want a career in research only, and then realize near the end that they want to supplement their research with a clinical aspect. Plus, to do a PhD first you normally need to have a Master's first. After doing a Master's, you know if you like research or not, so you're probably not going to start a PhD unless you want to include research in your career in some way. Going the MD/PhD route is maybe a different story since you can get in to it out of undergrad.

 

Also, the 4 year wait for the PhD is not an issue in terms of money. I know a few MD, PhDs who are filthy loaded now, making more than an MD would make on their own. Most have full time faculty appointments at universities and have their own clinic/hospital schedules as well. Kind of like the salary of two jobs.

[osteon]

what i meant to say was that the person decides after they finnish their phd that they want the prestige, not when they finnish undergrad

 

Again, not true in most cases. Look at the admission statistics of any med school and you'll find that only 1-2 or even zero people get in each year with an already conferred PhD. Why? It's because 99% of PhD's don't even care about med school. An MD is not considered prestigious in the research world. A PhD is; they still have the Doctor title so many don't care to get the extra MD letters. The ones that do get in are likely getting in for the reason's I pointed out in my post above. Someone with an already conferred PhD is a researcher first and formost. They do the MD because they're interested in that area, want to gain a better understanding for something, want to do research from a more clinical perspective, or just don't want to do research every day of the week. I guarantee that 99% of these people are not doing it for prestige.

 

Really, i dont think anyone going the MD/PhD route is looking for prestige, but if I had to give an answer as to who's more likely to seek prestige out of someone who already has a PhD, or an undergrad who is applying MD/PhD, it's the undergrad. The undergrad, despite the summer NSERCs or whatever they may have, has no true understanding of what research is, what a PhD means and how much work is involved in getting it. Since undergrads are allowed directly into MD/PhD's, probably more likely to find a kid in this situation who says "yeah I'll do the double doctor thing; get me a good residency spot, and make me look good in front of my MD classmates."

[cheech10]

Also, the 4 year wait for the PhD is not an issue in terms of money. I know a few MD, PhDs who are filthy loaded now, making more than an MD would make on their own. Most have full time faculty appointments at universities and have their own clinic/hospital schedules as well. Kind of like the salary of two jobs.

 

Actually, it can be a very big issue. One loses 4-5 years of peak earnings (the residency is the same length for both), and the remuneration is less. On average, academic physicians get ~30% less than their community counterparts. This discrepancy gets worse for those doing less clinical work, like many research focused MD/PhDs. The way it works is that a portion (eg. 30%) of the billings for all the docs in an academic unit get paid into a practice plan, and these billings are redistributed to the staff according to their academic work. Because some staff (especially older staff) do little clinical work, this fund is not as large as a similar community group would bill, so the academic work one does is often poorly remunerated. It also takes up time that would otherwise be used for clinical work, another hit in income. Finally, one community doc can usually see more patients in a given time period than an academic doc who is supervising residents/students, so fewer billings are generated. Some provinces give extra money to academic docs to try and bring their incomes closer in line to the community docs, but it doesn't quite cover it.

[cardiomegaly]

MD/PhD is definitely not a popular route at our school. There are at least 5 funded positions being pushed on our year but for the most part people who want competitive specialties are doing research for program directors and other "influential" persons in that particular field, rather than taking the insanely long way to a second Dr. title.

 

We had one student do MD/PhD in our year, only because they had one more year to complete the degree and did not have to take the huge gap between preclinical and clerkship. Can you imagine trying to succeed in clerkship after spending 5 years studying something unrelated in crazy detail?? CIP is definitely the better way to go if you want to be an academic physician with research. Get a resident's salary for your masters and moonlight like crazy.