Terrorists caught across Ottawa, London...one's a Doctor.

[axel]

so in the same post you say a religion should be judged by its followers not by its religious texts, but also post half a dozen quotes from the quran to support your argument that islam is violent. as for those statistics you posted, i highly doubt their validity.

 

haha, that post is not mine. It's a bunch of people's posts including mine. Also, those statistics aren't posted by me, they're by other's and pretty valid..

 

Say what you will, but it's no secret the quran is a dangerous, intolerant and overly aggressive book.

[thebouque]

Islam is still a very young religion. Give it time to grow. It's not intrinsically worse than any other religion, it's just younger. LMAO christianism had (and still has sometimes but less than it used to) its share of violence: crusades, inquisition... Give it time to grow and it will get older and wiser.

[medguy5367]

Islam is still a very young religion. Give it time to grow. It's not intrinsically worse than any other religion, it's just younger. LMAO christianism had (and still has sometimes but less than it used to) it's share of violence: crusades, inquisition... Give it time to grow and it get older and wiser.

 

You do realize that Islam means following the unchanging and unalterable Word of God, as outlined in the Quran?

[Guest viscous]

You do realize that Islam means following the unchanging and unalterable Word of God, as outlined in the Quran?

 

ooh wow, a self-proclaimed atheist does know something about Islam.

[thebouque]

You do realize that Islam means following the unchanging and unalterable Word of God, as outlined in the Quran?

 

So does every other religion

[medguy5367]

ooh wow, a self-proclaimed atheist does know something about Islam.

 

"Self-proclaimed atheist"?

 

 

As opposed to a baptized atheist?

[medguy5367]

So does every other religion

 

You missed my point entirely. How can Islam "grow older and wiser" if it is unchangeable and unalterable?

[Doc2Law]

I'm pretty sure you're 15, maybe 16 max. lol

 

Anyway, here's some stuff you should read (but can't answer...because the quran is untenable)

 

medguy:

Aren't these quotes from the Quran?

 

 

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

 

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

 

Sura72:15 “The disbelievers are the firewood of hell.”

 

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush." (Sura 9:5)

 

2:216 “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not."

 

“I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.” (Qur'an 8:12)

 

“Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are ruthless to the Unbelievers, but merciful to each other.” (Qur'an 48:29)

 

"But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."(22:19-22)

 

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah… (8:39)"

 

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty." (9:123)

 

 

And I wonder if these are ALL taken "out of context"...

 

Also, let's not forget that the "Prophet" Muhammad had sexual intercourse with a nine-year-old child.

 

 

mdDave: This is such a typical and lame defense of Islam (or other religions for that matter). "You need the context" or "You need to read it in arabic". Ok forget it, let's look at what actual muslims believe: 68% of AMERICAN muslims want to see the death penalty implemented for homosexuals. 2 out of 5 british muslims think jews are a legitimate target for them. 40% of them also want to see shariah law implemented in GB.

If I'm misinterpreting the Quran, than apparently so are a lot of muslims and in the end that's what matters. The religion is defined by it's believers, not it's holy books IMO. Sure there are violent verses in the Bible or the Talmud that could promote terrorism or violence but you know what? IT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

 

BTW sfinch in the future please don't try to compare those who oppose radical islam to nazis. It's weak. Besides, It's me who's opposed to the ideology which believers elected Ahmedinejad who want's to see another holocaust happen as he said himself.

 

 

Why do you keep emphasizing the fact that the Canadian population of muslims are not all terrorists that want to blow up everybody around them.

 

We know this and accept it.

 

Look at the whole picture. The quran will make any person who follows it slowly but surely opposed to homos and jews and intolerant to other religions. OF COURSE this doesn't mean they'll ALL want to behead every homo they see, but some will (islamic countries) and some will just dislike them a bit (some western muslims)

.

The problem is the theology is rooted in causing this intolerance. This intolerance ranges from disliking jews to not treating them equally to opposing building of synagogues (dearborn michigan) to violently opposing peace-parades by jews (USA/Europehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19qRD3MDpk8) to actually physically assaulting them (EUROPE: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html) to wanting to blow them up (islamic countries)!

Now this whole spectrum is rooted in the Quran. The verses of the quran.. they're a problem.

 

Argue all you want, but it's there for everybody to see. Every canadian, american and european is beginning to know the problem with the quran. We've seen plenty of evidence from over the past few years covering almost every corner of the world and ranging from the smallest to the biggest incidents.

 

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

 

There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to this verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.

 

 

Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

 

This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

 

 

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

 

"People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmxA0OYTDy0

 

 

Someone else answered for me, i guess the French speakers of this forum will laugh.

[Doctor_Strangelove]

I'm pretty sure you're 15, maybe 16 max. lol

 

Anyway, here's some stuff you should read (but can't answer...because the quran is untenable)

 

medguy:

Aren't these quotes from the Quran?

 

 

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

 

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

 

Sura72:15 “The disbelievers are the firewood of hell.”

 

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush." (Sura 9:5)

 

2:216 “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not."

 

“I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.” (Qur'an 8:12)

 

“Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are ruthless to the Unbelievers, but merciful to each other.” (Qur'an 48:29)

 

"But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."(22:19-22)

 

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah… (8:39)"

 

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty." (9:123)

 

 

And I wonder if these are ALL taken "out of context"...

 

Also, let's not forget that the "Prophet" Muhammad had sexual intercourse with a nine-year-old child.

 

 

mdDave: This is such a typical and lame defense of Islam (or other religions for that matter). "You need the context" or "You need to read it in arabic". Ok forget it, let's look at what actual muslims believe: 68% of AMERICAN muslims want to see the death penalty implemented for homosexuals. 2 out of 5 british muslims think jews are a legitimate target for them. 40% of them also want to see shariah law implemented in GB.

If I'm misinterpreting the Quran, than apparently so are a lot of muslims and in the end that's what matters. The religion is defined by it's believers, not it's holy books IMO. Sure there are violent verses in the Bible or the Talmud that could promote terrorism or violence but you know what? IT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

 

BTW sfinch in the future please don't try to compare those who oppose radical islam to nazis. It's weak. Besides, It's me who's opposed to the ideology which believers elected Ahmedinejad who want's to see another holocaust happen as he said himself.

 

 

Why do you keep emphasizing the fact that the Canadian population of muslims are not all terrorists that want to blow up everybody around them.

 

We know this and accept it.

 

Look at the whole picture. The quran will make any person who follows it slowly but surely opposed to homos and jews and intolerant to other religions. OF COURSE this doesn't mean they'll ALL want to behead every homo they see, but some will (islamic countries) and some will just dislike them a bit (some western muslims)

.

The problem is the theology is rooted in causing this intolerance. This intolerance ranges from disliking jews to not treating them equally to opposing building of synagogues (dearborn michigan) to violently opposing peace-parades by jews (USA/Europehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19qRD3MDpk8) to actually physically assaulting them (EUROPE: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html) to wanting to blow them up (islamic countries)!

Now this whole spectrum is rooted in the Quran. The verses of the quran.. they're a problem.

 

Argue all you want, but it's there for everybody to see. Every canadian, american and european is beginning to know the problem with the quran. We've seen plenty of evidence from over the past few years covering almost every corner of the world and ranging from the smallest to the biggest incidents.

 

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

 

There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to this verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.

 

 

Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

 

This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

 

 

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

 

"People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years.

 

“Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence” (Leviticus 18:22) and “If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death—their bloodguilt is upon them” (Leviticus 20:13)

 

Oh wait! the Torah forbids homosexuality too! It's not going so well for you axel.

[axel]

HEY, check out ACTUAL FOOTAGE of what goes in a mosque!! AWESOME! :

.

 

When you watch what sometimes goes on in religious settings, then you realize why so many terrorists are of the same religion regardless of their ethnicities, backgrounds and culture.

 

This is an excellent documentary of undercover videos in three of Britain's most influential, large and commonly-labelled progressive mosques (London Central Mosque, Green Lane Mosque Birmingham and some islamic centres):

.

 

Full list:

* Markazi Jamiat Ahl-e-Hadith ,

* UK Islamic Mission

* London Central Mosque and Islamic Cultural Centre in Regent's Park

* Green Lane Mosque, Birmingham

* Ahl-e-Hadith mosque, in Derby

* UKIM's Sparkbrook Islamic Centre, Birmingham

* King Fahad Academy

* Muslim World League.

 

 

These mosques are in no way outliers. They're major mosques. The documentary was made after the array of terrorist attacks in England.

 

I believe many positive and good things are taught and propogated in these mosques. The video is obviously showing mostly the controversial or bad.

[thebouque]

You missed my point entirely. How can Islam "grow older and wiser" if it is unchangeable and unalterable?

 

I don't think I missed it. Every religion is intrinsically unchangeable and unalterable since it is based on a book that cannot be edited. However, the way a religion is interpreted changes with time. A young religion can be practiced with more fanaticism than an older one.

[Doctor_Strangelove]

HEY, check out ACTUAL FOOTAGE of what goes in a mosque!! AWESOME! :

.

 

When you watch what sometimes goes on in religious settings, then you realize why so many terrorists are of the same religion regardless of their ethnicities, backgrounds and culture.

 

This is an excellent documentary of undercover videos in three of Britain's most influential, large and commonly-labelled progressive mosques (London Central Mosque, Green Lane Mosque Birmingham and some islamic centres):

.

 

Full list:

* Markazi Jamiat Ahl-e-Hadith ,

* UK Islamic Mission

* London Central Mosque and Islamic Cultural Centre in Regent's Park

* Green Lane Mosque, Birmingham

* Ahl-e-Hadith mosque, in Derby

* UKIM's Sparkbrook Islamic Centre, Birmingham

* King Fahad Academy

* Muslim World League.

 

 

These mosques are in no way outliers. They're major mosques. The documentary was made after the array of terrorist attacks in England.

 

I believe many positive and good things are taught and propogated in these mosques. The video is obviously showing mostly the controversial or bad.

 

Buddy what do you fail to understand. I don't CARE what people are doing now with the religion, my problem is that you keep singling Islam as though it's the outlier, when it is no different and sometimes as retarded as the other religions.

 

It just so happened that certain Muslims were pushed into extremism and started taking the verses of the Koran literally. Believe me, the SAME thing has happened with religion. Remember the crusades?

[Doc2Law]

I think i see why he hates muslims that much...

 

An arabic person stole his girl friend. Now he's pissed.

[Guest viscous]

I don't think I missed it. Every religion is intrinsically unchangeable and unalterable since it is based on a book that cannot be edited. However, the way a religion is interpreted changes with time. A young religion can be practiced with more fanaticism than an older one.

 

aaah another ignorant nut. ever heard of historical studies of religious texts? Bible has been edited ad infinitum. Read bart ehrman's Misquoting Jesus.

[mdDave]

aaah another ignorant nut. ever heard of historical studies of religious texts? Bible has been edited ad infinitum. Read bart ehrman's Misquoting Jesus.

 

that's why Christians today are not a bunch of savages

[axel]

Wow, if the quran was edited to make it more tolerant and peaceful, enormous problems of the world would be solved..

[Guest viscous]

Wow, if the quran was edited to make it more tolerant and peaceful, enormous problems of the world would be solved..

 

You could try perhaps. Seems someone already tried in the US by publishing the The True Furqan. But epic fail. Edit it and you should get admission without interview into med school.

[Guest viscous]

that's why Christians today are not a bunch of savages

 

but atheists are right?

[Tango Charlie]

Wow, if the quran was edited to make it more tolerant and peaceful, enormous problems of the world would be solved..

 

Hey, the editors of Conservepedia are rewriting the Bible to get rid of "obvious liberal errors and additions" they feel Jesus never said or did and were snuck in later on by LIEBERALS.

 

Seriously though: http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project And this Conservapedia isn't a joke website either. These people are actually trying to be serious.

 

So, if they can go and edit the bible to make it more evil (as removing the "liberal" parts invariably means Jesus will wind up a racist and a mean jerk) I think it should be alright to edit the qur'an and make it contain less crazy nonsense.

[ToHellInAHandbasket]

Their was the military psychiatrist in the US who killed people and the terrorist at a UK airport who was a physician.

 

So, educated people, including physicians, go nuts too, just like the rest of the population can.

 

!

 

I'm sure there's going to be a nasty debate here on this thread;haven't read that far (leave me out of it I'm neutral-I'm against violence, not religion), but here's my 2 cents....

 

Why should any of us assume those who become (suspected) terrorists "go nuts"?

 

Although it's not unheard of for psychiatrists to lose it and eventually become patients themselves. Can you imagine being the only sane person in the room all day? And perhaps anyone who attempts to go through med school is nuts to begin with.... But I digress...

 

Let's assume a percentage of Muslims interpret the Qu'ran in an extremist fashion from day 1. Including those born in Canada free to practice their religion here in any way they see fit. Seeing Westerners as an evil force that must be killed may be "normal" for them. Just like it's "normal" and accepted for some cultures to kill baby girls when the family wants a boy. Or mutilate a females genitals. It's not necessarily mental illness per se, it's a (barbaric) cultural/religious "norm" for this group. Their whole plan may have been to get a well paying job in order to fund whatever terrorist activities they desire, all while flying under the radar as a model citizen. Any "Western" activities simply were to blend in. All part of the game plan.

 

Granted I know only a handful of Muslims (very peaceful people), but I also know that strict Muslims take their religion and duty to serve very seriously. Becoming a doctor and saving lives could be seen as simply one route to a religious role one must fill. It also pays well (remember that this guy likely didn't plan on being caught, a common mistake of the overconfident criminal) to sustain further attacks, and most people still hold a physician in high regard as a peaceful respected member of the community. Good strategy. To sum it up, we never really know what's going on in other's minds, or who people really are. And I don't think there will ever be a way to know. Extremist forms of religion have always caused terror and mayhem, and now Canada is simply seeing what other countries have been for some time.

 

I think that as more and more terrorists are caught, Canadians are going to be mighty surprised at the occupations these people will be in.

 

This is my personal opinion, sorry if this offends anyone, that was not the intent. Also, I am fully aware that in some cases (I.e the shoebomber, a Muslim convert), the person really did seem to "snap". My only explanation in those cases is that the person was always mentally unstable/ill and like many with mental illness, focused obsessively on religion as part of their illness. Strict Islam is very structured and possibly attracts those looking for recognition through jihad (grandiosity?), so perhaps it tends to appeal to these types. So it appears as though terrorists likely fall into a least 2 distinct groups. The first group does not involve mental instability, whereas the second group does. The inherent issue is with the first group, as they are not as easy to spot. Another issue is, when we have doubts about someone, how much religious "tolerance" do we allow before our suspicions are raised enough to question it? In Canada, there is no justification for violence, and that trumps any personal interpretation of any religious text.

 

End ramblings.

[Tango Charlie]

Anyone who'd work as a physician, moonwalk to Avril Lavigne on national television, and then plan to murder a large number of innocent Canadians is "nuts" in some sense of the word.

[thebouque]

Anyone who'd work as a physician, moonwalk to Avril Lavigne on national television, and then plan to murder a large number of innocent Canadians is "nuts" in some sense of the word.

 

Man you're so right that pathology is a sweet specialty though. It is! And it's very underrated.

[Renoir]

Really good atricle today in the Globe and Mail - Can Liberal Arts education stop jihadists?

 

The gist is that we are turning into a (Post-sec) society that is highly technical, and deals little with the lib arts i.e. feeling compassion for other people's situations and stories. They say that if the modern student can feel the characters in war and peace or Ibsen's doll's house, they should be able to be sensitive to other cultures/people's problems, et cetera.

 

There was lot of mention of Med students in the article, and much of it dealt with the ust for power or theyearning for true 'belonging', only to be dispelled by discovering the very 'average' lifestyle and job of a physician, which would lead to these persons plotting attacks, or murdering hookers...

 

Anyways, interesting, have a look, not sure how I feel yet. I'm definitely disillusioned that we don't have secret clubs with rings and special handshakes, and sacrfice virgins on a long weekend, but meh, at least I'll have the respect of everyone around me, right? Right guys?!?! </sarcasm>

[Tango Charlie]

Really good atricle today in the Globe and Mail - Can Liberal Arts education stop jihadists?

 

Interesting thought. Lot's of people are definitely dissatisfied with how mundane life sort of becomes once you've arrived at your career destination. I imagine lot's of folks who believe the conspiracy horse****, how 9/11 was an inside job and all that, those people are probably the kind of people who wish the world were more like what they see in movies, where there's really crazy and strange stuff going on behind the scenes, rather than everything being basically as you'd expect.

 

As for whether that's the cure, I dunno, I doubt it. Personally, I think our whole system is horribly flawed. We have an extremely competitive and elitist society. It can be tremendously exclusive and judgmental, and as you can see by this thread, we have no shortage of *******s who will do their best to try and alienate groups of people they don't personally like, whether through racism or bigotry or some other form of negative stereotyping and prejudice. I wish we had a culture where kids didn't feel like they were living on the fringe, and didn't get driven to shoot up their classmates. Or commit suicide when people taunt them for not being pretty enough or whatever. The problems that create people who want to kill civilians for no real reason run very deep, I think.

 

Man you're so right that pathology is a sweet specialty though. It is! And it's very underrated.

 

I know it is. By far the most fun I had in my paramedic training was getting to spend a day watching autopsies being done by our local forensic pathologist. Pathology stole my hear that day, and so did Dr. Queen.

[Doc2Law]

I imagine lot's of folks who believe the conspiracy horse****, how 9/11 was an inside job and all that, those people are probably the kind of people who wish the world were more like what they see in movies, where there's really crazy and strange stuff going on behind the scenes, rather than everything being basically as you'd expect.

 

There's no real proof that 9/11 was an inside job, but there's also no real proof that 9/11 wasn't an inside job.

 

The official report is known to be flawed and full of biased informations.

 

But let's not take any sides, we don't know 100% of the truth.