Terrorists caught across Ottawa, London...one's a Doctor.

[Tango Charlie]

There's no real proof that 9/11 was an inside job, but there's also no real proof that 9/11 wasn't an inside job.

 

There's no real proof that Russell's teapot is floating between Earth and Mars, but there's no real proof it isn't either.

 

The burden of proof isn't on everyone else to prove it wasn't a conspiracy. That's impossible, just as disproving the teapot is. The burden of proof is on the conspiracy theorists to demonstrate their claims hold any water, and to this date they do not. Therefore, like any good skeptic, we should go where the evidence takes us while still keeping an open mind, but nonetheless not buying that snake oil just because it's wrapped in a crispy anti-establishment shell. We may not know for 100% certainty, but what in life can we truly say we are 100% certain on? It's hardly incorrect to take a side on something that at this time is so cut-and-dry.

[future_doc]

There's no real proof that Russell's teapot is floating between Earth and Mars, but there's no real proof it isn't either.

 

The burden of proof isn't on everyone else to prove it wasn't a conspiracy. That's impossible, just as disproving the teapot is. The burden of proof is on the conspiracy theorists to demonstrate their claims hold any water, and to this date they do not. Therefore, like any good skeptic, we should go where the evidence takes us while still keeping an open mind

 

^^common sense

[Doctor_Strangelove]

Anyone who'd work as a physician, moonwalk to Avril Lavigne on national television, and then plan to murder a large number of innocent Canadians is "nuts" in some sense of the word.

 

Either nuts, or has been brainwashed.

[future_doc]

How stupid, a Minister of a Church in US plans to commemorate 9/11 by burning the Qur'an......can you imagine the backlash around the world and where the Americans are fighting.

 

All, I guess, in the name of religion that supposedly promotes love, tolerance and understanding of mankind.

 

Seems to turn the world upside down, sort of like if physicians decided to do harm to people instead of healing.

[Tango Charlie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVHims5VqZk

 

CNN interview with the guy. Don't look down at the comments, there's a lot of swearing and such there.

 

The guy is a big tool. "Our message is not a message of hate", says the guys who's preparing to burn religious documents of a rival religion. And if you read about it a bit more, there are various protests going on where US flags are being burned (more) and so forth. But it's OK that his actions may cause US (and Canadian) soldiers to be killed by an upswing in anti-West attitude such a thing might cause, he's praying about it.

[future_doc]

How quickly ministers of the Almighty turn to stirring up hatred which inevitably will lead to loss of life.....and retaliation. Isn't relgion truly great when carried to excess?

[axel]

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=25885

 

Slightly radical muslims burn bibles also.

 

Both the muslims who burn bibles and the radical christians who burn qurans are insensitive and just.. well.. stupid.

 

If they'd put in a sincere effort to rationally explain the intolerance and aggression the quran promotes, the effect produced would be exponentially better than burning a quran like an animal.

[mdDave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVHims5VqZk

 

CNN interview with the guy. Don't look down at the comments, there's a lot of swearing and such there.

 

The guy is a big tool. "Our message is not a message of hate", says the guys who's preparing to burn religious documents of a rival religion. And if you read about it a bit more, there are various protests going on where US flags are being burned (more) and so forth. But it's OK that his actions may cause US (and Canadian) soldiers to be killed by an upswing in anti-West attitude such a thing might cause, he's praying about it.

 

although the event in itself is unnecessary, one of the core values of the United States is freedom of expression. We cannot just kiss terrorist ass and hope they will leave our troops alone. If someone gets killed, it's the killers fault and no one elses.

[Tango Charlie]

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=25885

 

Slightly radical muslims burn bibles also.

 

Both the muslims who burn bibles and the radical christians who burn qurans are insensitive and just.. well.. stupid.

 

If they'd put in a sincere effort to rationally explain the intolerance and aggression the quran promotes, the effect produced would be exponentially better than burning a quran like an animal.

 

Well, they burn bibles, American (and probably Canadian I imagine) flags, effigies of world leaders, and so forth. I mean, there were demonstrations in many Islamic states around the world celebrating 9/11. So I'd hate to be misconstrued as trying to paint those folks as the sympathetic victims here. They are stupid as hell, to be sure, and I'm definitely not saying that we should back down. When those Danish cartoons were printed, and people were being murdered by Muslim idiots who think a picture justifies homicide, I was appalled that virtually all our own publications were too cowardly to reprint the cartoons in support of that Danish paper and its right to freedom of speech. Bowing to the whims of savages for fear of the violence they may do is the one way that we will lose this so-called War on Terror.

 

although the event in itself is unnecessary, one of the core values of the United States is freedom of expression. We cannot just kiss terrorist ass and hope they will leave our troops alone. If someone gets killed, it's the killers fault and no one elses.

 

Nobody supports their right to burn whatever works of fiction they so choose more than Yours Truly. I'm all about what they call First Amendment rights, and I was seriously unhappy when our own government restricted our right to freedom of speech a few years ago. I think they have the right to burn books, but similarly it lacks tact to do so. So while they have the right, I still think they ought not to do it.

 

It's like Dr. Laura Schlessinger, who is an American radio personality who revealed herself as a racist ***** recently when talking to a black caller. I think Laura had the right to say what she said, but she was also fair game to be criticized and called out as being a bit of an idiot for saying the things she said. Dr. Laura quit her job as a result, and said, on Larry King, that she was going to "try and regain her First Amendment rights". Well, those rights don't prevent you from being criticized. So too should this pastor, Terry Jones, being kind of a douchebag, not expect to be immune from criticism.

 

Militarily, as a soldier myself and with a lot of friends serving in the 'ghan right now, I'm concerned for their safety if this guy does what he wants to do and they react, but at the same time, anyone who would instigate violence against our soldiers over this deserves to be killed, and I can only hope that if Afghani citizens take up arms against our soldiers because of one American dildo, that our guys massacre them. Afghanistan would be a better place without those reactionary *******s, anyway.

[future_doc]

This verbal terrorist is going to cause deaths as a result of his ill-conceived stupidity and lack of judgment. I guess lives are unimportant to him just an unknown point he wants to make.

[tennisball]

What islam DOES tolerate...

 

[future_doc]

All religions have fanatics who are on the fringe or extremists.

 

The religions are not to be judged by such people.

[Tango Charlie]

The good news is that those feelings about women and such are mainly cultural, and through tolerance we can assimilate the bad parts out of them and inculcate them with the kind of ideals that we ourselves hold. It's no good to single out Muslims because it interferes with that process, making them think we're against them regardless of their person, simply due to their religious persuasion. That gets us nowhere. Tolerance and respect, in a generation or two, will create Muslim Canadians who are virtually indistinguishable from Christian Canadians. And maybe even some of them will wake up and go atheist. And that's good enough for me, but we only get there through tolerance. Obviously there'll always be some bad apples, but they're subject to the law like any other, and our legal and law enforcement system is more than capable of handling the few who stray from the path.

[tennisball]

[future_doc]

Tolerance and respect

 

This is the way.

[mdDave]

^ I agree, muslims should be more tolerant of Jews or any other religions

[future_doc]

All religions and religious leaders should be more tolerant and respectful of other religions and their religious leaders.

[Tango Charlie]

^ I agree, muslims should be more tolerant of Jews or any other religions

 

And Christians and Jews are so far beyond reproach themselves, aren't they?

 

This is getting pretty retarded.

[Leon]

Seriously guys, I don't think this is going anywhere after 200+ posts. Why not just stop posting and let this one sink.

[future_doc]

Regarding the inflammatory, intended burning of the Koran - on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks - in Florida by the pastor of a tiny, fringe religious group of 50 members, the pastor says it is not a message of hate, rather a message of warning. He claims that radical Islam is evil. And he is gaining noteriety and publicity otherwise unavailable by, in effect, threatening hate and evil himself. The consequences of his potential eveil deed have no boundaries and will likely be the springboard for many deaths.

 

The Arab world sees this with alarm, as a ferocious and unprecedented attack on Islam.

 

Reprisals are threatened as the hype escalates.

 

 

Canada has condemned this potential burning, as has Sectretary of State Clinton, calling it disrespectful and disgraceful.

[mdDave]

Alright well as stated before by someone this doesn't seem to be going anywhere with the lack of good arguments on one side and with the level of personal attacks by what seem to be brainwashed 12 year olds telling people to get laid or telling me I would murder muslims if I had the chance.

 

So screw this, time is on my side anyway. 5 Years from now there will be many many more people expressing my concerns, I can guarantee you that.

 

On a final note, doesn't anyone find it disturbing that the burning Quran thing has more media attention than the beheading of Nick Berg or the burning of the American flag which happens daily?

If someone is ready to shoot at our troops over a book isn't it better to indeed flush them out and kill them?

[future_doc]

If someone is ready to shoot at our troops over a book isn't it better to indeed flush them out and kill them?

 

The planned Koran burning on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks by this fringe Christian minister is essentially a terrorist act meant to give him maximim publicity in his quest for his 15 minutes of international fame or infamy, depending upon your point of view.

 

Any reaosonable person would realize such an act with result in an immediate backlash, troops in Afghanistan will be put into greater jeopardy and almost certainly, death and atrocoities will be the result.

 

Violence beget violence. It becomes a vicious circle and should be stopped and not perpetuated. Suggesting there be even more killings because of the reaction today to the minister's intended burning for the Koran is fueling the flames and is not helpful.

 

PEACE!

[Daniel565]

There have been a few quotes from the Quran (mostly by Axel & mdDave) loaded with the implications that these are quotes which characterize the Islamic faith as Terrorist oriented.

 

I had hoped this wouldn't be necessary, but upon reading the continuum of comments about the Quran on premed101 I decided to go fourth. Axel & mdDave, I have decided egg both of your houses with the produce of a thousand chickens!!

 

hahaha just kidding, I will do my best to respond to every one of your quotations/inquiries. You can use any personal Quranic translation combined with an Arabic-English dictionary or an Arabic-speaking friend to double check/confirm.

 

 

 

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5, Verse 51)

The Arabic word translated as "friends" here is Awliyaa. Strictly speaking, Awliyaa does not mean friends. Awliyaa means "to give full responsability over oneself". ie {Do not idolize them/become their blind followers.}

 

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9, Verse 121-)

This quotation is incorrect. Quran 9:121; "Nor do they spend (donations in the name of God) small or large, or cross a valley except that the deed is taken account of, God will reward them for the best of their actions."

 

"The disbelievers are the firewood of hell." (Surah 72, Verse 15)

"Disbelievers" here is put in the place of "Al-Qaasitun," which actually means "Unjust" or "Deviants." The correct term for disbeliever is "Kaafir."

The verse becomes "The Unjust/Deviants are the firewood of hell."

 

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush." (Surah 9, Verse 5)

This quotation is incorrect. The actual verse speaks about chastity and dietary permissions.

 

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not." (Surah 2, Verse 216)

I see nothing wrong with this verse, it remains bound by previous verses which prohibit aggression by an Islamic state upon a peaceful non-Muslim state. The implied meaning is that sometimes Muslims will have to fight (Self-defence, freedom of speech).

 

"I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Surah 8, Verse 12)

The name of this Surah is "The Spoils of War." It's talking about a state of war with a non-Muslim aggressor. Unfortunately in war, people kill each other.

 

"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are ruthless to the Unbelievers, but merciful to each other." (Surah 48, Verse 29)

"Ruthless" is substituted for "Firm." The Arabic word here is "Ashiddaa2" which does not mean "Ruthless." In addition, the name of this Surah is "The Conquest/Victory." It applies to the battlefield. The valid translation thus becomes: "Muhammad the messenger of God and those who are with him, firm with the unbelievers (on the battlefield), and merciful amongst themselves."

 

"But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."(Surah 22, Verses 19-22)

This is a description of the punishment of hell (or at least its worldly analogue). It's talking about more than just "disbelievers", it's talking about those who conceal the messages of God (ie Satan and his followers). I don't understand, did you expect roses?

 

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah… (Surah 8, Verse 39)"

Forget the actual context, whoever quoted this skipped over the beginning and the end of the same Verse.

The verse is actually: "And fight them so that there can be no more fitnah (injustice/oppression/tests) on Earth, and so that all religion belongs to God (People are free to choose their belief without prosecution). But if they cease (aggression), then indeed God does recognize/see what they do (ie stop the fighting)."

 

“O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty." (Surah 9, Verse 123)

This verse (as well as most of the chapter/Surah) is referring to the Islamic state's nothern Byzantium neighbors in Tabuk (thus the wording "near to you"), who had already amassed their armies in preparation for invasion. In addition, one of their tribes (The Ghassanids) had killed an official messenger sent to invite the people to Islam. In 7th century Arabia, this was an act of war. The verse remains bound by the many previous verses which prohibit unprovoked aggression.

 

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." (Surah 2, Verse 191 - 193)

I've already dealt with the final portion (2 quotations above), but whoever quoted this left out the verse before (190) and the one in the middle (191).

Without omitting any verses, Surah 2, Verses 190-192 become:

"Fight in the name of God those who fight you, but do not commit aggression, for God does not love the aggressors.| And fight them wherever you meet them, and turn them out from the places that they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) engage you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.| But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

 

"Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" (Surah 4, Verse 95).

Jihad was translated here to mean "fight." This is not the case at all. Its literal meaning in Arabic is "effort". Effort in the name of God encompasses seeking knowledge, helping the poor as well as fighting whent he need arises. The "And recieve no hurt" was translated from "ghayri 2oulaa al-darar" which could just as easily (if not better) mean "those who are disabled."

 

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9, Verse 29)

As before, most of this Chapter/Surah (including this verse) is referring to the Islamic state's nothern Byzantium neighbors in Tabuk, who had already amassed their armies in preparation for invasion. In addition, one of their tribes (The Ghassanids) had killed an official messenger sent to invite the people to Islam. In 7th century Arabia, this was an act of war. The verse remains bound by the many previous verses which prohibit unprovoked aggression.

 

Now if that isn't a fullfilling reply I don't know what is!

[axel]

Informative post Daniel. There are some random verses in there.. I surmise you've just copied and pasted somebody else's reponse.

 

Also, replacing words based on how arabic words can be interpreted in english softens up the verses at the minuscule level, but there isn't much of a difference.

 

For example,

 

"But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."(Surah 22, Verses 19-22)

This is a description of the punishment of hell (or at least its worldly analogue). It's talking about more than just "disbelievers", it's talking about those who conceal the messages of God (ie Satan and his followers). I don't understand, did you expect roses?

 

This is not just a description of hell, this is a specific description of what happens to people who don't believe the quran and islam. There is no room for misinterpretation in the quran, it is word for word what god said.

It doesn't matter how you interpret, twist and explain this verse, it's intolerant at it's root. And this verse is just one of the problems.. the other verses make average people prone to anti-semetism, anti-integration, anti-gays, against other religions, oppressive to women, aggressive in small and moderate issues at school, home, workplace...etc

 

The quran has many good things in it, but the intolerance and aggression it spreads from it's roots makes it impossible to accept.. Another random handful:

 

 

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to this verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.

 

 

 

Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

 

 

 

Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.

 

 

 

Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

 

 

 

Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

 

 

 

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

 

 

 

Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

 

 

 

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

 

 

 

Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

 

 

 

Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

 

 

 

Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

 

 

 

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

 

 

 

Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

 

 

 

Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" From the historical context we know that the "persecution" spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah." According to Ibn Ishaq (324), Muhammad justified the violence further by explaining that "Allah must have no rivals."

 

 

 

Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

 

 

 

Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

 

 

 

Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

 

 

 

Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

 

 

 

Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant."

 

 

 

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years.

 

 

Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

 

 

 

Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."

 

 

Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them"

 

Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

 

 

 

Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

 

 

Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

 

 

 

Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

 

 

 

Qur'an (8:65-81) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion.

 

 

 

Qur'an (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

 

 

 

Qur'an (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

 

 

 

Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

 

 

 

Qur'an (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"

 

 

 

Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."

 

 

 

Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.

 

 

 

Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"

 

 

 

Qur'an (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity."

 

 

 

Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

 

 

From random Hadiths (major and minor):

 

 

 

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

 

 

 

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)."

 

 

 

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

 

 

 

Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)

 

 

 

Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious

 

 

 

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

 

 

 

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah

 

 

 

Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."

 

 

 

Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"

 

 

 

Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"

 

 

 

Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."

 

 

 

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam.

 

 

 

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

 

 

 

Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

 

 

Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."

 

This are random problematic verses, and there are many more. There are also practical and useful verses in the quran which aren't stated here. The problem is in the root that the quran is aggressive to basically anybody non-muslm. There is no tolerance, no freedom for integration into another culture, no room for co-existence..etc

[Daniel565]

Actually I personally took the time to respond to the quotations you made. I'm fluent in Arabic so it wasn't difficult at all. Some of you're quotes were mistranslated, some were isolated from the surrounding text, and the others either fabricated or given the wrong citation.

 

Either way, every one of your prior quotes that I found was well answered.

With regards to the one that you cherry picked, "Kuffaar" is not bound by the term {atheist.} Satan is considered a Kaffir, and he clearly doesn't fit the atheist category. In addition, I maintain that it remains a description of what happens in Hell.

 

Regardless, then you come back on and instead of apologizing for blindly copying and pasting somebody ELSE'S material without verifying it, you go and post more of it? Some of which was exactly the same as what I had ALREADY answered?

 

It's clear that you are only interested in playing the Copy-Paste game to insult a faith that you know very little about, in order to justify your own worldview. Ironically, I have previously encountered this exact behavior in an argument with a radical muslim - he didn't care much about the Quran, all he wanted was to justify his own views.

 

Start Rant

How many Muslim countries would you have invaded had you been president? How many innocent Muslims' blood would have been on your hands?

The difference between you and the Islamic radical, is that you will never have enough political power to achieve your goals in the United States, or even Canada. In the war torn, oil rich, post colonization Middle-East however, with foreign meddling - anything goes. Western nations destroyed their social structure and kept their civilization in chaos. Then we sponsored the likes of Osama Ben Laden because it benefited OUR interests-we didn't care about Afghan freedom, nor about Saudi Arabian society. We cared about setting up a proxy to fight Russia, and about placing weak Kings in Qatar, Kuwait, Iran (Shah) etc where we could force them to do with the Oil what WE command. We convinced nations to fight bloody wars while buying OUR weapons(Iraq-Iran), tricked US-dependent Tyrants to invade neighboring countries (Iraq-Kuwait) and freed the poor oil rich Kuwait while making her foot the bill. Then when our own monsters bit us in the ***, we cried "Oh, the Muslims hate us!" The funny part is that they don't, they admire us. The want to mimic our democratic ideas, quoting the Quran and saying that it's Islamic. They want to raise awareness about women's rights, quoting the Quran and saying that it's Islamic. You'd be surprised what amazing things they want to do while quoting the Quran and saying it's Islamic. I know, because I'm one of them. "What?? so in an Islamic state you'd want to KILL homosexuals??" - No I don't, in my ideal state, people are free to do what they wish in the private square, as long as it remains private and doesn't impact society, that I got from a valid hadith. "But you think women are sub-human??" - No I don't, as an example I'm told to value my mother's wishes/sacrifices THRICE as much as my father. "But you believe in Sharia law and want to cut off the hand of a theif?" No, sharia is a word for law in arabic and there are enough preconditions on severing of the hands which make it much more of a deterrent rather than a punishment. Go ahead, tell me what I believe.

 

Tell me that you or your true love pastor Terry Jones have studied the Quran and Hadith more than I have (you'd be quite arrogant & mistaken to make such a statement). I pride myself have a firm grasp of science, social justice, and philosophy. I don't believe that I'm ethically handicapped. "So you believe in MIRACLES??!" - No, not with your definition I don't, the Arabic analogue of your "miracle" is "Mu3jiza/unexplained phenomenon," and we're told that the only "Unexplained phenomenon" that will remain in our time is the Quran itself. One of us has a twisted understanding of Islam, I'm putting my money on you.

End Rant

 

I'm done here