Is an education worth the debt?

[apache]

hmm... i only pay around 13 k for meds, for dent but ubc is 50 g, u of t is like 40, sask is 40, manitoba i think is 40, mcgill is sweet and is only like 13 for 3/4 years and 33 the year besides that. i think uwo looks like round 37, i think there's prob extra equipment cost to the 27 maybe??

 

3.5 times more expensive than meds? Wow that is a lot - where does that come from? Next year at Western the med tuition is 19474, and it looks like dents is about 27000. I would guess(?) living expenses are the same etc. Is there some other huge expense there or somethign else that I am missing?

 

If there is that is kind of scary

[rmorelan]

The challenge here is that marks in the real world don't mean jack. I've never been asked for transcripts as part of the hiring process and i've never asked for transcripts when i was doing the hiring. 51% vs 95%, to the majority of employers out there it's all the same. We don't care. What we do care about is your ability to think critically, problem solve and communicate well. Just because you went to college or University doesn't actually mean a person can do those things. So how do we make marks mean something when employers don't even care?

 

Yeah there is some truth to that - I mean let's face it, you often get high marks in the sciences by memorizing things that in the real world you can simply look up and not by applying science in a directly meaningful way. You generally spend time learning material that is not taylored for a career because quite understandably that isn't what University's were designed for - they are research institutes which generally serve best in preparing people for graduate work. Graduate work itself is designed to prepare you for a life of academic research etc. None of that is particular organized around getting you a job outside of academia which can lead to disappointment and with more and more people cramming into universities that disappointment is likely to grow.

 

That isn't to say there aren't professional style programs at university that lead to solid jobs (medicine, law, engineering.....) but in those cases often the program requirements are not dictated by the academic world but rather from outside bodies regulating what their future members must know to be effective on the job. It would interesting to see what Universities would come up with outside of this sort of external supervision

 

The main way universities often compensate for the lack of direct applicability of their programs is to create coop streams, which I find is kind of an interesting approach philosophically - it is as if the Universities abdondon the idea of ever being employment driven and throw students in to industry in the hopes they will learn things there. Of course they do but coop programs are hard to standardize, it is hard to validate particular employers and so experiences vary. Also naturally universities charge extra so students can learn the very things most of them are hoping the university would teach

 

This isn't entirely a bad thing - hopefully I am not sounding overly negative - but I think currently the very model of how universities operate has drifted in the last 50 years out of alignment with the rest of society's goals for them and we are feeling some of that stress overall.

[rmorelan]

hmm... i only pay around 13 k for meds, for dent but ubc is 50 g, u of t is like 40, sask is 40, manitoba i think is 40, mcgill is sweet and is only like 13 for 3/4 years and 33 the year besides that. i think uwo looks like round 37, i think there's prob extra equipment cost to the 27 maybe??

 

Yeah - must be something! Still even if it was 40,000 tutition that is "only" 50% more than meds for Ontario when you factor in living expenses etc - ubc has some comparatively lower tuition than Ontario which is awesome for those people. Not sure how they let meds stay so low and dents rise out of control. Still crazy expensive no matter how you slice it

 

I suppose Dents have a faster time to market though - we are still in residency/fellowships long after they have set themselves up generally. At least the payback on paper should be faster then.

[mm88]

I recently saw a documentary about US student debts - it included an interview with a dentist who graduated in 89 and still is unable to repay/keep up with debt repayment. It was so disheartening.

[aaronjw]

I recently saw a documentary about US student debts - it included an interview with a dentist who graduated in 89 and still is unable to repay/keep up with debt repayment. It was so disheartening.

 

There's also a factor of living beyond your means as many "professionals" are known to do so it's often hard to know if lifestyle factors are contributing to these types of issues with professionals.

[donnadee]

There's also a factor of living beyond your means as many "professionals" are known to do so it's often hard to know if lifestyle factors are contributing to these types of issues with professionals.

 

that is true...wise decision making is very important, especially in a career like dentistry where it is quite easy to engulf oneself in debts...for e.g. some students fresh out of d-school take on another loan on top of existing student loans to fund their practice...with dental student loans in US going above $250 grand for the 4 yrs....it'd be only wise to pay off ones loans asap...also, like you mention, unfortunately a lot of the times, students use up debt to fund their lifestyles...poor decision making imo

[apache]

if there's anything i've figured out, it's that i don't plan on changing my lifestyle for at least a couple years after i start practicing, even if i put half my salary towards my loans it'll still be infinitely more money than i've ever made and can still afford you a relatively good life... i can't think of anything worse than debt, it's like indentured slavery, you lose a lot of the freedom to make everyday decision (take a day off friday off and take a road trip to the mountains etc.) and you always have to make decisions based on making that next payment.

 

the lifestyle thing is totally true to, i knew a girl that was dating a surgery resident and she was complaining about how he had racked up 365 g in debt already. she was working in banff and he was in calg and when he'd come into visit her he'd insist on renting a luxury car even though he already had a car... the stories were pretty endless. i'm sure he'll enjoy not having the option of taking a break from work, for years after he's done, because he has so much debt.

 

that is true...wise decision making is very important, also, like you mention, unfortunately a lot of the times, students use up debt to fund their lifestyles...poor decision making imo

[kkentm]

what debt?

[rmorelan]

if there's anything i've figured out, it's that i don't plan on changing my lifestyle for at least a couple years after i start practicing, even if i put half my salary towards my loans it'll still be infinitely more money than i've ever made and can still afford you a relatively good life... i can't think of anything worse than debt, it's like indentured slavery, you lose a lot of the freedom to make everyday decision (take a day off friday off and take a road trip to the mountains etc.) and you always have to make decisions based on making that next payment.

 

 

I am with you on that - I actually did live like student for a couple of extra years there and frankly it is amazing how much you can save per month. We are talking thousands of dollars per month with a pretty normal job.

[larva]

I am with you on that - I actually did live like student for a couple of extra years there and frankly it is amazing how much you can save per month. We are talking thousands of dollars per month with a pretty normal job.

 

That is exactly what I am doing now, but in preparation for school

It's amazing how much money I used to waste...I wish I had been smarter in my early twenties!

[Jochi1543]

There's also a factor of living beyond your means as many "professionals" are known to do so it's often hard to know if lifestyle factors are contributing to these types of issues with professionals.

 

That's so true. If you still haven't paid off your debt 20+ years down the road, you either don't work nearly enough or can't manage your money properly. I'm going to be graduating with a lot of debt (already sitting at $100,000 from undergrad and 2 years of med, so probably $150K min), but when I consider physician salaries, I'm not terribly worried. I'm lucky in that my boyfriend has a good job, so we can live comfortably on his salary alone. We've already discussed it and agreed that we'll live off of his salary during my residency, so I can put my entire residency pay towards my debt. He's debt-free, which also helps. That way my debt will be more than 2/3 paid off by the time I'm eligible to enter practice. And as long as I'm able to find full-time work as a locum or whatever, I'll pay off 50K in a year without a problem. I've made sure that we both have life and disability insurance, and got him to buy good health insurance in case something happens. Neither of us is into luxury lifestyles, and I already own my place and we have reliable cars that should last us until I'm done residency, so I don't foresee any major expenditures outside of tuition and basic living expenses. My condo is insured up the wazoo, as well, so if there's a fire or a break-in, it's not going to ruin me financially (you can tell I'm quite risk-averse, haha).

 

I do wish I had less debt and/or the opportunity to get parental support so I could, say, take a year off before residency, but that's not an option.

[RaVen777]

I agree with what has been said about living above your means or below your means.

 

My wife and I are poised in a great place to attack the medical school costs, because for the last two years, we have tried our very best to live off one salary. (In reality, we probably lived off mine and a bit of hers), but we never blew the budget. We COULD have bought a house in the fraser valley, eaten out more often, and gone on more expensive vacations, but we chose not to, and we are in a better place financially.

 

It's really hard to do, but I would rather live a few years below my means, than play catch-up for the rest of my career. With a 150k salary and my wife working a bit, we should be able to chip away at the debt in an expedient fashion.

 

Besides, you can seriously manage to live life on 100,000 a year instead of 150,000. We are not talking about the difference between 30,000 and 60,000.

[rmorelan]

I agree with what has been said about living above your means or below your means.

 

My wife and I are poised in a great place to attack the medical school costs, because for the last two years, we have tried our very best to live off one salary. (In reality, we probably lived off mine and a bit of hers), but we never blew the budget. We COULD have bought a house in the fraser valley, eaten out more often, and gone on more expensive vacations, but we chose not to, and we are in a better place financially.

 

It's really hard to do, but I would rather live a few years below my means, than play catch-up for the rest of my career. With a 150k salary and my wife working a bit, we should be able to chip away at the debt in an expedient fashion.

 

Besides, you can seriously manage to live life on 100,000 a year instead of 150,000. We are not talking about the difference between 30,000 and 60,000.

 

There are a few times when it is not as hard to do I think - when you just get out of residency you have spent years leaving at the well under 100K level. Some sort of preauthorized payment plan that goes out before you even see your new increased paycheck so you don't miss the money can be quite helpful. That is what I did before.

 

Now granted you want to live a little of course at that point, but still you don't have to jump all the way to your max right a way