Question for McMaster students - kids during school

[Juniper72]

Hi,

 

I'm wondering if anybody from McMaster can speak to McMaster's policies for students getting pregnant and having a baby during school. Do people take a year off and start back up again with the next class? Or take just a couple of months off? Is Mac generally "family-friendly"?

 

And, do you know anything about their deferral process? I know it's on a case by case basis, but I'm wondering if being pregnant makes it pretty likely that you'll get a deferral or if it's still iffy.

 

Any input from anybody who as any experience with this would be much appreciated!

 

For some context - I'm not applying this cycle, McMaster will be my top choice when I do apply, and I'm obviously trying to do some family planning

[Dino]

I don't know about the policies, but in my personal experience of being a parent while in school, I would say "!!!!! WAIT UNTIL YOU ARE DONE WITH MEDICAL SCHOOL !!!!!" I would go so far as advising that you to wait until you finished your residency. Achieve your academic and professional goals first, for they will be MUCH, MUCH harder to reach while you are a parent and, to a lesser extent even a spouse. The obligations of a new parent (especially mothers - sorry, but mothers still take the lion's share when it comes to child-rearing (nesting instinct I suspect - call me old school), which will also bring considerable contempt toward the father if he is too busy), the sleepless nights, the childhood illnesses, et caetera WILL take their toll. After a parental leave, the child will have to go to daycare (away from Mom) for you to stand a chance to succeed in school, then your afternoons, evenings and weekends will be completely booked. This WILL put enormous stress in your relationship with your significant other. The joys of parenthood can wait a few years. They will be much better appreciated and YOU will be less cranky.

I know this has nothing to do with your original question, but I recommend you do as little damage as possible to your future family. You will find out how very important your family is when you become a parent.

[RiceWine]

at our school, one would automatically fail unit 3 (reproduction)

[zxcv]

at my school you don't have to do repo since you're a pro at it.

[proton]

Some of the people who replied to the OP have demonstrated their ignorance nicely. Some people want to have kids. Some people might not want to put their career ahead of everything else in their life or for some people, depending on age, circumstance, their partner's wishes, etc, the decision to have children could be somewhat time sensitive. Telling someone they should just wait until they are done three or four years of medical school and 2-5 years of residency is rather patronizing and presumptuous. Don't denigrate a person for having different priorities than you do.

 

OP - life happens. If you have a good reason to defer admission (and I think a baby is a pretty good reason) - they will probably let you defer. It would probably make school more challenging if you had a baby than if you didn't, but ultimately you know yourself, your abilities, priorities, and weaknesses best. I don't think anyone would kick you out if you got pregnant during school, but it would pose some problems and you might have to repeat things or wait a year or whatever. If you're really concerned, email the admin and ask.

 

For the record I think it's very responsible of you to think of these things and the impact they could have on you and others. Atomsmasher seems to have forgotten that everyone has a mother who had them at some point. Good for you OP for thinking things through clearly.

[AtomSmasher2]

Some of the people who replied to the OP have demonstrated their ignorance nicely. Some people want to have kids. Some people might not want to put their career ahead of everything else in their life or for some people, depending on age, circumstance, their partner's wishes, etc, the decision to have children could be somewhat time sensitive. Telling someone they should just wait until they are done three or four years of medical school and 2-5 years of residency is rather patronizing and presumptuous. Don't denigrate a person for having different priorities than you do.

 

OP - life happens. If you have a good reason to defer admission (and I think a baby is a pretty good reason) - they will probably let you defer. It would probably make school more challenging if you had a baby than if you didn't, but ultimately you know yourself, your abilities, priorities, and weaknesses best. I don't think anyone would kick you out if you got pregnant during school, but it would pose some problems and you might have to repeat things or wait a year or whatever. If you're really concerned, email the admin and ask.

 

For the record I think it's very responsible of you to think of these things and the impact they could have on you and others. Atomsmasher seems to have forgotten that everyone has a mother who had them at some point. Good for you OP for thinking things through clearly.

 

First of all, this a moot topic. The OP hasn't been accepted to Mac, and statistically speaking, she has about a 4% chance of this happening if she applies. In fact, most matriculants have little choice of what school they attend, so it's not likely that she'll be able to pick the most "child-friendly" school.

 

Second, every woman has to choose between kids and career. If you attempt to do both at once, both will suffer. Its a fact of life that feminism can't change. Choosing to get pregnant is a selfish action, so nobody is going to accomodate that beyond a token effort. Don't delude yourself into thinking anything other than kids + meds = hell.

 

As an aside, it amazes me how entitled pregnant women and new mothers think they are to special treatment.

[JB.]

I understand the drive to have children and I know that's important to a large percentage of the population. That being said, I think if you plan on "dropping out" sometime during med school to have children, you need to choose what you want to do. Either have kids before med school or after med school. It's not fair to take a spot in med school away from somebody else and then not make full use of your spot.

 

On the practicality of the idea, it's probably more practical to have children later vs. earlier. I have read of people having children during their residency. That's all fine and dandy if you have an easy pregnancy, but if you have a difficult pregnancy, you're going to find it a very challenging time. I certainly wouldn't want that pressure on me. Keep in mind if you can't complete your residency, all the years of work you put in are going to mean nothing.

[JustMe]

I'm not at Mac so I'm no familiar with their particular policies but I am a current student at another Ontario Med School.

 

To those who think it's as easy as "you have to choose between med school and parenthood"... I'm guessing you're 21 and have never seriously considered the issue. The fact is that by the time many students jump through enough hoops and graduate degrees to get into med school, they're in their late 20's/early 30's and in serious long-term relationships and kids become a very real priority.

 

To the OP - I'm considering having a child during school and have received nothing but support from the faculty that I've discussed it with. I know several people who have done it and it's very difficult... but far from impossible. Most preceptors and classmates are extremely supportive and helpful (I even know of a case where the course director babysat while a student wrote an exam). If you're committed to finishing med school (and you should definitely be committed to finishing if you start) the faculty will help make sure you do!

 

It'll be a lot of work but school is no reason to put the rest of your life on hold. To those who can't see that - I feel sorry for you.

 

Good luck whatever you choose to do!

[HopeToBeGreen]

First let me say how embarrassed I am by some of the insensitive, immature comments above. I hope none of them discourage you. In my experience and opinion, having children is the most rewarding and meaningful thing in life and I applaud you for taking the responsibility required to plan for this adventure.

 

At the Mac info session this year, your question was asked. They seemed quite open to people having children during their training. In fact, there is apparently a student in the current class with 4 children. They mentioned that if you take any time off you would likely have to take a full year off because the various parts of the training are only offered once a year. So for example, Medical Foundations 2 is offered in January-Febuary and if you miss it you will not be able to pick it back up until the following year. My impression was that the school was clearly open to this type of rescheduling.

 

If you are pregnant during your residency you are entitled to pregnancy leave. I think you even get some pay. What you get varies by province. Look here for the details:

 

http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_program_salaries_e.shtml

 

Looks like in Ontario you get 17 weeks to be pregnant and then 35 weeks of parental leave.

 

Clearly, it will be much more difficult to go through med school while raising children but others have proven that it is possible. You'll also want to evaluate the support network you have (partner, family, parents etc) who can help you out with the child care responsibilities when you studies need your attention. Having people to support you will really help you to succeed.

[AtomSmasher2]

I understand the drive to have children and I know that's important to a large percentage of the population. That being said, I think if you plan on "dropping out" sometime during med school to have children, you need to choose what you want to do. Either have kids before med school or after med school. It's not fair to take a spot in med school away from somebody else and then not make full use of your spot.

 

On the practicality of the idea, it's probably more practical to have children later vs. earlier. I have read of people having children during their residency. That's all fine and dandy if you have an easy pregnancy, but if you have a difficult pregnancy, you're going to find it a very challenging time. I certainly wouldn't want that pressure on me. Keep in mind if you can't complete your residency, all the years of work you put in are going to mean nothing.

 

This post reflects my sentiment exactly. There are plenty of strong medical school candidates who are willing to give it 100% in medical school. And the OP is considering getting accepted, getting pregnant, and only putting in a half ass job. That's not fair to the thousands of stellar applicants who got rejected. Your GPA is supposed to be predictive of your medical school studiousness - do you really think you could get the required GPA for meds if you had a child in undergrad? Of course not, so you're basically being dishonest about your future academic performance. It's also not fair to the Canadian taxpayers who are spending thousands of dollars on your education, expecting a good doc in return, only for you to say "screw you guys, it's my right to have a family."

 

That's why I say that getting pregnant in this case would be a totally selfish course of action. You also happen to be screwing yourself doing that too.

[deeman101]

Some of you guys have something too far up your behinds. This is a profession that deals with people of all walks of life. If you're judging someone for wanting to have a kid while in med.....well you won't be impressed with many of your patients. Don't be jealous if you see someone doing med while raising a child and doing just fine at both.

 

OP, from my experience with mac med faculty they're very nice people that are more than accommodating. It probably is one of the more child-friendly schools you could go to. I don't think you will have a problem. There are a few people in my class that are parents before starting med, had a child since getting into med, or are planning on having a child. Some of them are single parents too. And though its harder, they're managing it with great help from the faculty. And I don't even think my faculty is anywhere as nice as the one at mac.

[PhoenixFlare500]

This post reflects my sentiment exactly. There are plenty of strong medical school candidates who are willing to give it 100% in medical school. And the OP is considering getting accepted, getting pregnant, and only putting in a half ass job. That's not fair to the thousands of stellar applicants who got rejected. Your GPA is supposed to be predictive of your medical school studiousness - do you really think you could get the required GPA for meds if you had a child in undergrad? Of course not, so you're basically being dishonest about your future academic performance. It's also not fair to the Canadian taxpayers who are spending thousands of dollars on your education, expecting a good doc in return, only for you to say "screw you guys, it's my right to have a family."

 

That's why I say that getting pregnant in this case would be a totally selfish course of action. You also happen to be screwing yourself doing that too.

If you're gonna try to be a jerk to someone at least do it in a way that makes sense. Let's break this down. You're implying that someone who wants to raise a kid is lazy and isn't gonna try in med school. If they pass med, well then that obviously means they did a good enough job. I have classmates that have kids, they haven't failed out yet. Obviously they do a better job than you of keeping up priorities. You're also saying it's impossible to get a high enough GPA for med school while raising a kid, sure it's going to be harder but it's still possible (see previous point about classmates). Being dishonest about future academic performance? I'm sure you went to the hardest university in the country picking the hardest program and hardest classes just so you could be honest about your future academic performance, as opposed to taking the easiest bird courses possible to maximize your GPA (judging from your posts you're actually probably still in high school, maybe first year undergrad but I'm leaving this in here anyways). As for the last point about wasting taxpayer money on doctors who raise kids after school, what about doctors who only work half time? What about the fact that we bring doctors in from other countries that need them and require them to repeat training and testing, and then send them to places where they're not really enthusiastic to go to? Is that beneficial to taxpayers? What about the fact that education for other programs is also subsidized by the government, leading to occupations that allow maternity leave, taking someone away from the workforce and thus affecting the national economy so much that it's teetering on the edge of collapse? (<--- That was sarcasm).

 

As for the last point, getting pregnant being selfish. I'd like you to tell that to your mother who spent 9 months having you in her body screwing it up and spending however long you've lived raising you and spending money on you when she could have been doing more fun stuff, or at least spending money on a babysitter when she was out doing fun stuff. And if you didn't know your mommy, well then I guess taxpayer money raised you so you could make inflammatory posts on this forum. That's some good use of it right there.

 

I understand the drive to have children and I know that's important to a large percentage of the population. That being said, I think if you plan on "dropping out" sometime during med school to have children, you need to choose what you want to do. Either have kids before med school or after med school. It's not fair to take a spot in med school away from somebody else and then not make full use of your spot.

People who have kids in the middle of med school and take time off for it aren't "dropping out", they're just taking a leave of absence to return to school again. Do you realize that people can fail med school and have to repeat years? Yet the admitting class sizes in schools stay the same so we can pump out a certain number of med students each year, at least averaged out (at least here anyways). People can choose to do an MD/PhD and do the PhD part between clerkship and preclerkship. Now certainly there could be people that drop out to have kids and never return, then again some people just drop out of med altogether for other reasons i.e. it wasn't for them. Maybe you should complain to them (hint hint Muse) instead of implying that people don't have a right to choose when they want to have children.

P.S. Nothing against you Muse, just making a point. Well other than your narcissism of course.

[FacelessMage]

If you're gonna try to be a jerk to someone at least do it in a way that makes sense. Let's break this down. You're implying that someone who wants to raise a kid is lazy and isn't gonna try in med school. If they pass med, well then that obviously means they did a good enough job. I have classmates that have kids, they haven't failed out yet. Obviously they do a better job than you of keeping up priorities. You're also saying it's impossible to get a high enough GPA for med school while raising a kid, sure it's going to be harder but it's still possible (see previous point about classmates). Being dishonest about future academic performance? I'm sure you went to the hardest university in the country picking the hardest program and hardest classes just so you could be honest about your future academic performance, as opposed to taking the easiest bird courses possible to maximize your GPA (judging from your posts you're actually probably still in high school, maybe first year undergrad but I'm leaving this in here anyways). As for the last point about wasting taxpayer money on doctors who raise kids after school, what about doctors who only work half time? What about the fact that we bring doctors in from other countries that need them and require them to repeat training and testing, and then send them to places where they're not really enthusiastic to go to? Is that beneficial to taxpayers? What about the fact that education for other programs is also subsidized by the government, leading to occupations that allow maternity leave, taking someone away from the workforce and thus affecting the national economy so much that it's teetering on the edge of collapse? (<--- That was sarcasm).

 

As for the last point, getting pregnant being selfish. I'd like you to tell that to your mother who spent 9 months having you in her body screwing it up and spending however long you've lived raising you and spending money on you when she could have been doing more fun stuff, or at least spending money on a babysitter when she was out doing fun stuff. And if you didn't know your mommy, well then I guess taxpayer money raised you so you could make inflammatory posts on this forum. That's some good use of it right there.

 

 

People who have kids in the middle of med school and take time off for it aren't "dropping out", they're just taking a leave of absence to return to school again. Do you realize that people can fail med school and have to repeat years? Yet the admitting class sizes in schools stay the same so we can pump out a certain number of med students each year, at least averaged out (at least here anyways). People can choose to do an MD/PhD and do the PhD part between clerkship and preclerkship. Now certainly there could be people that drop out to have kids and never return, then again some people just drop out of med altogether for other reasons i.e. it wasn't for them. Maybe you should complain to them (hint hint Muse) instead of implying that people don't have a right to choose when they want to have children.

P.S. Nothing against you Muse, just making a point. Well other than your narcissism of course.

 

[Jochi1543]

Having kids is overrated. Given that there's a huge economic collapse around the corner, its probably not the best time to be reproducing for most people.

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXRjmyJFzrU

[atesme]

There are plenty of strong medical school candidates who are willing to give it 100% in medical school. And the OP is considering getting accepted, getting pregnant, and only putting in a half ass job. That's not fair to the thousands of stellar applicants who got rejected.

 

Perhaps you should remember that medical school isn't the end-all and be-all. We are all attempting to at one point be excellent doctors, not students. To that end, the perfect attendance, the test scores, and the GPA are only part of the deal. Why are extracurriculars so important to med schools? Because it's about life experiences and developing as a person.

 

It all boils down to the fact that I would much rather walk into a doctor's office and be treated by someone's loving and responsible mother who took six years to finish school than by someone who spent only four years, but did it with their nose in a book and their head in the air the entire time.

[apache]

life's not fair, remember

 

This post reflects my sentiment exactly. There are plenty of strong medical school candidates who are willing to give it 100% in medical school. And the OP is considering getting accepted, getting pregnant, and only putting in a half ass job. That's not fair to the thousands of stellar applicants who got rejected. Your GPA is supposed to be predictive of your medical school studiousness - do you really think you could get the required GPA for meds if you had a child in undergrad? Of course not, so you're basically being dishonest about your future academic performance. It's also not fair to the Canadian taxpayers who are spending thousands of dollars on your education, expecting a good doc in return, only for you to say "screw you guys, it's my right to have a family."

 

That's why I say that getting pregnant in this case would be a totally selfish course of action. You also happen to be screwing yourself doing that too.

[proton]

Deleted. "A wise man told me don't argue with fools, cause people from a distance can't tell who is who."

[Dino]

Deleted. "A wise man told me don't argue with fools, cause people from a distance can't tell who is who."

 

"Never argue with an idiot for he will drag you down to his level, then beat you with experience."

[AtomSmasher2]

If you're gonna try to be a jerk to someone at least do it in a way that makes sense. Let's break this down. You're implying that someone who wants to raise a kid is lazy and isn't gonna try in med school. If they pass med, well then that obviously means they did a good enough job. I have classmates that have kids, they haven't failed out yet. Obviously they do a better job than you of keeping up priorities. You're also saying it's impossible to get a high enough GPA for med school while raising a kid, sure it's going to be harder but it's still possible (see previous point about classmates). Being dishonest about future academic performance? I'm sure you went to the hardest university in the country picking the hardest program and hardest classes just so you could be honest about your future academic performance, as opposed to taking the easiest bird courses possible to maximize your GPA (judging from your posts you're actually probably still in high school, maybe first year undergrad but I'm leaving this in here anyways). As for the last point about wasting taxpayer money on doctors who raise kids after school, what about doctors who only work half time? What about the fact that we bring doctors in from other countries that need them and require them to repeat training and testing, and then send them to places where they're not really enthusiastic to go to? Is that beneficial to taxpayers? What about the fact that education for other programs is also subsidized by the government, leading to occupations that allow maternity leave, taking someone away from the workforce and thus affecting the national economy so much that it's teetering on the edge of collapse? (<--- That was sarcasm).

 

As for the last point, getting pregnant being selfish. I'd like you to tell that to your mother who spent 9 months having you in her body screwing it up and spending however long you've lived raising you and spending money on you when she could have been doing more fun stuff, or at least spending money on a babysitter when she was out doing fun stuff. And if you didn't know your mommy, well then I guess taxpayer money raised you so you could make inflammatory posts on this forum. That's some good use of it right there.

 

 

People who have kids in the middle of med school and take time off for it aren't "dropping out", they're just taking a leave of absence to return to school again. Do you realize that people can fail med school and have to repeat years? Yet the admitting class sizes in schools stay the same so we can pump out a certain number of med students each year, at least averaged out (at least here anyways). People can choose to do an MD/PhD and do the PhD part between clerkship and preclerkship. Now certainly there could be people that drop out to have kids and never return, then again some people just drop out of med altogether for other reasons i.e. it wasn't for them. Maybe you should complain to them (hint hint Muse) instead of implying that people don't have a right to choose when they want to have children.

P.S. Nothing against you Muse, just making a point. Well other than your narcissism of course.

 

Rather than respond to your wall of text, allow me to simpify.

 

Getting pregnant, taking a year off of medical school - is that going to make you a better or worse doc? This should be common sense. And that's just not fair with the hundreds of great MS rejects.

 

Parenting and pregnancy are not selfish, but choosing that path is. Read that sentence a few times, it should start to make sense.

 

"Cynical" is a better descriptor of my posts than "inflammatory." That being said, people nowadays need to be more offended in our world full of bull**** like "political correctness" and "professionalism" (which rough translate to never saying what you really mean).

 

Having kids is overrated.

 

Absolutely. Having kids is a moronic idea if your goal in life is any of A) money, freedom, C) sex, or D) happiness (basically anything worth living for.) Unfortunately, men have no control over their reproduction (barring vasectomy which comes with a host of negative effects), so having them is pretty much an inevitability. And so the cycle of bull**** and unhappiness continues into the next generation.

[FacelessMage]

Absolutely. Having kids is a moronic idea if your goal in life is any of A) money, freedom, C) sex, or D) happiness (basically anything worth living for.) Unfortunately, men have no control over their reproduction (barring vasectomy which comes with a host of negative effects), so having them is pretty much an inevitability. And so the cycle of bull**** and unhappiness continues into the next generation.

 

 

There's always condoms, and I have no sympathy for men who choose not to wear them, and then complain about getting someone pregnant. Birth control is not always the women's responsibility. Men have to, you know, man up and be men, and take responsiblity for themselves.

[PhoenixFlare500]

Getting pregnant, taking a year off of medical school - is that going to make you a better or worse doc? This should be common sense. And that's just not fair with the hundreds of great MS rejects.

Got any proof? Common sense when it's actually common sense isn't always true. Common sense when you're making stuff up, well you figure it out. Are MD/PhDs who do their PhD in the middle of their degree to gain knowledge in a certain field worse docs?

 

Parenting and pregnancy are not selfish, but choosing that path is.

In the sense that spending your time and money on something in order to get a sense of fulfillment out of it? I can see how you could consider that choice selfish. In that line of thought, so is choosing to get an education, going to university. Also buying food, a car, a house, general things that are a given in a quality life these days. Spending $10 on a fast food combo when 10 African children (I made that number up) could all be fed with that amount of money. Shame on you for being so selfish.

 

Absolutely. Having kids is a moronic idea if your goal in life is any of A) money, freedom, C) sex, or D) happiness (basically anything worth living for.)

Ok, unless your goal in life is to actually accomplish something of lasting value.

 

Unfortunately, men have no control over their reproduction (barring vasectomy which comes with a host of negative effects), so having them is pretty much an inevitability. And so the cycle of bull**** and unhappiness continues into the next generation.

I'm sorry for your inability to keep your pants on. Good luck with that.

[AtomSmasher2]

There's always condoms, and I have no sympathy for men who choose not to wear them, and then complain about getting someone pregnant. Birth control is not always the women's responsibility. Men have to, you know, man up and be men, and take responsiblity for themselves.

 

Condoms are not perfect and unfortunately are the only tool availiable to men (outside of vasectomy) to stopping pregnancy. In fact, they're pretty much useless over the long term.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condom

 

Says here that the typical use failure rate is 10-18% per year, and that perfect use is 2%. Let's do the math. If there's a 2% failure rate per year, after 30 years of sexual activity, you have about a 50% chance of making a mistake. If your failure rate is 14% (which according to Wikipedia, is average), you're almost guarunteed (>99% chance) of knocking someone up after 30 years. With a failure rate of 14%, you're actually more likely to father multiple children than you are of fathering no children by accident over your lifetime.

 

Women try to get pregnant all the time without telling their partners. You can never trust a woman when she says she's on the pill.

 

Point being that men can defer pregnancy, but ultimately are at the mercy of women when it comes to reproduction.

 

The fact that testosterone injections, which are as effective in stopping pregnancy as the pill, are illegal is symbolic of society's disregard for men's reproductive rights.

 

So sorry to piss on your bon fire, but you're not as safe as you think you are.

[AtomSmasher2]

Got any proof? Common sense when it's actually common sense isn't always true. Common sense when you're making stuff up, well you figure it out. Are MD/PhDs who do their PhD in the middle of their degree to gain knowledge in a certain field worse docs?

Ever met a mom in undergrad? Notice how they all get **** marks because they're too busy changing diapers? That's the proof.

 

MD/PhDs are a whole other story. First, the difference between a PhD and kids is that after your time off of medical school, your PhD is done for good, but your kids stay with you until they get a job (which nowadays, takes about 25 years). And a PhD is part of your program, so you're not taking time off. PhD/MDs become clinical scientists, not family doctors, so whether they are worse docs or not is moot.

 

In the sense that spending your time and money on something in order to get a sense of fulfillment out of it? I can see how you could consider that choice selfish. In that line of thought, so is choosing to get an education, going to university. Also buying food, a car, a house, general things that are a given in a quality life these days. Spending $10 on a fast food combo when 10 African children (I made that number up) could all be fed with that amount of money. Shame on you for being so selfish.

So you're basically arguing that selfishness isn't wrong. Not going to touch that.

 

Ok, unless your goal in life is to actually accomplish something of lasting value.

Having kids is the opposite of accomplishing anything of value. An accomplishment would imply skill or talent, which getting pregnant takes none of. Let's put it this way: anything that your dog can do is not considered an accomplishment.

 

I'm sorry for your inability to keep your pants on. Good luck with that.

See above post.

[PhoenixFlare500]

Women try to get pregnant all the time without telling their partners. You can never trust a woman when she says she's on the pill.

You got some serious trust issues... Or maybe you just have terrible taste in women.

[PhoenixFlare500]

Ever met a mom in undergrad? Notice how they all get **** marks because they're too busy changing diapers? That's the proof.

Actually I never have talked to a student mother about her marks. So no. And tons of non-parent students also get pretty terrible marks.

 

MD/PhDs are a whole other story. First, the difference between a PhD and kids is that after your time off of medical school, your PhD is done for good, but your kids stay with you until they get a job (which nowadays, takes about 25 years). And a PhD is part of your program, so you're not taking time off. PhD/MDs become clinical scientists, not family doctors, so whether they are worse docs or not is moot.

You could argue that this researcher didn't need to do 4 years of med to be an effective researcher in their area, and they could've just done a PhD with some "extra-curricular" background research/information gathering without taking your precious medical school spot away.

 

So you're basically arguing that selfishness isn't wrong. Not going to touch that.

With your definition of selfish, no it isn't wrong. What you didn't get was that I was implying you had a terrible definition of the word "selfish".

 

Having kids is the opposite of accomplishing anything of value. An accomplishment would imply skill or talent, which getting pregnant takes none of. Let's put it this way: anything that your dog can do is not considered an accomplishment.

I meant lasting value as in raising kids that will eventually be productive and actually have lives of their own, not just knocking up your girlfriend and then beating her up for getting pregnant.