humhum Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 For all of you who are going through the anxieties of applying to med school, here is a bit of perspective to help you keep grounded and hopeful - especially if your anxiety comes from the constant message that med school is reserved for elite of the elite. That is definitely not the case. Even if you don't get in this time around, it is only inevitable that you will on future attempts. The only way to fail is to quit too early. There is a spot waiting for you at UBC if you want it. To start off, if you are a BC resident, you are already ~20% there. The acceptance rate for in-province students is ~19% for men, and ~24% for women. Including all applicant (OOP and IPs), the rate is closer to 13-15%. These are really excellent odds - assuming your GPA is not too far off the wrong side of the bell curve. The pessimist might say that there is a 3/4 or 4/5 chance of failure. I say who cares, because that means if you apply five times, then it is almost guaranteed you will get in. For sake of comparison, you may want to compare to the stats for applicants to graduate school at various departments at UBC. Keep in mind the numbers below is from people who had to complete an undergraduate degree. UBC med accepted no less than 33 students last cycle who didn't even have a degree completed. Also hidden behind the details is that fact that a very large number of these applicants don't apply until they secure a federal or provincial scholarships before applying. (i.e. in a manner of speaking they have already been filtered before applying). Admission rates: Psychology - Masters = 9% (!) - PhD = 9% Anthropology - Masters = 14% - PhD = 14% Pharmaceutical Sciences - Masters or PhD = 8% Geography - Masters or PhD = 19% Art History - masters = 18% - PhD = 18% Statistics: - masters = 14% - PhD = 14% Comp Sci: - masters = 13% - PhD = 14% History: - Masters = 24% - PhD = 24% Electrical % Comp eng - Masters or PhD - 21% Others fields of engineering, neuroscience, as well as mathematics all have acceptance rates ranging from 18 to 24%. I have never heard of an applicant not getting into grad school. They just keep trying different schools, until one works. It is the same with med schools. The average Canadian med student applies 3 times before getting in (although this number may be outdated now, comes from U of C's dean from a couple of years back). So regardless of what news you hear this application cycle, don't waste too much time worry about your future. If medicine is your passion, then that is what you will do. It just might play a little hard to get at first. Once you are in, you will see for yourself that med students are just normal as the next person, and very rarely more gifted or more accomplished than yourself. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xkittens Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Haha mann are you for real you're comparing the calibre of students applying to arts history to premeds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StayHappy Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticalStudent Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 everyone mad? Maybe a bit when (if?) I get rejected... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPlanet Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Sure buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucks_14 Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Getting an 87% average is not easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 I don't know if I would say it is easy either, let's focus just on the psychology graduate school example. Getting into one of those programs is also quite an accomplishment and I already knew it was very competitive and have had friends apply 3x's before landing a spot. You also need to consider that the number of programs is greater, I am not sure if the stats you mention are the handed of getting in overall, but there are probably close to 30 universities in Canada with psych programs and 13 English speaking medical schools. I understand you want to be positive, but no getting into medical school is not easy and neither is getting a Ph.D! Another point to consider is the pool of applicants, and the entrance requirements (GPA, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
武田信玄 Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Op should've ended the post with "u mad bro?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garlic Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 I, for one, am comforted a bit by what you've written here, humhum. Thanks for taking the time to give us some encouragement! These months of radio silence have been disconcerting, so this is a nice reminder to keep things in perspective and not sweat what we can't control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBrownguy Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 In reality this is true, it just hurts as a third time applicant. UBC is probably one of (if not the easiest) med schools to get into in Canada. everyone mad? Ubc is the second highest ranked MD program in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arztin Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 OP was trying to be cheerful. No need to start hating on him. @BBrownguy, what does 2nd ranked MD programme even mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medafter30 Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Thank you for the encouragement humhum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 You have to realize there is also a large population on both the masters side and the professional school side, who just apply because they have no other options with their prior degree.So the numbers of competitiveness aren't as stark as they seem on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humhum Posted November 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 I am happy to hear that some were able to take away a positive feeling, I wrote it for you. Getting a rejection can be devastating, and I have had my fair share many times in my academic career. The thing to realize is that - very unfortunately - the culture of medicine indulges in its aura of prestige, distinction, and status. This indocrination begins with the application process, where everyone buys into the mantra that coming into this profession is an exclusive privilage of the elite - with elite being defined either in terms of your IQ and "wordliness" points, where in reality the superficial differences in academic performance or non-academic accolodates is often tightly coupled to the degree of affluence of the applicants. The mantra is incessently spread because it serves those who want feel they are part of the elite; after all, just like everything else in our elitist society, in order for a group to be worshipped and praised as gods, another group needs to feel they are lesser in ability and capacity. This is very basic rule of hierarchy and status, whether you measure it money units or else. God-forbid we should ever attempt to be kind and egaltarian. It is strange that for all ethics and empathy they want to teach us in medical school, so little emphasis is placed on the importance of humility. By its very nature, empathy cannot exist in individuals who cannot be humble and solemn.The truth is that there many doctors out there who never should been allowed to become doctors, and many other hopefuls who deserve it the most but still fight an uphill battle to become doctors. It breaks my heart talking to people who innately embody all the ideals of medicine, but the doors are closed to them for no reasons other than misplaced priorities and values in the selection process. I got in, but I have no illusion that there were others who deserved it just as much or more, but they didn't. If you are one of those people who deeply burns to do medicine for all the reasons - which is to care for people at their most vulnerable states, and can't imagine doing anything else - I just want to say please don't let the rejection dishearten you. Try and try again - you haven't tried hard enough if you gave up before applying 20 times, and yes, it is more and more common for people as old as their late 30s and early 40s to apply and get in. It is never too late. Your future patients, and I as your future colleague, need more people like you.It should tell you enough that there are premed students here who balk at the suggestion that doing an "art" degree could be most challenging and demanding than doing medicine. Well, reality check, there are many professions and academic endeavors that are much more demanding than medicine. The only thing they lack is an inflated prestige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathToMed Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 ... especially if your anxiety comes from the constant message that med school is reserved for elite of the elite. Haha mann are you for real you're comparing the calibre of students applying to arts history to premeds? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjZuGas6yRQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadow_knight Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 I am happy to hear that some were able to take away a positive feeling, I wrote it for you. Getting a rejection can be devastating, and I have had my fair share many times in my academic career. The thing to realize is that - very unfortunately - the culture of medicine indulges in its aura of prestige, distinction, and status. This indocrination begins with the application process, where everyone buys into the mantra that coming into this profession is an exclusive privilage of the elite - with elite being defined either in terms of your IQ and "wordliness" points, where in reality the superficial differences in academic performance or non-academic accolodates is often tightly coupled to the degree of affluence of the applicants. The mantra is incessently spread because it serves those who want feel they are part of the elite; after all, just like everything else in our elitist society, in order for a group to be worshipped and praised as gods, another group needs to feel they are lesser in ability and capacity. This is very basic rule of hierarchy and status, whether you measure it money units or else. God-forbid we should ever attempt to be kind and egaltarian. It is strange that for all ethics and empathy they want to teach us in medical school, so little emphasis is placed on the importance of humility. By its very nature, empathy cannot exist in individuals who cannot be humble and solemn. The truth is that there many doctors out there who never should been allowed to become doctors, and many other hopefuls who deserve it the most but still fight an uphill battle to become doctors. It breaks my heart talking to people who innately embody all the ideals of medicine, but the doors are closed to them for no reasons other than misplaced priorities and values in the selection process. I got in, but I have no illusion that there were others who deserved it just as much or more, but they didn't. If you are one of those people who deeply burns to do medicine for all the reasons - which is to care for people at their most vulnerable states, and can't imagine doing anything else - I just want to say please don't let the rejection dishearten you. Try and try again - you haven't tried hard enough if you gave up before applying 20 times, and yes, it is more and more common for people as old as their late 30s and early 40s to apply and get in. It is never too late. Your future patients, and I as your future colleague, need more people like you. It should tell you enough that there are premed students here who balk at the suggestion that doing an "art" degree could be most challenging and demanding than doing medicine. Well, reality check, there are many professions and academic endeavors that are much more demanding than medicine. The only thing they lack is an inflated prestige. Quite true. Academic performance and your NAQ profile are determined to an important degree by your affluency status. People from underprivileged backgrounds don't get to choose between what job to take and what to ditch, and need to maximize their working hours whenever they can. Financial security, prestige and importantly authority, are important attractions to medicine. Prestige is also strongly tied to the "eventual" salary down the road, It would be interesting to see by what % the applications to medicine decrease if you reduce the pay. People would move to perhaps........ teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathToMed Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 It would be interesting to see by what % the applications to medicine decrease if you reduce the pay. People would move to perhaps........ 'teaching'.As an unemployed teacher whose, believe it or not, fallback plan is medicine, I find this very offensive. Yes, you heard me correctly - statistically I have a greater chance of getting into medical school than I do of finding permanent teaching work in my area (based on comparing the applicant:success ratio). So what now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humhum Posted November 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 Hey MathToMed, I absolutely believe you, and I think it is tragic that this is the case. It is crime how undervalued our teachers are. Talk about the most important determinant of a society's health, whether visceral or metaphysical, and I can't think of one profession more important than teaching. Teachers and the educational system is at the core of everything, and should be the most praised in our society - much more than physicians. Study after study has confirmed that the quality and degree of education one receives the number factor that predicts not only physical health, but every single metric that we want to measure in our ideas about quality of life. Any incremental support we can provide to teachers will pay infinite dividends decades down the road. Physicians bask in their six-figure salaries, and still get on the media to complain about how their compensations haven't kept with the times; meanwhile teachers can barely find jobs, and get scorned when they complain that their $40,000/year salaries can't pay the rent for a basement in East Van. It is disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticalStudent Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Any incremental support we can provide to teachers will pay infinite dividends decades down the road. Physicians bask in their six-figure salaries, and still get on the media to complain about how their compensations haven't kept with the times; meanwhile teachers can barely find jobs, and get scorned when they complain that their $40,000/year salaries can't pay the rent for a basement in East Van. It is disgusting. The average salary for teachers in B.C. is about $72,000 (pre-2014-strike). The minimum is about $48,000 (or $52,000 if they have their bachelor's of education and a master's degree). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 The average salary for teachers in B.C. is about $72,000 (pre-2014-strike). The minimum is about $48,000 (or $52,000 if they have their bachelor's of education and a master's degree). Yes, but most teachers struggle to even find part-time work for the first 5-10 years of their career. Yes the wages for the ones who have full-time work is decent, but the fact is there are a whole lot of teachers-on-call and many underemployed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fugacity Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 At the same time, it is fair to say that a lot of medical school graduates do not have jobs either. This is especially true for some specialties. Overall, you just have to go back to the old saying, only do medicine if you still think it is an ideal career for you when you ignore "the money". Only then will you tolerate the long hours, the seemingly endless years of education followed by fellowships, and the uncertainty that you may not find a position for years after you graduate. As it is coming close to the time interview invites are sent out, I want to encourage those rejected to keep trying. The evaluation process is incredibly subjective, and you may have to try a couple times before the right person recognizes your talents. Nonetheless, if you ask anyone who's tried multiple times (up to five) to get in, they'll tell you it's worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 At the same time, it is fair to say that a lot of medical school graduates do not have jobs either. This is especially true for some specialties. Overall, you just have to go back to the old saying, only do medicine if you still think it is an ideal career for you when you ignore "the money". Only then will you tolerate the long hours, the seemingly endless years of education followed by fellowships, and the uncertainty that you may not find a position for years after you graduate. As it is coming close to the time interview invites are sent out, I want to encourage those rejected to keep trying. The evaluation process is incredibly subjective, and you may have to try a couple times before the right person recognizes your talents. Nonetheless, if you ask anyone who's tried multiple times (up to five) to get in, they'll tell you it's worth it. Very true too, but at the same time, a decent portion of those graduates might be a bit too picky too (self-selection to wanting to stay in big metropolitan centres as an example). But definitely true, just to add a bit of context to that. Perfect message otherwise and thank you for your great posts and all contributions you mods make to the community Fugacity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humhum Posted November 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 At the same time, it is fair to say that a lot of medical school graduates do not have jobs either. This is especially true for some specialties. Overall, you just have to go back to the old saying, only do medicine if you still think it is an ideal career for you when you ignore "the money". Only then will you tolerate the long hours, the seemingly endless years of education followed by fellowships, and the uncertainty that you may not find a position for years after you graduate. Even here I'd suggest that the common opinion paints unfair comparison, comparing the struggles of teachers and other professions to those of specialists. True that we are graduating armies of speciliasts that will not find a position, it is still important to remind everyone that before they got to that point they had five years of gauranteed salary at the tax payer's expense, with full benefits: http://www.carms.ca/en/match-process/your-application/salaries-benefits/british-columbia/ And those that don't have a position, they can still land a fellowship year after year at a pretty good salary. Sure, the salary is nowhere as high as attendings, but the poverty line is no where on the horizon. I can't think of another profession that gaurantees you a salary during your training, and at such high rates. The sons and daughters of physicans will laugh, but the children of the middle class coming from other professions find it hard to believe that we have it so cushie. And it is very rare not to get matched. Sure, not matched to your top choices, but it is nearly guaranteed everyone gets a match. And then there is general practice - the worst case scenerio (actually my top choice) is still heavenly compared to any other STEM professions I can think of. Mathemathics gradutes with PhDs at the age of 33 are begging for any job that pays them $45,000 - and will get laid off within couple of years when the corp finds replacement for him in india at 1/5th the salary-, meanwhile here we are with our fresh MDs at the ripe age of 24 getting paid a cool $50k - to get trained (!)-, and never have to worry about getting laid off, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticalStudent Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Yes, but most teachers struggle to even find part-time work for the first 5-10 years of their career. Yes the wages for the ones who have full-time work is decent, but the fact is there are a whole lot of teachers-on-call and many underemployed. Yeah, the point wasn't that they can't find work - which is true - but that humhum's figures are incorrect. If you want to have a discussion about teachers and their salaries, it at least needs to be honest. There is a shortage of some kinds of teachers, so we can't toss them all into one grouping. Some specialised teachers are in-demand in B.C., but of those who aren't specialised 2/3rds are unemployed. For those that don't mind expatriating, there are many teaching jobs overseas. It's not that there is a lack of teaching positions; it's that there's a lack in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Yeah, the point wasn't that they can't find work - which is true - but that humhum's figures are incorrect. If you want to have a discussion about teachers and their salaries, it at least needs to be honest. There is a shortage of some kinds of teachers, so we can't toss them all into one grouping. Some specialised teachers are in-demand in B.C., but of those who aren't specialised 2/3rds are unemployed. For those that don't mind expatriating, there are many teaching jobs overseas. It's not that there is a lack of teaching positions; it's that there's a lack in Canada. Good point, thanks for the clarification. At the same time, when talking about unemployed physicians, they can always go somewhere else just like other professions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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