Getting Into Ubc Medicine Is (Relatively) Easy

[MathToMed]

The average salary for teachers in B.C. is about $72,000 (pre-2014-strike). The minimum is about $48,000 (or $52,000 if they have their bachelor's of education and a master's degree).

 

 

Just want to point out that this actually isn't as unreasonable as it initially sounds. I'll be using BC's figures:

 

For a level 5 qualification, you need an honours bachelor's degree and a B.Ed. When you start out, you get $47,539. This is as soon as you find permanent work, the way it's set up now (at least in Ontario, which is what I'm familiar with) there is a mandatory period of at least 9 months on the supply list, and at least 1 year on an "LTO List" before you can even apply for permanent work, let alone land the job.

Each year (to a point), a teacher's salary increases. After 9 years of additional experience, teachers top out at $74,353.

For a level 6 qualification, you need additional qualifications - either a predetermined, yet extensive number of specialties (special ed, ESL, honours specialist in your subject, etc), or a masters degree (either in education or in your speciality). For instance, I would fall into this category as I hold a B.Sc. an M.Sc. and a B.Ed. If you're in this category it works the same, but you start at $52,362 and top out at $81,561.

 

If the teaching average is indeed $72,000 as it is reported to be (although I'm certain this does not include supply/occasional teachers as they make much less), then that means there are a disproportionate number of older teachers at the top of the pay grid (9+ years of permanent work experience), because it's estimated that as few as 1% of teachers fall under level 6 qualifications (and there are also levels 1-4 for things like trades, or those with general degrees), and so the majority of pay "rankings" fall below $72,000 with the exception of the upper tiers of level 5/6. I mean think about it, if teachers are as "dumb" as everyone thinks they are, do you really think they'd complete masters degrees in droves?

 

For this reason, you should be cautious of the word "average" as in any situation, as this is not synonymous with "typical." I don't think it's unreasonable for someone with three degrees to make a salary of $52K, after a minimum of approximately 3 years of working (may vary from place to place) and after about 12 years, to make $81.5K.

 

For those that don't mind expatriating, there are many teaching jobs overseas. It's not that there is a lack of teaching positions; it's that there's a lack in Canada.

 

Note that this is precisely identical to saying that there are many spots in med school overseas.

[humhum]

Right, our unemployed and hugely underpaid teachers should just pack it up and go somewhere else, instead of sticking around in the country that invested in their education and stop making us all uncomfortable by pointing out our society's declining values.

 

Meanwhile, we should address some real serious issues, like how our opthalmologists can't find a spot to park their yatch anywhere downtown, even on their $800,000/yr paycheques.

[SkepticalStudent]

 

Note that this is precisely identical to saying that there are many spots in med school overseas.

Hmm, I would debate that. Med schools are competitive overseas, also. And even if you do find a spot in an overseas medical school, once you finish you are in a bind for residency, and in a bind if you try to repatriate and do your residency in your passport country. With teaching, you can go overseas but it's not as if you are blocked from finding jobs in your country of origin, although it would make it more difficult (on a pragmatic level, since in-person interviews would be difficult). International schools are also doing a number of things to make teacher packages much more attractive. The salaries are also higher.

 

Also I don't think the cost of medical school overseas is identical to the cost of teaching overseas. You aren't paying tens of thousands of dollars to teach overseas, but you may get paid tens of thousands of dollars to teach overseas (and get typical package benefits like domestic help, club memberships, etc. depending on the international school). There also isn't the same sort of difficulties with pre-requisites and whatnot. Haha now I'm getting lost on your comparison. Can you clarify what you meant by teaching spots overseas being identical to spots in med schools overseas?

 

 

 

For this reason, you should be cautious of the word "average" as in any situation, as this is not synonymous with "typical." I don't think it's unreasonable for someone with three degrees to make a salary of $52K, after a minimum of approximately 3 years of working (may vary from place to place) and after about 12 years, to make $81.5K.

 

Yeah, I should have clarified. I agree with you that, if we drew up a histogram, the distribution would be skewed. The median would be a better reflection of the typical salary, I might think.

[Chaplin]

Right, our unemployed and hugely underpaid teachers should just pack it up and go somewhere else, instead of sticking around in the country that invested in their education and stop making us all uncomfortable by pointing out our society's declining values.

 

Meanwhile, we should address some real serious issues, like how our opthalmologists can't find a spot to park their yatch anywhere downtown, even on their $800,000/yr paycheques.

 

That is a big exaggeration. Sure you can argue that its an underpaid profession, but not hugely. Along with pointing out a society's declining values, they should also work to keep kids from dropping out of high school and spending less time smoking crack.

Beyond having the same occupational objective (public welfare, living quality & health improvement) the teacher and doctors work in detail is very different. It is fair enough to criticize specialists with excessive salaries, but on what lines can you draw comparisons between doctors and teachers pay. Their training, time commitment, and work is sufficiently different to make it illogical.

[MathToMed]

Hmm, I would debate that. 

 

You're free to do so, but I respectfully disagree with the points you're raising. I don't want to go off on a whole tangent and pick things apart point by point, so I'll try to simply concede one point and clarify: naturally, medicine is more costly and time intensive education compared with a B.Ed. but that's not quite the point I'm trying to make. 

 

Premeds hope to go abroad to get trained and then return to their country of origin. Teachers have already been trained, already invested money in their education, and even though they have done their training in Canada (largely), it's more analogous to the case of an IMG who is already trained, but has to struggle and fight tooth and nail to return to their country of origin for limited spots.

 

Remember, teacher's education programs are actually quite competitive. Maybe not Canadian Med School competitive, but International Med School competitive? Quite possibly, the cutoff in my year was somewhere in the low 90's during the final two years of study if I recall correctly (I would not have been accepted if I didn't have a masters, I'm sure of it, though this depends on one's chosen specialty as well). It's really not that hard to be internationally educated in medicine and remain abroad in an unprivileged country. In fact I have about 8 international schools begging me to apply based on my MCAT scores (which aren't even spectacular) and I'm sure many of you can relate to getting these emails. I would argue that it's comparably difficult to be admitted to a canadian teacher's ed program, then travel to the exact same country to remain there as a teacher. In both cases, the return to their country of origin is what's the particularly difficult step.

 

And in both cases (this being my initial point) this is much easier said than done, particularly if life has you by the nuts.

[lokiki]

It's insanely hard to get a job as a teacher in Canada. In BC, particularly.

 

Back to the original topic for me though.

 

I know you mean well, OP, when you say that's it's relatively easy. But I applied 7x and I can tell you, with all my heart, that getting into UBC med was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. If you are starting out from a very non-trad background, as some of us have, it's 5x as hard for us. It might be "easy" starting from scratch, but not for me. Come find me in class if you want to know how hard it was for me. I'm more than willing to share.

[StayHappy]

.

[MathToMed]

As a third time applicant, you give me hope.

 

Just curious, of these 7x how many times did you interview? I feel a bit hopeless, as I have interviewed and been rejected two years in a row

 

If you've interviewed twice, you're just a stone's throw from an acceptance! Good luck!

[thsc]

I think most of us are mistinterpreting OP`s most, or perhaps it`s just me, but the message that I get from the original post is that for a BC resident, it`s relatively EASIER to get into UBC than any other med school in the country, which I fully agree with. That doesn't mean that it's 'easy' to get in, but based on the statistics for UBC, I think BC residents have the best chances, especially considering the fact that they have the same opportunity to get into an Ontario med school compared to an Ontario applicant, but not vice versa. 

[SkepticalStudent]

You're free to do so, but I respectfully disagree with the points you're raising. I don't want to go off on a whole tangent and pick things apart point by point, so I'll try to simply concede one point and clarify: naturally, medicine is more costly and time intensive education compared with a B.Ed. but that's not quite the point I'm trying to make. 

 

Can I PM you? I don't want to keep pushing the thread even farther off course, but I want to be properly informed about this and find out the holes in my reasoning!

 

 

I think most of us are mistinterpreting OP`s most, or perhaps it`s just me, but the message that I get from the original post is that for a BC resident, it`s relatively EASIER to get into UBC than any other med school in the country, which I fully agree with. That doesn't mean that it's 'easy' to get in, but based on the statistics for UBC, I think BC residents have the best chances, especially considering the fact that they have the same opportunity to get into an Ontario med school compared to an Ontario applicant, but not vice versa. 

Yeah, this was my interpretation (that BC applicants have a much better chance of getting into UBC), although I thought that some Ontario-based med schools showed a preference for IP applicants?

[thsc]

Yeah, this was my interpretation (that BC applicants have a much better chance of getting into UBC), although I thought that some Ontario-based med schools showed a preference for IP applicants?

I think Mac is the only one, but Mac's program is much smaller than UBC's and considering the stats again, a BC resident has a significantly higher success rate with UBC than an Ontario student does with Mac, so OP's claim still holds true. 

[武田信玄]

MathtoMed: would you say the current saturation in the education job market, and to a lesser extent in the healthcare job market, is a result of our socialist-style (non-profit) job placement system working together with our capitalist-style (for-profit) postsecondary system?

[humhum]

That is a big exaggeration. Sure you can argue that its an underpaid profession, but not hugely. Along with pointing out a society's declining values, they should also work to keep kids from dropping out of high school and spending less time smoking crack.

Beyond having the same occupational objective (public welfare, living quality & health improvement) the teacher and doctors work in detail is very different. It is fair enough to criticize specialists with excessive salaries, but on what lines can you draw comparisons between doctors and teachers pay. Their training, time commitment, and work is sufficiently different to make it illogical.

 

But do tell, what it is that makes us so special as physicians in our training, time commitment, and work compared to other professionals who work their ass off just as much and more, such that we are entitled to so much privilege, pampering, and financial reward?

 

Is it the med school entrance? As we have established, everything from biochemical physics, clinical psychology, to physiotherapy can have equally or more competitive to get into.

 

Is it the responsibility? The number 1 (or number 2) determinant of health is education, not healthcare. Not just access to education, but actual quality of education. A teacher's responsibility and impact on people's live far exceeds that of any physician.

 

Is it the time commitment? Our MDs take 4 years, and many people get into the program without any previous degree. Clinical biomedical physics have do PhDs that take no less than 7 years, on top of their 4 years in undergrad in something utlra intense like physics or mathematics. Engineers nowadays require a typical of 5 years to finish, and even then with a crushing course load that make our MD curriculum load look like high school. Then lets talk about post-graduate training. We call it residency, with a fat pay cheque to go with it, and everyone is guaranteed to get matched to some spot, even if it is their least favorite. Meanwhile, in every other profession, post-graduate training amounts to walking around like a ghost with a CV begging someone to give a chance to have some work experience, even if there is no pay (i.e. internship). There is not a professional job posting anywhere in any field that does not say "minimum of 5 years of experience". True that many specialists can't find a position anywhere in Canada, but even the worst of them has no problem landing fellowship after fellowship every year that pays them pretty damn close to 6 figures.

 

Or is it the working hours on job? If you think resident night calls are bad, try a month as a modern day consultant, bottom of the rung associate lawyer, a starting teacher, or a young business owner. These people claw their way into finding any sort of thing that brings them some income doing something they remotely enjoy, and once they do, a 80 hour work week is a good week. Hell, any week they are not laid off, or their business is not going bankrupt is a good week. This is the reality being a profession in the modern capitalist world, and here we are confidently declaring that the $70,000/year that we are paying teachers after 10 years of work experience is not an appallingly low compensation. And that is after 10 years. They start off much lower than than, just enough to pay the rent in a basement somewhere in east van.

[lokiki]

But do tell, what it is that makes us so special as physicians in our training, time commitment, and work compared to other professionals who work their ass off just as much and more, such that we are entitled to so much privilege, pampering, and financial reward?

 

I"m just not sure entitlement is something to be explained. It's just an attitude some people have.

 

As far as some of the other points you have made, I might be in the minority in our class but I will make over 2x as much money as I have ever made in my life each year of my residency, and I will almost certainly work fewer hours. I know I'll have it cushy. And med school is the easiest courseload I have taken in years.

 

I was partner to a substitute teacher for years and I would never ever wish that lifestyle. It is brutal. And nearly impossible to find a job.

[herewego]

Med school is the easiest load in years? I believe 1st semester of 1st year and possibly 2nd of first year is the easiest course load, but ask any upper years how 2nd year is. I don't think you will be saying the same once the "easy" days of PRIN come to an end! Enjoy them while they last