Did You Go Into Medicine For The Money

[Birdy]

[bah, ignore this. I hadn't refreshed the thread before I hit reply and the post to which I replied had already been well-addressed. Seems we can't delete our posts anymore?]

[makingfetchhappen]

You should save this quote, if and when you matriculate, and read it some morning when you're post-call from a service - heavy rotation. I'm curious whether your perspective changes...

 

Edited to add: Actually, read it some morning when you're post-call and somebody's mother died because you f-'d up.  Then tell me it's paid work like any other.

It's true that you never know what something is like until you get there. I hope that I do get to find out someday! 

 

But, there's a pretty interesting amount of assuming that medicine is so different than everything else. Just because I am not a doctor doesn't mean I have not stayed up working all night before. Actually I have literally done so HUNDREDS of times. I really hope that I don't negligently kill someone ever, but I do realize as a doctor I would have to deal with death. It doesn't mean I haven't had that type of responsibility before. It's not like I have never counselled a suicidal person and gotten them to a safe bed, never helped someone who was arrested get out on bail, or never had to tell someone that their life savings were lost. 

[NLengr]

I've done medicine and worked as an engineer. I've got multiple close friends who are engineers, lawyers and CA's (now CPAs I guess). I probably have one of the best perspectives of anyone comparing medicine to other professions. I do not know anybody who trained for three professions, but I suppose they could trump me if they wanted to.

 

I still maintain it's unlike any other profession. That's not to say other professions aren't difficult or they don't work hard or provide a valuable service, but medicine IMO is a truly unique experience. It's hard to explain unless you've lived it.

 

Also, you will kill someone. Statistically 7 people will die as a direct result of a physicians actions during their career. If you are a surgeon or some other high risk specialty, that number will be higher.

[aaronjw]

I really hope that I don't negligently kill someone ever, but I do realize as a doctor I would have to deal with death. It doesn't mean I haven't had that type of responsibility before. It's not like I have never counselled a suicidal person and gotten them to a safe bed, never helped someone who was arrested get out on bail, or never had to tell someone that their life savings were lost. 

 

It a bit disingenuous to compare the above to an action taken in which a physician kills a patient while trying to help them. Bearing ultimate responsibility for that consequence cannot be easy. 

[makingfetchhappen]

It a bit disingenuous to compare the above to an action taken in which a physician kills a patient while trying to help them. Bearing ultimate responsibility for that consequence cannot be easy. 

I was responding to the comment that said someone's mother died (in this hypothetical) because I screwed up. That would be horrible. Sure people will die when you are treated them, that is true for all health professionals. One of my good friends is a nurse. She says sometimes people are so on the edge they might die just from being turned over in bed. I agree, it's totally not the same thing when someone is dying and its inevitable, or where it is because of your error. 

[thsc]

I was responding to the comment that said someone's mother died (in this hypothetical) because I screwed up. That would be horrible. Sure people will die when you are treated them, that is true for all health professionals. One of my good friends is a nurse. She says sometimes people are so on the edge they might die just from being turned over in bed. I agree, it's totally not the same thing when someone is dying and its inevitable, or where it is because of your error. 

Often people say they prefer to be a physician over a nurse because a physician bears greater responsibility and the ultimate responsibility for what happens to the patient. Why do you think anyone would want this type of responsibility considering the possibility and likelihood that the physician will (by mistake) kill someone one day and be response for that as well. 

[makingfetchhappen]

I've done medicine and worked as an engineer. I've got multiple close friends who are engineers, lawyers and CA's (now CPAs I guess). I probably have one of the best perspectives of anyone comparing medicine to other professions. I do not know anybody who trained for three professions, but I suppose they could trump me if they wanted to.

 

I still maintain it's unlike any other profession. That's not to say other professions aren't difficult or they don't work hard or provide a valuable service, but medicine IMO is a truly unique experience. It's hard to explain unless you've lived it.

 

Also, you will kill someone. Statistically 7 people will die as a direct result of a physicians actions during their career. If you are a surgeon or some other high risk specialty, that number will be higher.

 

I agree that medicine is unique, but not above all others. Being a nurse or a paramedic is also pretty unique. So is being a cop or a fire fighter. So is being a sex worker!

 

I think being a soldier might be the most unique, no?

[aaronjw]

Sex worker sounds fun

 

bowchikabowbow lmao

[makingfetchhappen]

Often people say they prefer to be a physician over a nurse because a physician bears greater responsibility and the ultimate responsibility for what happens to the patient. Why do you think anyone would want this type of responsibility considering the possibility and likelihood that the physician will (by mistake) kill someone one day and be response for that as well. 

I actually wrote about that way near the start of the thread. Being in the situation where you have a fiduciary relationship is a lot of responsibility and it is stressful, but it's also very rewarding in my opinion. That's why I can't bring myself to go the physician assistant route even though they do the same work as doctors. I want to have the responsibility a the end of the day. 

 

Also I get a lot of my job satisfaction as a lawyer from this responsibility. I like to be the person who is making decisions and helping others to do so. It's very rewarding, even though it means that if I mess up, I will get sued, etc. When I went from being an articling student to a full lawyer, I took on that responsibility (as all lawyers do). It's a little daunting at first, but then most people grow to enjoy it. I think that medicine is similar that way. I know the doctors that I know are currently adjusting to that new role and it's fun to hear their stories. (I'm a few years ahead of them because articling is only one year, and also the doctors I know didn't start med school until I was almost done law school, cause it's so damn hard to get into med, lol).

[ralk]

Couldn't have asked for a better time for a discussion like this to be on premed101. I'm curious to get some insight from either rmorelan and ralk especially; if you're aiming for family med what is a realistic earning potential you can expect if you want to work in the GTA specifically. I'm at a point where I'm debating between a career in medicine or pursuing a field like investment banking or management consulting.

 

The issue with the latter is that I would have to attend Ivey at Western to get the appropriate recruiting environment to be successful in landing a job in such a competitive industry, arguably more competitive than getting into a Canadian medical school if you're aiming for a top firm - that's an argument for another time though. Ivey has an average around 80 with vey low standard deviations, having an 85 means you're essentially a top student in the program so it would eliminate the chance of having a solid GPA for medical school, plus the cost of the program is pretty expensive so I wouldn't be looking to do medschool after it anyway.

 

I know myself well and I've already eliminated the thought of doing anything else than family medicine seeing how it is difficult for specialists to find jobs and I've seen what my family doctor does and I can honestly see myself doing it. My concern is that I might be pursuing medicine for the stability, relatively high income.

 

Do you to have an innate passion for anatomy or physiology to want to pursue something like family med? I find myself more interested in reading bloomberg articles and reading up on the performance of companies, rather than medical literature.

 

Also, I have a fear of needles and I am not the best at looking at really bad injuries. My fear is that I've worked extremely hard for my GPA in science courses and I don't want to lose out on a career that is stable, I have somewhat of an interest in.       

 

Family physicians salaries in Toronto are likely on the low end of the 200-250k typical range for family physicians, if only because there are no financial incentives to practice in the GTA and it's one of the few places in Canada that may actually have enough family practitioners to meet demand.

 

I wouldn't say you have to be exceptionally passionate about anatomy of physiology to practice family medicine. You do need to understand those things, of course, and keep up with current clinical standards, but family medicine has a lot more to do with interpersonal competence than with in-depth knowledge of basic sciences. I'd say it's more important that you're passionate about working with and helping people (of all types), along with having the interpersonal skills to match.

 

Family medicine is very different than a job in financial management (which is in itself a fairly broad field), especially at the higher end of things. Money and lifestyle matter, a lot, but it's nothing compared with doing what you enjoy at work every day. I'm not discounting the possibility that someone could be equally happy being a practicing family physician as they would be as an investment banker, but I suspect the overlap is pretty small. It's definitely worth analyzing why you might want to pursue medicine - it's not something to enter into just for the money or stability.

 

I wouldn't be too concerned about being squeamish around needles or horrible injuries, that's more common than you'd think. You get over it, one way or another. That said, even after giving hundreds of needles to others without any difficulty, I still have to look the other way when I get one myself 

 

Lastly, remember that when applying to medical school, you're applying to medicine, not any specialty. If you do go this route, you might think Family Med is what's right for you, but that can change.

 

For example...

 

1) The specialty family/friends thought I would go for

2) The specialty most of my classmates think I'm going for

3) The specialty I wanted before getting into medical school

4) The specialty I wanted the week I started medical school

5) The specialty I'm currently aiming for

 

...are all different specialties. Your understanding of different specialties will change, as will your preferences - everyone goes through this (and I'm only a year and half into it!)

 

Also the thought of debt scares the hell out of me, that's why I would avoid international schools and american schools. I think medical school is pretty affordable in Canada and there's more security. I generally reflect on that Steve Job Stanford commencement speech where he mentioned the cost of Reed college to his parents, so financially those schools just don't make sense to me. 

 

Nevertheless, it's the thought of not wanting to go to the states or international that also makes me question if I should be pursuing medicine, as there are an inordinate number of individuals that go to these schools each year from Canada and bear the risks. 

 

Debt is a concern, even here in Canada, but debt is very manageable when attending Canadian schools. I had that initial shock when first figuring out how to pay for Med School, but you figure out how to deal with it. There are a number of ways to keep debt down as well - I might have a few dozen thousand of dollars of debt, but it's still a few dozen of thousand less than some of my colleagues.

 

That said, not wanting to take on the risks of going abroad in no way indicates whether medicine is right for you. In general, I never advise going overseas, and only going to the US if you have financial support or are aiming for a top-tier school, though there is certainly disagreement on that front. Medicine's great, but that doesn't mean it's worth every sacrifice possible. There's more to life than just a career and ultimately, medicine is still just a career, even if it is a very good one. Too many people go overseas not understanding that.

 

Hope that helps - feel free to PM me if you have any further questions. I'm still fairly early in my training and not super-knowledgeable about the business route, but I'll answer as best I can.

[makingfetchhappen]

To add to what ralk said I would say for the business side, think about what you want to be doing day-to-day.

The days of a family doctor are very different than those of a management consultant. From the consultants I know, it seems a lot of their time is dedicated to making Excel spreadsheets and crunching numbers. Do you enjoy doing that stuff? Some people like it, they see it as similar to solving puzzles for a living. Other people find it very dry. You will also not have nearly as much human interaction as a doctor does. Are you the type of person who likes to bang out documents on the computer all day or talk to people all day? 

 

Being interested in learning about business is different than working in it. I guess that's obvious, but think about the day to day. You said you are interested in financial projections. Would you enjoy writing those reports though? Some people do like it. I don't know a lot of people in finance, but I have a few friends who are in corporate law doing M and A and they actually seem to enjoy writing projections. 

A big downside to management consulting is that many of them travel a lot. Not fun travel like to Paris and L.A., un-fun travel like to Ohio in the winter time. Although I know one guy who has been in it for years and he does not seem to have to do that. It's something to look into though.

I believe the starting salary for management consulting in Toronto can be anywhere from $60K-$100K depending on the firm. I don't know much about investment banking. I believe that there is a lot of potential to make a great living, but it's really hard to get into in the first place. So if you go the business route, don't bank on getting into that, you will need a back-up. 

 

[MathToMed]

For me, unfortunately, $75K wouldn't be enough compensation. I mean this in the best possible way however, I'm not financially driven, but there are three primary factors to consider:

1) I like medicine and would be thankful for the opportunity to learn how to practice
2) I come from a very low income household (my family or four's (not including myself as I now live with my spouse) gross income last year was a little over $9000) and they're currently struggling financially
3) I have other well paying job prospects, which I could do within roughly a year, if I ever give up on medicine (particularly the actuarial sciences and financial mathematics)

If I studied medicine, it would be for me, not my family (who frankly, I owe more to than the strangers I would be potentially helping with medical care). I feel quite selfish for pursuing it, considering I've spent significant time and resources in an attempt to do so which could have gone to say, helping my family not become homeless. $75K simply would not be enough compensation to have to penny pinch through medical school, balance my finances, with my family's, with the cost of living in medical school. Medicine would already technically be my fourth career due to a string of pretty bad luck...but really, I can honestly say I'm proud of my accomplishments, given I've climbed out of the hole of being 'notoriously poor' for the majority of my life.

If I could snap my fingers and get through all the hardships of medical school without having time pass, I'd likely still do it...however if I walked out of med school earning $75K and a medical student's debt, my family will surely be homeless by then. But unfortunately I'm a math guy and crunched the numbers, given my current financial state, my spouse's feeling of wanting children (and being unable to afford them), as well as this pesky Time Value of Money concept, together it means I'd have to be a complete moron to do it. I'd give up whatever little it is that I do have in a high risk, low return scenario.

 

It may sound a bit corny or unrealistic to say, but I wholeheartedly mean it when I say I don't need any more than say $200K in my bank account and I would actually probably donate anything in excess of that to people like me. I don't need a big house or a boat or anything like that, I simply want to stop being so stressed out financially. It's probably the reason why I didn't perform quite as well as I could have in my undergrad (My GPA is on the low side). But then, people like me don't become successful.

 

In a perfect world, I'd do medicine regardless of the compensation. Unfortunately, real life.

[RGK]

I love every single word of this post. Also, I'm just going to add to what you said that some specialists don't find jobs now and do locums left and right...

me 2

[RGK]

Guys I am really loving this discussion but I would like to see more straightforward yes/no answers to the original question 

[thsc]

Guys I am really loving this discussion but I would like to see more straightforward yes/no answers to the original question 

NO!

[RGK]

NO for me too

[NLengr]

God no. I could make more money with a way way way way better lifestyle in my former career.

[Falling]

I'm going to say no - too much stress and time investment.

[RichardHammond]

No. Too many other options in health care with similar pay, less training, more affordable tuition, acceptable hours.

[bruhh]

The adcoms checking this thread must be going like "wait what? they told me they only wanted to help people! what happened to that?"  haha

[RichardHammond]

Haha or imagine everyone in this thread says they'd happily accept 75k and the provincial government lurks this thread and sees...

[iosmed]

This might be an interesting twist and maybe something Ontario should consider given the release of the Drummond report. Imagine medical school cost including a reasonable amount for living expenses was fully covered by the respective provincial governments, maybe physicians wouldn't expect as high of an income since they're not taking on debt. 

 

Maybe to sweeten the deal provide a certain amount that can be considered a small salary for being in medical school maybe like 10k a year. 

 

At that point if medicine, with no medschool debt would provide an income of 75k to family doctors and maybe a bit higher for certain more demanding specialities would you pursue medicine? 

[MathToMed]

^Interesting...and maybe. It would depend on the specialty and how intensive the training would be, but if it's your typical say, GP training, I'd likely take it.

The only problem is that may actually be fiscally worse due to the Time Value of Money (ie. 10K today is worth more than 10K in 5 years due to inflation, interest, etc). But it'd definitely solve my issue and make me feel decently capable of getting by in the interim.

[iosmed]

I don't think personally factoring in TVM for 10k would make a substantial difference compared to the deficit Ontario is in right now. If you can get GP salaries down to a third according to some figures that have been thrown out here it would more than compensate for the TMV of money.  

[iosmed]

TVM is relative, the first 10k that would be given in first year would have the most upfront potential and that would be probably due to potential earnings through interest. The last 10k whether it would be in third or fourth year would be negligible.