Did You Go Into Medicine For The Money

[rmorelan]

What does that even mean? Plenty of other healthcare fields make good money for decent hours, talking 80k+ per year. is that not considered a lot? Many, if they put in the same hours as doctors, would be 150k+, but easily with a bit of overtime here and there be 100k+.

 

Yeah I mean I would have to say that most of the moderately high end health care professions can definitely be the primary "breadwinner" - again anyone that is earning over 75K is above the median income in Canada for an entire family unit. You may not think that is enough money for your needs but I would say almost be definition at that point you could serve as the breadwinner etc.

[JohnGrisham]

I only JUST realized now that Rmorelan's DP is kermit the frog. I always thought it was a morph suit person. 

 

[rmorelan]

(ha, just playing with the moderator tools - still locked out of the profile image - interesting).

[rmorelan]

I only JUST realized now that Rmorelan's DP is kermit the frog. I always thought it was a morph suit person. 

 

 

ha - yeah it isn't that clear of a picture Someone asked once what character is closest to me in personality. Probably yeah, kermit.

[Falling]

I only JUST realized now that Rmorelan's DP is kermit the frog. I always thought it was a morph suit person. 

 

 

 

I can't look at his posts the same way ever again.

[rmorelan]

I can't look at his posts the same way ever again.

ha, what did you think that profile image was

[Falling]

ha, what did you think that profile image was

 

I don't know anymore

[rmorelan]

Who says that'll stay that way? The only reason physicians get to be so heavily involved in research is because they're allowed to, not because of any special aptitude or even training in research. Nurses are becoming increasingly involved in research either through graduate studies or simply due to career exposure - no reason PAs couldn't as well.

 

they also have usually at least an undergrad degree in a separate degree providing a starting skill set, not unusual to already have graduate degrees, there is requirement to do research in residency, it is a major part of a core canMeds role, and it is an real or implied requirement for progression in some branches of the medicine. Time for research is also structured into many staff positions where it often isn't in other fields.

 

absolutely though, there is no reason other cannot do research, and in fact they do. PAs are often heavily involved already in the day to day aspects of many research projects. I suspect that aspect of things will only increase with time.

 

also as other pointed out it certainly is not a required for doctors to do research - actually in our centre which is very research driven only about 30% of the doctors are actively involved in research. That is at an academic centre no less!

[bloh]

The problem with this question lies more in the audience. Most people in medicine are nurtured children with wealthy families who usually had fairly uneventful and comparateively easy journeys. Daddy pays for school. Mommy pays for food and books. Happy family goes to Mexico and various other vacations together (which Daddy pays for). They dabble in some overseas feel-good low paid work/volunteering. Nowhere along that journey are opportunities to learn the value of money and time. Furthermore, friends tend to be mirror images of that so they don't even get to see other opportunities out there. They don't have friends who finished a 4 year business degree and are now making 100,000$+/year working for Suncor/IMO/Any Company with a defined benefit pension, stock options and benefits out of the ass. Or bros with 2 year technical degrees who do some welding/pipefiting and take home 150,000. Or a freaking uneducated truck driver who gets fed and drives a stupid bus from an oil sand pit back and forth for 200,000.

 

So any financial questions are immedicately out of touch with reality because they aren't even next to a fence to judge the other side of the lawn.

 

 

Anyone that answers yes to the original question needs to be a darling and donate $200,000 to their local shelter to put their money where their mouth is. Residents are paid "well" if you ignore the fact that 15% of my salary goes towards interest on my student loans, tuition fees, CMPA insurance and parking.

[NLengr]

Third, residency is PAID! It is a good wage and good benefits too. I understand that it's a lot of long hours and all of that, but it's just paid work like any other. It doesn't count as "school". You cannot say "I went to school for 12 years". (Please stop saying that).

You do realize that residency is a post graduate training program run by the universities in Canada right? So residents are still in university. So people are correct when they lump it into school time.

 

It's hard to explain residency to someone who hasn't been through it. It's a truly unique experience and is in no way comparable to other professional training IMO. (I was a professional engineer before medicine. Most of my buddies are lawyers, engineers and CAs, so I have some perspective on the other non medicine professions).

[NLengr]

The problem with this question lies more in the audience. Most people in medicine are nurtured children with wealthy families who usually had fairly uneventful and comparateively easy journeys. Daddy pays for school. Mommy pays for food and books. Happy family goes to Mexico and various other vacations together (which Daddy pays for). They dabble in some overseas feel-good low paid work/volunteering. Nowhere along that journey are opportunities to learn the value of money and time. Furthermore, friends tend to be mirror images of that so they don't even get to see other opportunities out there. They don't have friends who finished a 4 year business degree and are now making 100,000$+/year working for Suncor/IMO/Any Company with a defined benefit pension, stock options and benefits out of the ass. Or bros with 2 year technical degrees who do some welding/pipefiting and take home 150,000. Or a freaking uneducated truck driver who gets fed and drives a stupid bus from an oil sand pit back and forth for 200,000.

 

So any financial questions are immedicately out of touch with reality because they aren't even next to a fence to judge the other side of the lawn.

 

 

Anyone that answers yes to the original question needs to be a darling and donate $200,000 to their local shelter to put their money where their mouth is. Residents are paid "well" if you ignore the fact that 15% of my salary goes towards interest on my student loans, tuition fees, CMPA insurance and parking.

Damn CMPA costs have been skyrocketing over the past couple years too.

[mikenewman333]

If you guys think becoming MDs = 9s and 10s falling into your lap and wanting to f*ck you, you're in for a rude awakening. 

 

I mean sure, there will be some "golddiggers" willing to suck you dry for your money, but why would you date them anyways, they don't like YOU, they like your MONEY!

 

Plus, I have friends in med school already, and either they are too busy to pursue women, or they are still not attractive/awkward to land a 9 or 10. 

 

Assuming you were always confident in undergrad with women, and you have decently good looks (7-10 wise), then yes, being a doctor will make you attractive to those 9s and 10s, but you were already attractive enough to begin with (and could probably date 9s and 10s before an MD as well). 

 

And yeah, 500k sounds amazing, except your entire 20s is gone along with any hope of having free time in the future, basically just caring for your wife and children in your mansion where you never get to sleep anyway. I would glady take a pay cut in order to have more free time, then to have a lot of money but no free time. 

[rmorelan]

If you guys think becoming MDs = 9s and 10s falling into your lap and wanting to f*ck you, you're in for a rude awakening. 

 

I mean sure, there will be some "golddiggers" willing to suck you dry for your money, but why would you date them anyways, they don't like YOU, they like your MONEY!

 

Plus, I have friends in med school already, and either they are too busy to pursue women, or they are still not attractive/awkward to land a 9 or 10. 

 

Assuming you were always confident in undergrad with women, and you have decently good looks (7-10 wise), then yes, being a doctor will make you attractive to those 9s and 10s, but you were already attractive enough to begin with (and could probably date 9s and 10s before an MD as well). 

 

And yeah, 500k sounds amazing, except your entire 20s is gone along with any hope of having free time in the future, basically just caring for your wife and children in your mansion where you never get to sleep anyway. I would glady take a pay cut in order to have more free time, then to have a lot of money but no free time. 

 

I think a lot of doctors would give up some money for more free time actually. Even if you take that 500K (rather extreme amount to say the least, and also with the upcoming funding changes good luck getting close to that) you are still working 60-70 hours a week in many cases, and often at weird hours. You don't exactly have a lot of time to actually use that money quite often

 

You really have to enjoy the process of medicine for this to make a lot of sense for that reason more than anything. You are doing it most of your waking free hours so it better be something you actually want to do. True you can use the money to make up some of it if you are miserable but man that is a steep curve to overcome. Otherwise yeah your 20s, and let's be honest in this modern medical work, often to your mid 30s are consumed with the process of your training (for specialty the bare minimum now is likely 32 years old - 17 high school, 21 start medical school, 25 start residency, 30 start fellowships which can be 1-2 years, 32 start as a staff. All assuming NOTHING is delayed - no not getting accepted initially, no graduate degrees, no issues getting a starting job or being stuck with a few locums. Oh and as starting job you often are not a full partner yet so you have a few years of proving yourself before you move up the food chain in many academic situations. all this leaves you around 35 I would say prior to being really "settled". We are talking 17 years here - or to say it another way doctors have a grand total of about 30 years of education from the point of starting primary school to actually become a full doctor).

 

Ha, I mean I really enjoy the entire process of this personally. This is really a lot of fun, even when it is a lot of work. Still let no one say it is easy and without cost.

 

Oh and to add just a touch to the rest of this attraction aspect - if you sudden get the money and are attractive at say age 35 that probably isn't the party time most people are envisioning here Before that point you are just a person earning at MOST 75K a year who is in debit up to their eyeballs, and has limited availability as they work 80+ hours a week with a schedule they cannot control and probably has to move around the country usually up to 4 separate times for years with limited control (med school, residency, fellowships, job). There are also entire years when you are completely unavailable (like say year 5 for instance when prepping for your exam). I would say it is quite common for the partner of a resident to be the actual breadwinner here for many years in a committed relationship.

[rmorelan]

Damn CMPA costs have been skyrocketing over the past couple years too.

at least we get 80% back on that

[Arztin]

I think a lot of doctors would give up some money for more free time actually. Even if you take that 500K (rather extreme amount to say the least, and also with the upcoming funding changes good luck getting close to that) you are still working 60-70 hours a week in many cases, and often at weird hours. You don't exactly have a lot of time to actually use that money quite often

 

You really have to enjoy the process of medicine for this to make a lot of sense for that reason more than anything. You are doing it most of your waking free hours so it better be something you actually want to do. True you can use the money to make up some of it if you are miserable but man that is a steep curve to overcome. Otherwise yeah your 20s, and let's be honest in this modern medical work, often to your mid 30s are consumed with the process of your training (for specialty the bare minimum now is likely 32 years old - 17 high school, 21 start medical school, 25 start residency, 30 start fellowships which can be 1-2 years, 32 start as a staff. All assuming NOTHING is delayed - no not getting accepted initially, no graduate degrees, no issues getting a starting job or being stuck with a few locums. Oh and as starting job you often are not a full partner yet so you have a few years of proving yourself before you move up the food chain in many academic situations. all this leaves you around 35 I would say prior to being really "settled". We are talking 17 years here - or to say it another way doctors have a grand total of about 30 years of education from the point of starting primary school to actually become a full doctor).

 

Ha, I mean I really enjoy the entire process of this personally. This is really a lot of fun, even when it is a lot of work. Still let no one say it is easy and without cost.

 

Oh and to add just a touch to the rest of this attraction aspect - if you sudden get the money and are attractive at say age 35 that probably isn't the party time most people are envisioning here Before that point you are just a person earning at MOST 75K a year who is in debit up to their eyeballs, and has limited availability as they work 80+ hours a week with a schedule they cannot control and probably has to move around the country usually up to 4 separate times for years with limited control (med school, residency, fellowships, job). There are also entire years when you are completely unavailable (like say year 5 for instance when prepping for your exam). I would say it is quite common for the partner of a resident to be the actual breadwinner here for many years in a committed relationship.

I love every single word of this post. Also, I'm just going to add to what you said that some specialists don't find jobs now and do locums left and right...

[thsc]

I think a lot of doctors would give up some money for more free time actually. Even if you take that 500K (rather extreme amount to say the least, and also with the upcoming funding changes good luck getting close to that) you are still working 60-70 hours a week in many cases, and often at weird hours. You don't exactly have a lot of time to actually use that money quite often

 

You really have to enjoy the process of medicine for this to make a lot of sense for that reason more than anything. You are doing it most of your waking free hours so it better be something you actually want to do. True you can use the money to make up some of it if you are miserable but man that is a steep curve to overcome. Otherwise yeah your 20s, and let's be honest in this modern medical work, often to your mid 30s are consumed with the process of your training (for specialty the bare minimum now is likely 32 years old - 17 high school, 21 start medical school, 25 start residency, 30 start fellowships which can be 1-2 years, 32 start as a staff. All assuming NOTHING is delayed - no not getting accepted initially, no graduate degrees, no issues getting a starting job or being stuck with a few locums. Oh and as starting job you often are not a full partner yet so you have a few years of proving yourself before you move up the food chain in many academic situations. all this leaves you around 35 I would say prior to being really "settled". We are talking 17 years here - or to say it another way doctors have a grand total of about 30 years of education from the point of starting primary school to actually become a full doctor).

 

Ha, I mean I really enjoy the entire process of this personally. This is really a lot of fun, even when it is a lot of work. Still let no one say it is easy and without cost.

 

Oh and to add just a touch to the rest of this attraction aspect - if you sudden get the money and are attractive at say age 35 that probably isn't the party time most people are envisioning here Before that point you are just a person earning at MOST 75K a year who is in debit up to their eyeballs, and has limited availability as they work 80+ hours a week with a schedule they cannot control and probably has to move around the country usually up to 4 separate times for years with limited control (med school, residency, fellowships, job). There are also entire years when you are completely unavailable (like say year 5 for instance when prepping for your exam). I would say it is quite common for the partner of a resident to be the actual breadwinner here for many years in a committed relationship.

I also like the wording of this, but damn man, you make it look so depressing lol. 

[iosmed]

Couldn't have asked for a better time for a discussion like this to be on premed101. I'm curious to get some insight from either rmorelan and ralk especially; if you're aiming for family med what is a realistic earning potential you can expect if you want to work in the GTA specifically. I'm at a point where I'm debating between a career in medicine or pursuing a field like investment banking or management consulting.

 

The issue with the latter is that I would have to attend Ivey at Western to get the appropriate recruiting environment to be successful in landing a job in such a competitive industry, arguably more competitive than getting into a Canadian medical school if you're aiming for a top firm - that's an argument for another time though. Ivey has an average around 80 with vey low standard deviations, having an 85 means you're essentially a top student in the program so it would eliminate the chance of having a solid GPA for medical school, plus the cost of the program is pretty expensive so I wouldn't be looking to do medschool after it anyway.

 

I know myself well and I've already eliminated the thought of doing anything else than family medicine seeing how it is difficult for specialists to find jobs and I've seen what my family doctor does and I can honestly see myself doing it. My concern is that I might be pursuing medicine for the stability, relatively high income.

 

Do you to have an innate passion for anatomy or physiology to want to pursue something like family med? I find myself more interested in reading bloomberg articles and reading up on the performance of companies, rather than medical literature.

 

Also, I have a fear of needles and I am not the best at looking at really bad injuries. My fear is that I've worked extremely hard for my GPA in science courses and I don't want to lose out on a career that is stable, I have somewhat of an interest in.       

[iosmed]

Also the thought of debt scares the hell out of me, that's why I would avoid international schools and american schools. I think medical school is pretty affordable in Canada and there's more security. I generally reflect on that Steve Job Stanford commencement speech where he mentioned the cost of Reed college to his parents, so financially those schools just don't make sense to me. 

 

Nevertheless, it's the thought of not wanting to go to the states or international that also makes me question if I should be pursuing medicine, as there are an inordinate number of individuals that go to these schools each year from Canada and bear the risks. 

[ploughboy]

however if the profession became like an apprenticeship where you learn on the job (yea i know how ridiculous and unrealistic that is ) then potentially maybe, but only if i didnt have to spend so much damn time in school.

Um...what sort of model do you think medical education currently follows?

 

Yours sincerely,

 

An eighth-year apprentice

[ploughboy]

Third, residency is PAID! It is a good wage and good benefits too. I understand that it's a lot of long hours and all of that, but it's just paid work like any other.

You should save this quote, if and when you matriculate, and read it some morning when you're post-call from a service - heavy rotation. I'm curious whether your perspective changes...

 

Edited to add: Actually, read it some morning when you're post-call and somebody's mother died because you f-'d up.  Then tell me it's paid work like any other.

[ploughboy]

"Man, did I love this game.  I'd have played for food money.  It was the game, the sounds, the smells.  Did you ever hold a ball or a glove to your face?  ...  I used to love travelling on the trains from town to town.  The hotels, brass spittoons in the lobbies, brass beds in the rooms.  It was the crowd, rising to their feet when the ball was hit deep.  Shoot, I'd play for nothing." - "Shoeless" Joe Jackson, Field of Dreams

 

 

I joined this thread after it turned into a bun fight between the simple and the uninformed, but for what it's worth here's my $0.02

There are times that I have the best job in the world. Last Thursday I was in the back of an ambulance with a couple of thoracic surgeons and a perfusionist, booking it down the QEW with lights on and sirens blaring, because there was somebody who was really sick and we had the skills to help fix her. I remember thinking "I can't believe they pay me to do this!"

And there are other times (like every time I'm on call, honestly) when it's 4AM and I'm dealing with the sort of stupid situation that only happens when the sensible people of the world are safe in their beds, that I think "They can't pay me enough to keep doing this!"

$70k/yr? No thanks, I'll deliver mail for the post office...

[Wartortle]

I think the ones who can give any piece of worth while evidence about supposed women/men clawing to get at them are the guys/gals in residency.

[rmorelan]

I also like the wording of this, but damn man, you make it look so depressing lol. 

 

ha, well my intention is to be realistic - and again this is coming from someone that really enjoys what I do. This is fun stuff really. I am slowly getting to the point now where yeah I can look at an medical scan and make some "good catches" that impact patients. I am beginning as well to see myself separate away from the other types of doctors and answer questions other staff doctors don't know from other services. Years of training and work and just now I can begin to see the point where I can really do this and be an expert. Still far to go but yet I can see it. One day if all goes well I will be the one others look at in a dire situation for immediate help in reversing soon to be permanent brain damage and say yeah, I can fix that - let's get to work. That though is one of the things that keeps me going. 

 

It all goes back to actually enjoying the job - money is great but again 80+ hours a week on this and for those starting off it just gets progressively more and more work as you go along (just a reminder staff do not get post call days, and yeah they can be up working hard for 36 hours straight in many fields).

 

now there are of course other less demanding branches - family medicine of course is more like 55-60 hours a week (using CMA survey answers). Still that is a lot of time and say 200-250K income (currently, and again the government is going after that but is not anything to sneeze at money wise).

 

Bottom line is I really do believe that you invest so much of yourself into this, so much time/energy/effort/identity that I would hope you love what you do and the process required to do it. Maybe not all of it but yeah overall. If you view that entire 17 years of training as time flushed down the toilet just to get somewhere then wow, that is arguably 20-25% of your LIFE you are discounting. Just think about that for a second. Your LIFE. Do you really want to hate 20-25% of your total precious time? Let alone some would argue the best time as well (I would challenge that assertion though but still).

[JohnGrisham]

ha, well my intention is to be realistic - and again this is coming from someone that really enjoys what I do. This is fun stuff really. I am slowly getting to the point now where yeah I can look at an medical scan and make some "good catches" that impact patients. I am beginning as well to see myself separate away from the other types of doctors and answer questions other staff doctors don't know from other services. Years of training and work and just now I can begin to see the point where I can really do this and be an expert. Still far to go but yet I can see it. One day if all goes well I will be the one others look at in a dire situation for immediate help in reversing soon to be permanent brain damage and say yeah, I can fix that - let's get to work. That though is one of the things that keeps me going. 

 

It all goes back to actually enjoying the job - money is great but again 80+ hours a week on this and for those starting off it just gets progressively more and more work as you go along (just a reminder staff do not get post call days, and yeah they can be up working hard for 36 hours straight in many fields).

 

now there are of course other less demanding branches - family medicine of course is more like 55-60 hours a week (using CMA survey answers). Still that is a lot of time and say 200-250K income (currently, and again the government is going after that but is not anything to sneeze at money wise).

 

Bottom line is I really do believe that you invest so much of yourself into this, so much time/energy/effort/identity that I would hope you love what you do and the process required to do it. Maybe not all of it but yeah overall. If you view that entire 17 years of training as time flushed down the toilet just to get somewhere then wow, that is arguably 20-25% of your LIFE you are discounting. Just think about that for a second. Your LIFE. Do you really want to hate 20-25% of your total precious time? Let alone some would argue the best time as well (I would challenge that assertion though but still).

You really do provide sage thoughts and commentary. 

 

Yoda would be proud.

[bloh]

Bottom line is I really do believe that you invest so much of yourself into this, so much time/energy/effort/identity that I would hope you love what you do and the process required to do it. Maybe not all of it but yeah overall. If you view that entire 17 years of training as time flushed down the toilet just to get somewhere then wow, that is arguably 20-25% of your LIFE you are discounting. Just think about that for a second. Your LIFE. Do you really want to hate 20-25% of your total precious time? Let alone some would argue the best time as well (I would challenge that assertion though but still).

Well put! Most surgeons tell you as you go through medical schools that "if there's anything else you could see yourself doing, do that instead". That's in relation to CARMS and picking a residency but to be honest, that applies to medicine in general.